Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn? Forum

[skers]

It should also be noted that making any conclusions based on the incomplete data we have now is retarded.

Really? How often in life do you have complete data? Our conclusions are, to be certain, imperfect, but I'd hardly call it "retarded."

I'm mostly referring to OP making conclusions about v10 employment when he's basing everything off of incomplete data for the v10 and just taking this year into account. That is retarded.

[IAFG]

It should also be noted that making any conclusions based on the incomplete data we have now is retarded.

Really? How often in life do you have complete data? Our conclusions are, to be certain, imperfect, but I'd hardly call it "retarded."

I'm mostly referring to OP making conclusions about v10 employment when he's basing everything off of incomplete data for the v10 and just taking this year into account. That is retarded.

I guess it's just that, to some extent, everyone who chooses a school is forced to do exactly this.

[skers]

It should also be noted that making any conclusions based on the incomplete data we have now is retarded.

Really? How often in life do you have complete data? Our conclusions are, to be certain, imperfect, but I'd hardly call it "retarded."

I'm mostly referring to OP making conclusions about v10 employment when he's basing everything off of incomplete data for the v10 and just taking this year into account. That is retarded.

I guess it's just that, to some extent, everyone who chooses a school is forced to do exactly this.

That's fair, but we don't yet have data this year for Wachtell, S&C, Weil, or Cleary. That's half of the NYC based v-10s. Any conclusion on the data we have is shaky until we at least have the full v-10 data for this year, and shaky in a way that's distinct and beyond the shot in the dark pretty much everyone takes in choosing a law school.

What I'm getting at is data transparency and info is great. There is a problem when 0L's look at one year's data and make broad conclusions like Cornell's a festering TTT based on NLJ250 data from two years ago or the swing to Cornell's a big law powerhouse based on last year's data. Although I suppose there's nothing we can do about TLS' data extrapolation derp.

[Anonymous User]

For the Law Review members of the class of 2012, roughly 33 percent went to Chicago, roughly 25 percent went DC, and then the rest are split between New York and California (around 21 percent for each location).

This is probably even a little atypical. My year (pre-ITE), I can only think of one coif person who went to NYC (Wachtell). Most clerked and then split into thirds -- a third stayed in Chicago (almost all at KSM or Barlit), a third went to DC (lots to firms, some to bigfed), and a third went elsewhere. Of the "elsewhere," I'd even guess that the lion's share went to CA and not NYC.

Though a lot of this may be the nature of the beast. The top 10% LR types are much more likely to go the litigation route, and the V10 hierarchy matters a lot less in that sphere. (For example, you could easily make the argument that Kirkland and W&C and WH and Quinn and Boies and GDC and Paul Weiss are superior -- and more prestigious -- litigation shops to anything in the V10 except maybe Wachtell.)

I agree that it is atypical. This year (C/O 2013), it seems like everybody I've talked to is doing a DC firm like W&C / Kellogg / etc, a California firm like Quinn / Keker / Munger / etc, a Texas firm like Susman, or a Chicago firm like Kirkland / Sidley. I think a couple are doing Wachtell, and a couple more are doing NYC V5. It really seems like the Law Review folks are generally not attracted to NYC.

I agree with your general point that LR folks are less inclined to want to work in NYC. But I think its wrong to make it seem like everyone on the LR is getting the most prestigious firms in each area. There are folks heading to not-so-elite firms like Latham or Arnold & Porter.

Not everyone going to DC is heading to W&C or not everyone in LA is heading to MTO. Plus I don't think anyone is at Susman.

[Old Gregg]

There are folks heading to not-so-elite firms like Latham or Arnold & Porter.

Arnold & Porter is pretty elite...

[Anonymous User]

Not everyone going to DC is heading to W&C or not everyone in LA is heading to MTO. Plus I don't think anyone is at Susman.

Are you at UChicago? I can think of at least one person off the top of my head who is going to Susman.

(And agree with Fresh Prince—I've always thought of A&P as one of the top five DC firms.)

[Emma.]

Wrong forum, but td;lr, Chicago's a no-brainer if you get into all of those schools. The drastically smaller class sizes, combined with the fact that it's actually able to compete with the NYC powerhouses on their home turf, is a massive advantage.

Judging by the many kids in my class at UChi that landed Wachtell, S&C, Simpson Thatcher, Davis Polk etc., I actually think this is is TCR.

[chasgoose]

Wrong forum, but td;lr, Chicago's a no-brainer if you get into all of those schools. The drastically smaller class sizes, combined with the fact that it's actually able to compete with the NYC powerhouses on their home turf, is a massive advantage.

Judging by the many kids in my class at UChi that landed Wachtell, S&C, Simpson Thatcher, Davis Polk etc., I actually think this is is TCR.

Oh lovable pro-Chicago trolling. Based on this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=172119, I'm not totally convinced the above is true. I know these are accepted offers and not offers extended, but lets just look at them for the sake of argument.

Although there are tons of firms, lets just go through these four.

Wachtell: First even basing a law school choice on your chances to get a job at this firm is stupid, but CLS has the most Wachtell associates of any law school and I have to imagine that NYU would fare better than a U of C candidate all things being equal just because of the ties between the NYU and the firm. Once again, though we are talking at most 2-4 people.

S&C: No evidence in that thread above, but they have pretty severe ranking cut-offs at all three schools that they are loath to violate. Statistically your chances are pretty even at all three if you need to be top 25% to get an offer.

Simpson Thacher: This is where the whole firms go deeper at Chicago thing starts to break down. Columbia didn't send that many, but NYU sent a higher percentage of its 2L class there than Chicago. Meaning that after you adjust for class size, NYU still did "better."

DPW: Chicago is sending 3, while NYU is sending 23 and CLS is sending 16. NYU/CLS are only between 2-3x bigger, yet they are sending almost 8x and 5x more SA's respectively.

Once again, of course this information is skewed because it only reflects accepted offers and Chicago grads don't want NYC as much as NYU/CLS does, but to call it the "no-brainer" choice of CCN based on NYC placement is straight up dumb. I'm not trying to say CLS/NYU are better (I bet if we were able to compare the number of offers extended those would look pretty similar among the three schools), I'm just trying to point out that the whole "Chicago is smaller and firms go deeper so its better" argument doesn't really have that much factual support.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Wrong forum, but td;lr, Chicago's a no-brainer if you get into all of those schools. The drastically smaller class sizes, combined with the fact that it's actually able to compete with the NYC powerhouses on their home turf, is a massive advantage.

Judging by the many kids in my class at UChi that landed Wachtell, S&C, Simpson Thatcher, Davis Polk etc., I actually think this is is TCR.

Oh lovable pro-Chicago trolling. Based on this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=172119, I'm not totally convinced the above is true. I know these are accepted offers and not offers extended, but lets just look at them for the sake of argument.

Although there are tons of firms, lets just go through these four.

Wachtell: First even basing a law school choice on your chances to get a job at this firm is stupid, but CLS has the most Wachtell associates of any law school and I have to imagine that NYU would fare better than a U of C candidate all things being equal just because of the ties between the NYU and the firm. Once again, though we are talking at most 2-4 people.

S&C: No evidence in that thread above, but they have pretty severe ranking cut-offs at all three schools that they are loath to violate. Statistically your chances are pretty even at all three if you need to be top 25% to get an offer.

Simpson Thacher: This is where the whole firms go deeper at Chicago thing starts to break down. Columbia didn't send that many, but NYU sent a higher percentage of its 2L class there than Chicago. Meaning that after you adjust for class size, NYU still did "better."

DPW: Chicago is sending 3, while NYU is sending 23 and CLS is sending 16. NYU/CLS are only between 2-3x bigger, yet they are sending almost 8x and 5x more SA's respectively.

Once again, of course this information is skewed because it only reflects accepted offers and Chicago grads don't want NYC as much as NYU/CLS does, but to call it the "no-brainer" choice of CCN based on NYC placement is straight up dumb. I'm not trying to say CLS/NYU are better (I bet if we were able to compare the number of offers extended those would look pretty similar among the three schools), I'm just trying to point out that the whole "Chicago is smaller and firms go deeper so its better" argument doesn't really have that much factual support.

But... rigor....

[Old Gregg]

Wrong forum, but td;lr, Chicago's a no-brainer if you get into all of those schools. The drastically smaller class sizes, combined with the fact that it's actually able to compete with the NYC powerhouses on their home turf, is a massive advantage.

Judging by the many kids in my class at UChi that landed Wachtell, S&C, Simpson Thatcher, Davis Polk etc., I actually think this is is TCR.

Oh lovable pro-Chicago trolling. Based on this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=172119, I'm not totally convinced the above is true. I know these are accepted offers and not offers extended, but lets just look at them for the sake of argument.

Although there are tons of firms, lets just go through these four.

Wachtell: First even basing a law school choice on your chances to get a job at this firm is stupid, but CLS has the most Wachtell associates of any law school and I have to imagine that NYU would fare better than a U of C candidate all things being equal just because of the ties between the NYU and the firm. Once again, though we are talking at most 2-4 people.

S&C: No evidence in that thread above, but they have pretty severe ranking cut-offs at all three schools that they are loath to violate. Statistically your chances are pretty even at all three if you need to be top 25% to get an offer.

Simpson Thacher: This is where the whole firms go deeper at Chicago thing starts to break down. Columbia didn't send that many, but NYU sent a higher percentage of its 2L class there than Chicago. Meaning that after you adjust for class size, NYU still did "better."

DPW: Chicago is sending 3, while NYU is sending 23 and CLS is sending 16. NYU/CLS are only between 2-3x bigger, yet they are sending almost 8x and 5x more SA's respectively.

Once again, of course this information is skewed because it only reflects accepted offers and Chicago grads don't want NYC as much as NYU/CLS does, but to call it the "no-brainer" choice of CCN based on NYC placement is straight up dumb. I'm not trying to say CLS/NYU are better (I bet if we were able to compare the number of offers extended those would look pretty similar among the three schools), I'm just trying to point out that the whole "Chicago is smaller and firms go deeper so its better" argument doesn't really have that much factual support.

But... rigor....

lol emma's analysis is about as un-rigorous as it gets. jesus

[Flash]

Wrong forum, but td;lr, Chicago's a no-brainer if you get into all of those schools. The drastically smaller class sizes, combined with the fact that it's actually able to compete with the NYC powerhouses on their home turf, is a massive advantage.

Judging by the many kids in my class at UChi that landed Wachtell, S&C, Simpson Thatcher, Davis Polk etc., I actually think this is is TCR.

Oh lovable pro-Chicago trolling. Based on this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=172119, I'm not totally convinced the above is true. I know these are accepted offers and not offers extended, but lets just look at them for the sake of argument.

Although there are tons of firms, lets just go through these four.

Wachtell: First even basing a law school choice on your chances to get a job at this firm is stupid, but CLS has the most Wachtell associates of any law school and I have to imagine that NYU would fare better than a U of C candidate all things being equal just because of the ties between the NYU and the firm. Once again, though we are talking at most 2-4 people.

S&C: No evidence in that thread above, but they have pretty severe ranking cut-offs at all three schools that they are loath to violate. Statistically your chances are pretty even at all three if you need to be top 25% to get an offer.

Simpson Thacher: This is where the whole firms go deeper at Chicago thing starts to break down. Columbia didn't send that many, but NYU sent a higher percentage of its 2L class there than Chicago. Meaning that after you adjust for class size, NYU still did "better."

DPW: Chicago is sending 3, while NYU is sending 23 and CLS is sending 16. NYU/CLS are only between 2-3x bigger, yet they are sending almost 8x and 5x more SA's respectively.

Once again, of course this information is skewed because it only reflects accepted offers and Chicago grads don't want NYC as much as NYU/CLS does, but to call it the "no-brainer" choice of CCN based on NYC placement is straight up dumb. I'm not trying to say CLS/NYU are better (I bet if we were able to compare the number of offers extended those would look pretty similar among the three schools), I'm just trying to point out that the whole "Chicago is smaller and firms go deeper so its better" argument doesn't really have that much factual support.

That data wouldn't be from Emma's class.

[Bronck]

That data wouldn't be from Emma's class.

Profile says class of 2013.

The linked data is for people who did OCI Summer 2011, which means they do their 2L SA in 2012 and graduate in 2013.

[Flash]

That data wouldn't be from Emma's class.

Profile says class of 2013.

The linked data is for people who did OCI Summer 2011, which means they do their 2L SA in 2012 and graduate in 2013.

I thought the data was graduating class of 12 who did their 2L summer in 11?

[5ky]

That data wouldn't be from Emma's class.

Profile says class of 2013.

The linked data is for people who did OCI Summer 2011, which means they do their 2L SA in 2012 and graduate in 2013.

I thought the data was graduating class of 12 who did their 2L summer in 11?

No, that's for the class of 2013.

2012 summer associates (the data from the thread) are part of the class of 2013.