UIUC v. IUB v. Michigan State Forum

[jpickman]

If my cycle ended today I would probably have to choose from UIUC (50% tuition), Hastings, IUB ($10,000/year), MSU (75% tuition scholarship), or Wayne State (full tuition scholarship). Ultimately, I would like to work in private equity in a major legal market, so MSU is probably out. 50% tuition at UIUC sounds great, but I'm not sure how much the recent scandal will affect their students' placement in Chicago, and the idea of living at home, going to Wayne State, and graduating with zero debt is always lurking. What do you guys think is my best bet?

[Grizz]

For your career goals, none of those. You want to work at a large law firm; none of these schools give you a good shot at that. Retake or don't go.

[romothesavior]

For your career goals, none of those. You want to work at a large law firm; none of these schools give you a good shot at that. Retake or don't go.

Yeah this. None of these schools place over 20% into NLJ firms. Illinois is the only one that comes close, and the rest of them place less than 10%. Which means your odds of doing "private equity in a major legal market" are less than 10% from any of these schools.

[Wart]

If my cycle ended today I would probably have to choose from UIUC (50% tuition), Hastings, IUB ($10,000/year), MSU (75% tuition scholarship), or Wayne State (full tuition scholarship). Ultimately, I would like to work in private equity in a major legal market, so MSU is probably out. 50% tuition at UIUC sounds great, but I'm not sure how much the recent scandal will affect their students' placement in Chicago, and the idea of living at home, going to Wayne State, and graduating with zero debt is always lurking. What do you guys think is my best bet?

First off, ignore Grizz. He's spent 15k comments trying to discourage people. It will be very difficult to meet your goal from these schools, but it is far from impossible. You just need to be prepared to outwork everyone, and accept the fact that you may have to take an alternate career path if things don't pan out. You will have to have excellent grades.

That said, imho the best option here is UIUC. For the following reasons:

1. The only other school on your list that has decent access to a major legal market is Hastings in San Fran. Living in San Fran will cost you about 4x (if not more) as much in living expenses. And since it looks like you are debt averse, Champaign is better. It is dirt cheap to live in Central Illinois.

2. The scandal at UIUC shouldn't affect your decision. The scandal has had no effect on Chicago hiring and it's not going to. UIUC's reputation (for better or worse) is already set in stone in the Chicago market. It may effect entry into other big markets, but the main people who are going to be affected are the fringe good students. Scandal or not, you're were never going to get big law in a city other than Chicago if you aren't at the top of the class. If you finish in the top 10%, you'll have a shot anywhere, so long as you hustle. If anyone, the scandal will hurt the people in the top 10-20% who may have had a shot before but not longer do. This is not hard fact but is what I've observed so far, so take it for what it's work

3. UIUC's access to Chicago is legit. Not every gets a job in Chi. But if you do well, it's not that hard to get a good job there.

[romothesavior]

It will be very difficult to meet your goal from these schools, but it is far from impossible.

It's very difficult to win money at the roulette table, but not impossible. Should I start going to the casino more often?

No one said it is impossible. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

[Grizz]

First off, ignore Grizz. He's spent 15k comments trying to discourage people. It will be very difficult to meet your goal from these schools, but it is far from impossible. You just need to be prepared to outwork everyone, and accept the fact that you may have to take an alternate career path if things don't pan out. You will have to have excellent grades.

That said, imho the best option here is UIUC. For the following reasons:

1. The only other school on your list that has decent access to a major legal market is Hastings in San Fran. Living in San Fran will cost you about 4x (if not more) as much in living expenses. And since it looks like you are debt averse, Champaign is better. It is dirt cheap to live in Central Illinois.

2. The scandal at UIUC shouldn't affect your decision. The scandal has had no effect on Chicago hiring and it's not going to. UIUC's reputation (for better or worse) is already set in stone in the Chicago market. It may effect entry into other big markets, but the main people who are going to be affected are the fringe good students. Scandal or not, you're were never going to get big law in a city other than Chicago if you aren't at the top of the class. If you finish in the top 10%, you'll have a shot anywhere, so long as you hustle. If anyone, the scandal will hurt the people in the top 10-20% who may have had a shot before but not longer do. This is not hard fact but is what I've observed so far, so take it for what it's work

3. UIUC's access to Chicago is legit. Not every gets a job in Chi. But if you do well, it's not that hard to get a good job there.

General rule: If you can't achieve your goals with grades around the median (the most likely outcome), don't go to the school. 80% chance you won't be top 20%. I'd bet against you. And you can't just "outwork" everyone. Spoken like someone whose never taken a law school exam.

[Wart]

It will be very difficult to meet your goal from these schools, but it is far from impossible.

It's very difficult to win money at the roulette table, but not impossible. Should I start going to the casino more often?

No one said it is impossible. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

I didn't quote you or say that you said this. Stop being sensitive.

And if some guy says "hey, which casino gives me better chances at winning at roulette, Casino X or Casino Y?". Telling them "neither, don't go to a casino" is not answering their question.

[bk1]

And if some guy says "hey, which casino gives me better chances at winning at roulette, Casino X or Casino Y?". Telling them "neither, don't go to a casino" is not answering their question.

It's not answering their question, but it is giving them the most useful advice.

+1 to everything Grizz/Romo said.

[romothesavior]

If someone waves at you and is about to get hit by a bus, do you wave back or do you yell "HEY WATCH OUT FOR THAT BUS!"

[Wart]

General rule: If you can't achieve your goals with grades around the median (the most likely outcome), don't go to the school. 80% chance you won't be top 20%. I'd bet against you. And you can't just "outwork" everyone. Spoken like someone whose never taken a law school exam.

He's not asking if he has a better than 50% chance. He's asking, which of the options listed gives him the best chances of meeting his goal.

And it's amusing how whenever someone disagrees with you, you accuse them of being a 0L.

[Grizz]

General rule: If you can't achieve your goals with grades around the median (the most likely outcome), don't go to the school. 80% chance you won't be top 20%. I'd bet against you. And you can't just "outwork" everyone. Spoken like someone whose never taken a law school exam.

He's not asking if he has a better than 50% chance. He's asking, which of the options listed gives him the best chances of meeting his goal.

To wit:

It's not answering their question, but it is giving them the most useful advice.

Also:

And it's amusing how whenever someone disagrees with you, you accuse them of being a 0L.

Well you sound like someone whose never taken a law school exam.

[romothesavior]

He's asking, which of the options listed gives him the best chances of meeting his goal.

Actually, if you want to get technical and split hairs, OP asked, "What do you guys think is my best bet?"

And the resounding answer to that seems to be "Don't go to these schools," which is an answer to his question.

[Wart]

He's asking, which of the options listed gives him the best chances of meeting his goal.

Actually, if you want to get technical and split hairs, OP asked, "What do you guys think is my best bet?"

And the resounding answer to that seems to be "Don't go to these schools," which is an answer to his question.

It's clear that the question was in reference to the options he listed immediately before given that he created a poll that doesn't have an "other" option.

[jpickman]

You guys really don't need to get into an argument over this. I realize that each of the schools I listed are very regional, as are most law schools outside the T14. I'm just interested in knowing what school will offer the best job prospects post graduation.

[romothesavior]

You guys really don't need to get into an argument over this. I realize that each of the schools I listed are very regional, as are most law schools outside the T14. I'm just interested in knowing what school will offer the best job prospects post graduation.

The answer is clearly U of I. They have the "best" job prospects of this list. However, if your goal is "private equity work in a primary legal market," then I will again emphasize that your odds of that happening from UIUC are about 10% or less, based on their current placement. So best is still bad.

Good luck.

[Grizz]

He's asking, which of the options listed gives him the best chances of meeting his goal.

Actually, if you want to get technical and split hairs, OP asked, "What do you guys think is my best bet?"

And the resounding answer to that seems to be "Don't go to these schools," which is an answer to his question.

It's clear that the question was in reference to the options he listed immediately before given that he created a poll that doesn't have an "other" option.

[Grizz]

You guys really don't need to get into an argument over this. I realize that each of the schools I listed are very regional, as are most law schools outside the T14. I'm just interested in knowing what school will offer the best job prospects post graduation.

It's not just that it's regional, it's that your best option, UIUC, places about 10% into biglaw firms (the firms that do what you want), and not all of those biglaw firms even have the practice area you want. So for your career goals, you have 3 options that probably won't get you there.

[Wart]

Well you sound like someone whose never taken a law school exam.

No need to sling mud Grizz. Anger is a weapon used only by one's opponent.

[ndirish2010]

Out of these options, balancing debt vs. jobs, Wayne State wins. I know you said you wanted to be in a major market and whatever, but if you do well at Wayne State you'll have a decent shot at the top Michigan firms. If you don't, at least you won't have debt. Choice should be between Wayne State and UofI.

[blackandyellow]

Out of these options, balancing debt vs. jobs, Wayne State wins. I know you said you wanted to be in a major market and whatever, but if you do well at Wayne State you'll have a decent shot at the top Michigan firms. If you don't, at least you won't have debt. Choice should be between Wayne State and UofI.

I disagree. Your best choice is UIUC. Only students in the top 10% at wayne have a chance at DETROIT biglaw. There are only like 5-10 firms in the metro area that pay detroit market salary of around 100k. Most of them take roughly 3 associates each. With UMich, MSU and UD I doubt they would take more than 1 student from wayne. Probably only 5% of the students from wayne actually get SA positions.

At UIUC if you are in the top 25%-1/3, (UIUC's nlj250 placement is roughly 20%) I think you will be competitive for something in the Detroit area. On top of that, you have an outside chance at Chicago biglaw.

The difference is roughly 70k between UIUC and Wayne. The problem is thatno debt + no job doesn't do you any good. You might as well not waste 3 years of your life. With IBR the sting of no job+ 70k isnt nearly as bad.
So you would be paying 70k for a roughly 20% chance of biglaw as compared to Wayne which gives you a 5% chance for biglaw.

[20130312]

I would like to work in private equity

Stopped reading here. Don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. That's what an MBA is for.

[jpickman]

I would like to work in private equity

Stopped reading here. Don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. That's what an MBA is for.

This is the second topic in which you've made a comment like this. You do realize that there are attorneys who work in private equity, dont you?; they need attorneys to complete all of their complex financial transcations.

[romothesavior]

I would like to work in private equity

Stopped reading here. Don't go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer. That's what an MBA is for.

This is the second topic in which you've made a comment like this. You do realize that there are attorneys who work in private equity, dont you?; they need attorneys to complete all of their complex financial transcations.

Yeah and close to zero of them go to any of these schools. Welcome to ITE.

[20130312]

Welcome to ITE.

This. At least if you have an MBA, you have transferrable skills to many more professions, whereas law school limits you to one: lawyering.

[jpickman]

Welcome to ITE.

This. At least if you have an MBA, you have transferrable skills to many more professions, whereas law school limits you to one: lawyering.

Thanks. If I wanted an MBA I would get an MBA.