Wake v. W&L Forum

[jerichosm]

Concerned with private sector employment in both VA and NC, Cost of living, and quality of education.

Tuition is not a factor.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks!

[auburnbelle89]

This is also relevant to my interests. I haven't visited W&L yet, but I got a good vibe from wake when I visited. I live in the region, and wake has a strong reputation (albeit not as strong as duke or UVA obviously. I've heard that if you want to stay in NC, it is better to go to unc because of alumni connections, but I am not familiar enough with the market to attest to how true that is. I know almost nothing about W&L yet, but I think it has a pretty good rep in the southeast if you are interested in that region. Outside of that, I don't know. FWIW, I like Winston-Salem as a town. My best friend lives there so I kinda have the insiders take on it.

[MrAnon]

no difference in education. rankings won't matter at this level. just go with whichever is most comfortable.

[Flappy Scribbleneck]

I am a 0l who has been lurking around trying to find info to answer similar questions for the last 12 months. I would be super surprised if you get useful information in this thread. I bet you get some PMs from current and former students urging you to take TLS with a grain of salt. And you will probably receive a variety of retake/consider your other options/prepare for shitlaw/so and so market is decimated type-posts from the normal cast of characters who are all well meaning and at the very least, extremely consistent.
Very few of the posters or the PMers seem to have legit experience. Those who do have some real experience lose their efficacy because they are so negative. They could be legitimately negative or just curmudgeons. Who knows? I hope this is the thread where we finally get some answers.

[bobbyh1919]

Why does W&L appear in every other thread in this forum?

[Gail]

Considering Wake as my #1 right now. This thread is very relevant to my interests.



For what it's worth, I didn't apply to W&L due to Virginia competition. NC isn't nearly as competitive and even without DC BigLaw places at a higher percentage in the NLJ250 than W&L.

That has to be considered, right?

[MrAnon]

I went to a similarly ranked T1 but not one of these schools if you want to know where my opinion comes from. I graduated already. I was rah-rah thrilled with my school when I started there through 1L but after that the love wore off.

[Flappy Scribbleneck]

Considering Wake as my #1 right now. This thread is very relevant to my interests.



For what it's worth, I didn't apply to W&L due to Virginia competition. NC isn't nearly as competitive and even without DC BigLaw places at a higher percentage in the NLJ250 than W&L.

That has to be considered, right?

Maybe I will try and prove myself wrong
From the Wake side, read the Wake Law Students Taking Questions thread, particularly the posts of moanderson who I found compelling because he is an unsure student disappointed in law school who ends up getting 2l SA biglaw (I think).
There are several threads about Virginia Law Market, and the elusive hiring partner appears in one of them (allegedly).

[MrAnon]

Considering Wake as my #1 right now. This thread is very relevant to my interests.



For what it's worth, I didn't apply to W&L due to Virginia competition. NC isn't nearly as competitive and even without DC BigLaw places at a higher percentage in the NLJ250 than W&L.

That has to be considered, right?

I doubt it matters very much.

[Flappy Scribbleneck]

I went to a similarly ranked T1 but not one of these schools if you want to know where my opinion comes from. I graduated already. I was rah-rah thrilled with my school when I started there through 1L but after that the love wore off.

Must compelling MrAnon post ever

[moandersen]

Maybe I will try and prove myself wrong
From the Wake side, read the Wake Law Students Taking Questions thread, particularly the posts of moanderson who I found compelling because he is an unsure student disappointed in law school who ends up getting 2l SA biglaw (I think).
There are several threads about Virginia Law Market, and the elusive hiring partner appears in one of them (allegedly).

Not sure how to respond to this other than you got me all wrong. I try to give my perspective and that is it. I have no idea what you are talking about when you refer to me being an "unsure student" or say I am "disappointed in law school" because I am neither. Just because I was successful in my job search doesnt mean I cant be honest with my concerns about the future of the school.

There are plenty of Wake students (1L and 2Ls, not sure about 3Ls) browsing TLS who would be more than happy to help you in your decision as long as you arent the jerk you make yourself out to be in this thread.

[romothesavior]

I am a 0l who has been lurking around trying to find info to answer similar questions for the last 12 months. I would be super surprised if you get useful information in this thread. I bet you get some PMs from current and former students urging you to take TLS with a grain of salt. And you will probably receive a variety of retake/consider your other options/prepare for shitlaw/so and so market is decimated type-posts from the normal cast of characters who are all well meaning and at the very least, extremely consistent.

Very few of the posters or the PMers seem to have legit experience. Those who do have some real experience lose their efficacy because they are so negative. They could be legitimately negative or just curmudgeons. Who knows? I hope this is the thread where we finally get some answers.

Or, alternatively, those of us who actually are in school or have graduated are, umm... right? Or the professors like Paul Campos and Brian Tamanaha... maybe they know a thing or two? Nope, that couldn't be it. Flappy Scribbleneck, I'm sure you nailed it brah.

OP, do you have full rides to each which is what makes tuition a non-factor? You're not looking at a huge difference between the schools and I'd go to where you feel the most comfortable. Wake has better NLJ 250 placement according to the latest Go-to-Law-Schools Report, but neither school is a placement powerhouse, and a high-salaried job from either will be tough. But if tuition is a non-factor thanks to scholarships, then the investment is a lower risk and working in a lower-income job after law school is not as big of a deal. Where are you from? If you have ties to NC or VA, that would make the decision a lot easier. Good luck.

[jerichosm]

I am a 0l who has been lurking around trying to find info to answer similar questions for the last 12 months. I would be super surprised if you get useful information in this thread. I bet you get some PMs from current and former students urging you to take TLS with a grain of salt. And you will probably receive a variety of retake/consider your other options/prepare for shitlaw/so and so market is decimated type-posts from the normal cast of characters who are all well meaning and at the very least, extremely consistent.

Very few of the posters or the PMers seem to have legit experience. Those who do have some real experience lose their efficacy because they are so negative. They could be legitimately negative or just curmudgeons. Who knows? I hope this is the thread where we finally get some answers.

Or, alternatively, those of us who actually are in school or have graduated are, umm... right? Or the professors like Paul Campos and Brian Tamanaha... maybe they know a thing or two? Nope, that couldn't be it. Flappy Scribbleneck, I'm sure you nailed it brah.

OP, do you have full rides to each which is what makes tuition a non-factor? You're not looking at a huge difference between the schools and I'd go to where you feel the most comfortable. Wake has better NLJ 250 placement according to the latest Go-to-Law-Schools Report, but neither school is a placement powerhouse, and a high-salaried job from either will be tough. But if tuition is a non-factor thanks to scholarships, then the investment is a lower risk and working in a lower-income job after law school is not as big of a deal. Where are you from? If you have ties to NC or VA, that would make the decision a lot easier. Good luck.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to receive full tuition offers from both schools. I am from Pennsylvania and do not have any real ties to either state, other than that both of my brothers live in the DC area (one in VA and one in MD). I would like to get involved in commercial or transactional law (I realize this is very unspecific, but obviously I wouldn't know just yet) because business is my forte and my passion.

[Grizz]

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to receive full tuition offers from both schools. I am from Pennsylvania and do not have any real ties to either state, other than that both of my brothers live in the DC area (one in VA and one in MD). I would like to get involved in commercial or transactional law (I realize this is very unspecific, but obviously I wouldn't know just yet) because business is my forte and my passion.

Both VA and NC are quite parochial. The market is so bad that even going to school in the region might not be enough; you're already handicapped by not being a homer. Law school isn't really the time to relocate. A buddy of mine was at UNC just ran into this problem at 2L OCI actually.

[MrAnon]

I am a 0l who has been lurking around trying to find info to answer similar questions for the last 12 months. I would be super surprised if you get useful information in this thread. I bet you get some PMs from current and former students urging you to take TLS with a grain of salt. And you will probably receive a variety of retake/consider your other options/prepare for shitlaw/so and so market is decimated type-posts from the normal cast of characters who are all well meaning and at the very least, extremely consistent.

Very few of the posters or the PMers seem to have legit experience. Those who do have some real experience lose their efficacy because they are so negative. They could be legitimately negative or just curmudgeons. Who knows? I hope this is the thread where we finally get some answers.

Or, alternatively, those of us who actually are in school or have graduated are, umm... right? Or the professors like Paul Campos and Brian Tamanaha... maybe they know a thing or two? Nope, that couldn't be it. Flappy Scribbleneck, I'm sure you nailed it brah.

OP, do you have full rides to each which is what makes tuition a non-factor? You're not looking at a huge difference between the schools and I'd go to where you feel the most comfortable. Wake has better NLJ 250 placement according to the latest Go-to-Law-Schools Report, but neither school is a placement powerhouse, and a high-salaried job from either will be tough. But if tuition is a non-factor thanks to scholarships, then the investment is a lower risk and working in a lower-income job after law school is not as big of a deal. Where are you from? If you have ties to NC or VA, that would make the decision a lot easier. Good luck.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to receive full tuition offers from both schools. I am from Pennsylvania and do not have any real ties to either state, other than that both of my brothers live in the DC area (one in VA and one in MD). I would like to get involved in commercial or transactional law (I realize this is very unspecific, but obviously I wouldn't know just yet) because business is my forte and my passion.

Then you ought to be working in a career that doesn't not involve leaving for law school or else you ought to possibly be considering business school. You are proclaiming you are good at X but you want to go to school for Y. Completely the wrong path. I get where you are going with it---you want to be a lawyer in that field. The schools are going to limit your options before your business career in law ever gets off the ground. Beyond that you need to understand lawyers work in service of business, they are mostly not on the front lines in business activity. If you want to be on front lines go find a job or keep the one you have.

[sunynp]

Another poster suggested this in a thread about Cardozo and W&L - ask for employment statistics that are very specific for the past class. I have heard that W&L sends that information out with acceptances. W&L specifies how many students they hire as interns to boost there employment rankings, it is a fairly high number - maybe 41? I don't remember it exactly.

I'm not sure why W&L is on the boards so much lately. I think they are throwing around a lot of scholarship money. If people look at rankings W&L might look like a good deal.

It is interesting to know that former and present students try to get people to ignore the facts about these schools. I didn't realize that they would PM people trying to dispute the employment facts that are well-known and well-established. I'm sure people enjoy the school, but the job prospects can't really be denied.

[jerichosm]

I am a 0l who has been lurking around trying to find info to answer similar questions for the last 12 months. I would be super surprised if you get useful information in this thread. I bet you get some PMs from current and former students urging you to take TLS with a grain of salt. And you will probably receive a variety of retake/consider your other options/prepare for shitlaw/so and so market is decimated type-posts from the normal cast of characters who are all well meaning and at the very least, extremely consistent.

Very few of the posters or the PMers seem to have legit experience. Those who do have some real experience lose their efficacy because they are so negative. They could be legitimately negative or just curmudgeons. Who knows? I hope this is the thread where we finally get some answers.

Or, alternatively, those of us who actually are in school or have graduated are, umm... right? Or the professors like Paul Campos and Brian Tamanaha... maybe they know a thing or two? Nope, that couldn't be it. Flappy Scribbleneck, I'm sure you nailed it brah.

OP, do you have full rides to each which is what makes tuition a non-factor? You're not looking at a huge difference between the schools and I'd go to where you feel the most comfortable. Wake has better NLJ 250 placement according to the latest Go-to-Law-Schools Report, but neither school is a placement powerhouse, and a high-salaried job from either will be tough. But if tuition is a non-factor thanks to scholarships, then the investment is a lower risk and working in a lower-income job after law school is not as big of a deal. Where are you from? If you have ties to NC or VA, that would make the decision a lot easier. Good luck.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to receive full tuition offers from both schools. I am from Pennsylvania and do not have any real ties to either state, other than that both of my brothers live in the DC area (one in VA and one in MD). I would like to get involved in commercial or transactional law (I realize this is very unspecific, but obviously I wouldn't know just yet) because business is my forte and my passion.

Then you ought to be working in a career that doesn't not involve leaving for law school or else you ought to possibly be considering business school. You are proclaiming you are good at X but you want to go to school for Y. Completely the wrong path. I get where you are going with it---you want to be a lawyer in that field. The schools are going to limit your options before your business career in law ever gets off the ground. Beyond that you need to understand lawyers work in service of business, they are mostly not on the front lines in business activity. If you want to be on front lines go find a job or keep the one you have.

I'll respectfully disagree. Especially in the sense of the business knowledge required to run one's own firm, my long-term goal. I would like to obtain experience in the field before branching off to create my own business-service firm. The idea here is that I don't necessarily need a large salary coming out of school, I'm more or less just looking for tangible experience and connections through my first job.

[jerichosm]

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to receive full tuition offers from both schools. I am from Pennsylvania and do not have any real ties to either state, other than that both of my brothers live in the DC area (one in VA and one in MD). I would like to get involved in commercial or transactional law (I realize this is very unspecific, but obviously I wouldn't know just yet) because business is my forte and my passion.

Both VA and NC are quite parochial. The market is so bad that even going to school in the region might not be enough; you're already handicapped by not being a homer. Law school isn't really the time to relocate. A buddy of mine was at UNC just ran into this problem at 2L OCI actually.

I've already summered with a VA firm in Personal Injury -- does this count for anything?

[jimmyjamXII]

W & L

[timbs4339]

I am a 0l who has been lurking around trying to find info to answer similar questions for the last 12 months. I would be super surprised if you get useful information in this thread. I bet you get some PMs from current and former students urging you to take TLS with a grain of salt. And you will probably receive a variety of retake/consider your other options/prepare for shitlaw/so and so market is decimated type-posts from the normal cast of characters who are all well meaning and at the very least, extremely consistent.

Very few of the posters or the PMers seem to have legit experience. Those who do have some real experience lose their efficacy because they are so negative. They could be legitimately negative or just curmudgeons. Who knows? I hope this is the thread where we finally get some answers.

Or, alternatively, those of us who actually are in school or have graduated are, umm... right? Or the professors like Paul Campos and Brian Tamanaha... maybe they know a thing or two? Nope, that couldn't be it. Flappy Scribbleneck, I'm sure you nailed it brah.

OP, do you have full rides to each which is what makes tuition a non-factor? You're not looking at a huge difference between the schools and I'd go to where you feel the most comfortable. Wake has better NLJ 250 placement according to the latest Go-to-Law-Schools Report, but neither school is a placement powerhouse, and a high-salaried job from either will be tough. But if tuition is a non-factor thanks to scholarships, then the investment is a lower risk and working in a lower-income job after law school is not as big of a deal. Where are you from? If you have ties to NC or VA, that would make the decision a lot easier. Good luck.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to receive full tuition offers from both schools. I am from Pennsylvania and do not have any real ties to either state, other than that both of my brothers live in the DC area (one in VA and one in MD). I would like to get involved in commercial or transactional law (I realize this is very unspecific, but obviously I wouldn't know just yet) because business is my forte and my passion.

Unfortunately, the entry-level hiring opportunities for "commercial or transactional law" are almost entirely restricted to biglaw firms. Personal injury law is an entirely different animal, and i have been told by experienced PI attorneys that work in that area doesn't translate and is sometimes even a negative in the eyes of biglaw or commercial attorneys who see PI lawyers as bottom-feeders. PI would actually draw on "business skills" more than biglaw because it is almost all about client development and generation, but to set up a PI practice requires a large advertising budget and enough cash to survive for a year or two until your cases start generating fees.

The biglaw opportunities from Wake and W+L aren't great, and if you fail to secure a biglaw SA job after your first year, it is unlikely you will ever get there. Therefore, even if tuition isn't a factor, the three years you spend in law school would be better spent developing work experience in business and then applying for MBA programs.

[jerichosm]

I am a 0l who has been lurking around trying to find info to answer similar questions for the last 12 months. I would be super surprised if you get useful information in this thread. I bet you get some PMs from current and former students urging you to take TLS with a grain of salt. And you will probably receive a variety of retake/consider your other options/prepare for shitlaw/so and so market is decimated type-posts from the normal cast of characters who are all well meaning and at the very least, extremely consistent.

Very few of the posters or the PMers seem to have legit experience. Those who do have some real experience lose their efficacy because they are so negative. They could be legitimately negative or just curmudgeons. Who knows? I hope this is the thread where we finally get some answers.

Or, alternatively, those of us who actually are in school or have graduated are, umm... right? Or the professors like Paul Campos and Brian Tamanaha... maybe they know a thing or two? Nope, that couldn't be it. Flappy Scribbleneck, I'm sure you nailed it brah.

OP, do you have full rides to each which is what makes tuition a non-factor? You're not looking at a huge difference between the schools and I'd go to where you feel the most comfortable. Wake has better NLJ 250 placement according to the latest Go-to-Law-Schools Report, but neither school is a placement powerhouse, and a high-salaried job from either will be tough. But if tuition is a non-factor thanks to scholarships, then the investment is a lower risk and working in a lower-income job after law school is not as big of a deal. Where are you from? If you have ties to NC or VA, that would make the decision a lot easier. Good luck.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to receive full tuition offers from both schools. I am from Pennsylvania and do not have any real ties to either state, other than that both of my brothers live in the DC area (one in VA and one in MD). I would like to get involved in commercial or transactional law (I realize this is very unspecific, but obviously I wouldn't know just yet) because business is my forte and my passion.

Unfortunately, the entry-level hiring opportunities for "commercial or transactional law" are almost entirely restricted to biglaw firms. Personal injury law is an entirely different animal, and i have been told by experienced PI attorneys that work in that area doesn't translate and is sometimes even a negative in the eyes of biglaw or commercial attorneys who see PI lawyers as bottom-feeders. PI would actually draw on "business skills" more than biglaw because it is almost all about client development and generation, but to set up a PI practice requires a large advertising budget and enough cash to survive for a year or two until your cases start generating fees.

The biglaw opportunities from Wake and W+L aren't great, and if you fail to secure a biglaw SA job after your first year, it is unlikely you will ever get there. Therefore, even if tuition isn't a factor, the three years you spend in law school would be better spent developing work experience in business and then applying for MBA programs.

The chances of an MBA actually advancing my job prospects in such a way that the additional salary would outweigh the additional schooling costs are also low. Just because I'm interested in business does not mean that getting an MBA is the correct route to take. I am going to be a lawyer, and as of now, I'd like to work in the business law field. If this changes, or I cannot find a job, I will put that goal on hold and take whatever position I can find. I'm not under the false impression, as many TLSers are, that I am guaranteed a high-paying job just by going to law school and passing the bar. I understand that it will require a lot of hardwork, networking, and a bit of luck to secure a salary like the ones advertised by the schools -- I'm up for the challenge. I posted this thread merely to see if any current or former students had any insight on the potential of me ending up in business law -- not to debate my intentions of attending school.

[timbs4339]

The chances of an MBA actually advancing my job prospects in such a way that the additional salary would outweigh the additional schooling costs are also low. Just because I'm interested in business does not mean that getting an MBA is the correct route to take. I am going to be a lawyer, and as of now, I'd like to work in the business law field. If this changes, or I cannot find a job, I will put that goal on hold and take whatever position I can find. I'm not under the false impression, as many TLSers are, that I am guaranteed a high-paying job just by going to law school and passing the bar. I understand that it will require a lot of hardwork, networking, and a bit of luck to secure a salary like the ones advertised by the schools -- I'm up for the challenge. I posted this thread merely to see if any current or former students had any insight on the potential of me ending up in business law -- not to debate my intentions of attending school.

I'm sorry if I came off as offensive, but as someone who is interested in business you should try to understand exactly what "business law" is, how you break into it, and what your chances are of breaking into it given to the schools you listed before you make a huge investment of time and money into law school. I'm not exactly sure how much you know about these things and was only sharing my perspective as a 3L who has been through the hiring process.

[romothesavior]

The chances of an MBA actually advancing my job prospects in such a way that the additional salary would outweigh the additional schooling costs are also low. Just because I'm interested in business does not mean that getting an MBA is the correct route to take. I am going to be a lawyer, and as of now, I'd like to work in the business law field. If this changes, or I cannot find a job, I will put that goal on hold and take whatever position I can find. I'm not under the false impression, as many TLSers are, that I am guaranteed a high-paying job just by going to law school and passing the bar. I understand that it will require a lot of hardwork, networking, and a bit of luck to secure a salary like the ones advertised by the schools -- I'm up for the challenge. I posted this thread merely to see if any current or former students had any insight on the potential of me ending up in business law -- not to debate my intentions of attending school.

I'm sorry if I came off as offensive, but as someone who is interested in business you should try to understand exactly what "business law" is, how you break into it, and what your chances are of breaking into it given to the schools you listed before you make a huge investment of time and money into law school. I'm not exactly sure how much you know about these things and was only sharing my perspective as a 3L who has been through the hiring process.

This is a great post.

OP, when you say you want to do "business law," what does that mean to you? Business litigation? Corporate M&A work? Regulatory and compliance work? In-house at a big company? "Business law" is so vague a term as to be essentially meaningless.

[jerichosm]

The chances of an MBA actually advancing my job prospects in such a way that the additional salary would outweigh the additional schooling costs are also low. Just because I'm interested in business does not mean that getting an MBA is the correct route to take. I am going to be a lawyer, and as of now, I'd like to work in the business law field. If this changes, or I cannot find a job, I will put that goal on hold and take whatever position I can find. I'm not under the false impression, as many TLSers are, that I am guaranteed a high-paying job just by going to law school and passing the bar. I understand that it will require a lot of hardwork, networking, and a bit of luck to secure a salary like the ones advertised by the schools -- I'm up for the challenge. I posted this thread merely to see if any current or former students had any insight on the potential of me ending up in business law -- not to debate my intentions of attending school.

I'm sorry if I came off as offensive, but as someone who is interested in business you should try to understand exactly what "business law" is, how you break into it, and what your chances are of breaking into it given to the schools you listed before you make a huge investment of time and money into law school. I'm not exactly sure how much you know about these things and was only sharing my perspective as a 3L who has been through the hiring process.

This is a great post.

OP, when you say you want to do "business law," what does that mean to you? Business litigation? Corporate M&A work? Regulatory and compliance work? In-house at a big company? "Business law" is so vague a term as to be essentially meaningless.

Thank you for your responses. At this point, I'm not particular in my interest (I'd imagine I'll have a much better idea of what I specifically want to do after I study some of the subjects more closely), hence why I vaguely referenced business law. I really just want to get my foot into the field -- that being said, I'm more interested in security issues, M&A, etc. Stuff with lots of numbers.

[Grizz]

Ya you want to work for a big law firm. None of these schools give you a solid shot at that.