Washington and Lee vs. Cardozo Forum

[spenc6]

I am trying to decide between Washington and Lee and Cardozo for law school. I am torn because Washington and Lee has the higher ranking, a high level of prestige and apparently a strong alumni network. Cardozo is relatively new but it is located in NYC which is where I would like to secure a job. Any help would be appreciated.

[cinephile]

Don't be swayed by the rankings, it really doesn't mean much once you get into this range.

How much would it cost you to attend each school? That is probably how you should pick your school.

[yinz]

Don't be swayed by the rankings, it really doesn't mean much once you get into this range.

How much would it cost you to attend each school? That is probably how you should pick your school.

Cost is a factor, but not the factor. But because you likely received more $$ from Cardozo and want to work in NYC, I think it's pretty clear where you should go. From w&l, if you want big law in NYC, you'll need at least top-10%. Not sure of the stats at Cardozo, but I would think most grads stick around New York.

[spenc6]

Leaving cost aside and just considering which school would give me better job prospects within a good NYC private law firm...

[MrAnon]

If you want to work in NYC the answer should be obvious.

Neither school has wonderful job prospects.

[TB12]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

[timbs4339]

If your goal is to work NYC biglaw, do not go to either of these law schools unless you can get a full or near-full scholarship with very low stipulations.

[CanadianWolf]

A visit to each school should make your decision easier.

[spenc6]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

[cinephile]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

They're not worthless for getting a job, they're just not going to get you a NYC biglaw job. And it'd fine to take a lower paying gig if you're getting a substantial scholarship.

Also, why do you think these are your best schools? Where else did you get in? It's still early, you never know what else might come up in the next month or so.

[romothesavior]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

What do you want to do? How much debt are you looking at? If you are going to have debt, you'll need a job that will allow you to manage your debtload. Neither school is likely to do that. I personally would not attend either school without a full ride. Current legal hiring doesn't justify taking out six-figures for these two schools.

[MrAnon]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

Why don't you ask the schools for specific employment outcomes. Ask them where all the class of 2011 grads ended up, a list of firms or whatever for every last student. If you are going to plunk down 6 figures to attend this seems like a reasonable request to make. Then you can assess career prospects and whether it is worth it.

[spenc6]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

They're not worthless for getting a job, they're just not going to get you a NYC biglaw job. And it'd fine to take a lower paying gig if you're getting a substantial scholarship.

Also, why do you think these are your best schools? Where else did you get in? It's still early, you never know what else might come up in the next month or so.

I was an unlikely admit at W & L. At one point, my top choice I was striving for was Cardozo. I still have yet to hear from some other schools but from a statistical standpoint, it is unlikely I will get into a school ranked higher. That's why I was wondering how much attention to pay to the rankings. It seems like people are saying unless you are receiving $, it is pointless to attend a law school. Washington and Lee with no scholarship versus Cardozo with very little versus St. Johns/Hofstra with 25k/35k. That would have me steered toward the scholarship money. However, I am most interested in securing the best job possible in NYC upon completion of law school...

[Grizz]

I was an unlikely admit at W & L. At one point, my top choice I was striving for was Cardozo. I still have yet to hear from some other schools but from a statistical standpoint, it is unlikely I will get into a school ranked higher. That's why I was wondering how much attention to pay to the rankings. It seems like people are saying unless you are receiving $, it is pointless to attend a law school. Washington and Lee with no scholarship versus Cardozo with very little versus St. Johns/Hofstra with 25k/35k. That would have me steered toward the scholarship money. However, I am most interested in securing the best job possible in NYC upon completion of law school...

The market is so bad that attending any of those schools at those prices with the hope of working in NYC is about the financial equivalent of sticking your leg in a woodchipper. NYC market is incredibly saturated, and the chances of big law are slim. Outside of big law, most of the other jobs pay about $50kish (bimodal starting salary distribution). God help you if you took out $125k+ to make $50k. Many will just graduate unemployed and never work as lawyers.

[MrAnon]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

They're not worthless for getting a job, they're just not going to get you a NYC biglaw job. And it'd fine to take a lower paying gig if you're getting a substantial scholarship.

Also, why do you think these are your best schools? Where else did you get in? It's still early, you never know what else might come up in the next month or so.

I was an unlikely admit at W & L. At one point, my top choice I was striving for was Cardozo. I still have yet to hear from some other schools but from a statistical standpoint, it is unlikely I will get into a school ranked higher. That's why I was wondering how much attention to pay to the rankings. It seems like people are saying unless you are receiving $, it is pointless to attend a law school. Washington and Lee with no scholarship versus Cardozo with very little versus St. Johns/Hofstra with 25k/35k. That would have me steered toward the scholarship money. However, I am most interested in securing the best job possible in NYC upon completion of law school...

If you have to go to law school in NYC I would take St. John's out of those choices.

However if I were in your shoes I would retake or not go, find another career to focus upon.

[dingbat]

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

In 2010, a bit over 70%* of Cardozo graduates had secured employment before graduation, about 12% of Cardozo graduates got hired by biglaw.
So, it's B.S. that you will have no job prospects. The current job market is tough, but not impossible. Just be aware of the odds.

If you want to work in NYC after graduating, it is going to be tough, especially if those are the best schools you can get into, but it won't be impossible. Go to Cardozo, which is a step up from either st. John or Hofstra

But be aware that you are taking a risk and there is a chance you'll be unable to find a job upon graduation (so don't slack off in law school, but work your butt off)

*from what I recall, Cardozo has created post-graduate positions to help grads who couldn't find a job. The plus side is that if you can't find a real job, they'll find a way to get you some money/experience for you to build on. The minus is that the employment statistics might be a bit inflated because of this.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/new-york ... hools.html
(the older version of this article was better, but I can't find it right now)

[TB12]

If you go to W&L, you can very likely forgot NYC and you're going to struggle with getting a job (the employment stats they sent to me were pretty horrific. If you go to Cardozo you're going to have a difficult time getting a job.

Unless you get close to a full scholarship, don't go to either

So basically my two best schools that I have been admitted to are worthless for getting a job? hmm

Why don't you ask the schools for specific employment outcomes. Ask them where all the class of 2011 grads ended up, a list of firms or whatever for every last student. If you are going to plunk down 6 figures to attend this seems like a reasonable request to make. Then you can assess career prospects and whether it is worth it.

Washington and Lee might actually send you that information. They sent it all to me when I was admitted. After reading their stats, the fact that I had a full ride there wasn't enough to justify going.

[sunynp]

Leaving cost aside and just considering which school would give me better job prospects within a good NYC private law firm...

You can't leave cost aside unless you are going for free. The only other person I've seen who can leave cost aside is the over 60 year old woman who wants to go to law school. She has plenty of money to live on the rest of her life whether she ever makes money from law. You have to do a cost of attending versus the employment prospects. My opinion is that neither of these schools will get you a good job in New York. Washington and Lee definitely will not.

[cinephile]

I was an unlikely admit at W & L. At one point, my top choice I was striving for was Cardozo. I still have yet to hear from some other schools but from a statistical standpoint, it is unlikely I will get into a school ranked higher. That's why I was wondering how much attention to pay to the rankings. It seems like people are saying unless you are receiving $, it is pointless to attend a law school. Washington and Lee with no scholarship versus Cardozo with very little versus St. Johns/Hofstra with 25k/35k. That would have me steered toward the scholarship money. However, I am most interested in securing the best job possible in NYC upon completion of law school...

But at this range of schools, the rank doesn't mean much. What you should be looking at is which is the best school in the region. For NYC or Virginia, neither of these schools will get you what you want.

But where are you from? Are you from a region where the best school might one lower ranked than W&L or Cardozo? If so, I'd take your local school where you can get the in-state rate. It may not get you to New York, but if that's what you really want you should be retaking and aiming for Fordham at least.

[romothesavior]

In 2010, a bit over 70%* of Cardozo graduates had secured employment before graduation, about 12% of Cardozo graduates got hired by biglaw.
So, it's B.S. that you will have no job prospects. The current job market is tough, but not impossible. Just be aware of the odds.

If you want to work in NYC after graduating, it is going to be tough, especially if those are the best schools you can get into, but it won't be impossible. Go to Cardozo, which is a step up from either st. John or Hofstra

But be aware that you are taking a risk and there is a chance you'll be unable to find a job upon graduation (so don't slack off in law school, but work your butt off)

*from what I recall, Cardozo has created post-graduate positions to help grads who couldn't find a job. The plus side is that if you can't find a real job, they'll find a way to get you some money/experience for you to build on. The minus is that the employment statistics might be a bit inflated because of this.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/new-york ... hools.html
(the older version of this article was better, but I can't find it right now)

You suck.

Your odds of getting a job that justify the kind of debt you are looking at is just not even remotely worth it.

[dingbat]

You suck.

Your odds of getting a job that justify the kind of debt you are looking at is just not even remotely worth it.

Sorry, I tried countering the notion that it's impossible to get a job from Cardozo.
I did not address, as OP did not ask, whether or not it makes financial sense to go there.

We do not know OP's financial situation - for all we know, OP has a free ride to both, or super-rich parents who will pay for a law degree no matter where OP goes.

Cardozo at sticker does not make economic sense (most law schools don't), but that wasn't the question.

[cloudhidden]

I was an unlikely admit at W & L. At one point, my top choice I was striving for was Cardozo. I still have yet to hear from some other schools but from a statistical standpoint, it is unlikely I will get into a school ranked higher. That's why I was wondering how much attention to pay to the rankings. It seems like people are saying unless you are receiving $, it is pointless to attend a law school. Washington and Lee with no scholarship versus Cardozo with very little versus St. Johns/Hofstra with 25k/35k. That would have me steered toward the scholarship money. However, I am most interested in securing the best job possible in NYC upon completion of law school...

The market is so bad that attending any of those schools at those prices with the hope of working in NYC is about the financial equivalent of sticking your leg in a woodchipper. NYC market is incredibly saturated, and the chances of big law are slim. Outside of big law, most of the other jobs pay about $50kish (bimodal starting salary distribution). God help you if you took out $125k+ to make $50k. Many will just graduate unemployed and never work as lawyers.

Aren't there many, many, non-biglaw jobs in nyc that pay well over $50,000, and some even six figures? If not, then I have been led astray by multiple sources. From studying raw numbers of actually reported salaies, I don't think the bi-modal distribution is as simple as people make it out to be. PI and govt and some small firms yes, but a lot of non-biglaw firms occupy small percentages of various salary data.