Teach for America vs. Law School Forum

[coldshoulder]

I've been accepted to Teach for America in the area I wanted, the age group I wanted, and my second choice for subject (secondary English in Colorado). I've also been accepted to a number of T50 law schools with scholarships, all of which would defer my admission for the two year TFA commitment. I'm all for the goal of TFA, and I think it would be a great (and extremely challenging) experience. On a selfish level, I think I'd have more time to grow up in law school and do more things I like, and possibly advance my career more quickly.

Your opinion, people of TLS? Ultimately, the decision is a very personal one and only mine to make, but I wanted to hear some of your thoughts. I would especially love to hear from anyone that has done TFA, is currently doing TFA, or made this decision between the two themselves.

[nsbane]

Accept a school & defer for a year. Do TFA. If you can't hack TFA, then quit after a year and go to lawschool. If you can hack it after a year, withdraw your app and apply to better schools because TFA on your resume is solid gold.

[Real Madrid]

Accept a school & defer for a year. Do TFA. If you can't hack TFA, then quit after a year and go to lawschool. If you can hack it after a year, withdraw your app and apply to better schools because TFA on your resume is solid gold.

Not really. TFA is a pretty good soft, but it's by no means rare anymore and will not really help you outperform your numbers. HTH.

[cinephile]

Do TFA now, especially since schools will defer their acceptance. This is the last chance you get to try something else before embarking on a career in law -- at which point you'll have to start practicing right away.

I didn't do TFA, but I have taught and I found it a really rewarding experience.

[09042014]

I've been accepted to Teach for America in the area I wanted, the age group I wanted, and my second choice for subject (secondary English in Colorado). I've also been accepted to a number of T50 law schools with scholarships, all of which would defer my admission for the two year TFA commitment. I'm all for the goal of TFA, and I think it would be a great (and extremely challenging) experience. On a selfish level, I think I'd have more time to grow up in law school and do more things I like, and possibly advance my career more quickly.

Your opinion, people of TLS? Ultimately, the decision is a very personal one and only mine to make, but I wanted to hear some of your thoughts. I would especially love to hear from anyone that has done TFA, is currently doing TFA, or made this decision between the two themselves.

1) You might like teaching

2) You'll want to have done that growing up, experimenting, and dicking around before law school. Teaching a bunch of poor kids is easier than school.

3) Two more years for legal hiring to pick back up. OCI's have been pretty stagnant for a while.

[nsbane]

Accept a school & defer for a year. Do TFA. If you can't hack TFA, then quit after a year and go to lawschool. If you can hack it after a year, withdraw your app and apply to better schools because TFA on your resume is solid gold.

Not really. TFA is a pretty good soft, but it's by no means rare anymore and will not really help you outperform your numbers. HTH.

so this is off topic. but what is a soft that will let you outperform your numbers?

[Blessedassurance]

so this is off topic. but what is a soft that will let you outperform your numbers?

being a urm for one. It's hard to concretely quantify the others. It depends on many factors. How borderline your numbers are, how many people in the applicant pool share the soft coupled with it's desirability or something close to it (supply and demand), idiosyncrasies of the adcomm members and so on and so forth. Generally, and absent urm-ness, it's best to head in not expecting any major impact. I would imagine softs do matter for some, except people frequently over-estimate the impact of their softs and end up jaded by the whole process. For the vast majority of applicants, their numbers will determine where they get in.

The impact of softs also diminish over time. As a given soft positively impacts a segment of the applicant pool, more people acquire the soft expecting a similar impact thereby inadvertently diluting the impact of the soft in subsequent years. The relative stability of the urm soft is due to the limitations of voluntarily acquiring the soft.

[pdeturk]

TFA with a retake during the summer. Apply to better schools that will waive your application fee for having TFA.

p.s. I have my final interview for TFA in a few weeks. Hope to be a corps member with you!

[nsbane]

I want to emphasize that TFA is hard and a lot of people burn out after the first year. I think you should defer law school for only a year, just in case you are put at America's worst school ever. Then if a year goes by and you feel peach keen and can keep going, defer for another year. Tell the law school about TFA, they will understand.

[initech]

There are a number of old threads on this that you can look at to help you make your decision.

As a current TFAer, I will give you this advice: I would argue that teaching a "bunch of poor kids" is not easier than school. If you want to do it to the best of your ability, you'll be dealing with a number of student issues that go beyond the classroom. Depending on your placement, it could be the most challenging experience you will ever face. TFA will have little impact on your application cycle at top schools. Many lower ranked schools have scholarships set aside for TFA, but there are not many available in the T14. (I believe NYU has one.)

That being said, I am glad that I decided to do TFA. I turned down (did not defer). Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions.

[jrthor10]

Please, PLEASE do not defer just for one year. I am a current CM with TFA, and while I don't want to make this a long drawn out post, I really hope you don't just defer for one year. Yes, some people drop out after a year, but it is not "many" people as some posters are suggesting, and you are definitely shunned for it. In my opinion, you should not be able to put tfa on your resume if you drop out, since it's just like dropping out of school after two years and saying you have a a degree from said institution.

More than this though, dropping out does a significant disservice to TFA in the region in which you do it, the school you teach at, and the students. If you want more details please PM me, but I feel very strongly that deferring for a year as some have suggested is a very poor choice.

That being said, I am currently finishing my 2nd year of tfa and looking at law schools. I think the experience would benefit you in the long run, as the skillset for teaching (analytical thinking, data driven analysis, problem solving, etc.) have strong crossover with a career in law.

[RTFM]

First of all, you probably can defer for two years--most schools will let you do that for TFA.

But, second of all, don't defer--apply again if you decide to do TFA. TFA will help you. I had a very strong application overall, but I definitely think I outperformed my numbers (got waitlisted at several schools law school predictor had me as deny, got into several weak considers), and I'm betting that TFA had something to do with that. At the very least, you might get some money at a school that you wouldn't otherwise if you defer.

[whitman]

Please, PLEASE do not defer just for one year. I am a current CM with TFA, and while I don't want to make this a long drawn out post, I really hope you don't just defer for one year. Yes, some people drop out after a year, but it is not "many" people as some posters are suggesting, and you are definitely shunned for it. In my opinion, you should not be able to put tfa on your resume if you drop out, since it's just like dropping out of school after two years and saying you have a a degree from said institution.

More than this though, dropping out does a significant disservice to TFA in the region in which you do it, the school you teach at, and the students. If you want more details please PM me, but I feel very strongly that deferring for a year as some have suggested is a very poor choice.

That being said, I am currently finishing my 2nd year of tfa and looking at law schools. I think the experience would benefit you in the long run, as the skillset for teaching (analytical thinking, data driven analysis, problem solving, etc.) have strong crossover with a career in law.

I agree. Dropping out after 1 year does do a disservice to the school because, let's face it, TFAers are basically first year graduates with no teaching experience who wanted something prestigious and rewarding. They aren't going to be great teachers that first year because they haven't studied education (except over the summer) and haven't done significant student teaching. So now to addend your point a bit, I'd add that they're not going to be great teachers their second year either. And where do they go for their third year? Well, you, who are so preachy toward people suggesting he drop after one year, are going to law school. Others go to med school or transfer to a good charter school, etc. So in most cases, TFA doesn't do much for students. Hell, most of the time, TFA kids take the place of some normal teacher who actually wants to teach. We have a teaching surplus in many metro areas. Then, they take their learned skills and strength elsewhere. I suppose part of it is to give future leaders firsthand exposure to our struggling education system, so that's good. But how many people that do TFA will really be Senators?

However, on a personal level, it'd probably be a great, challenging, potentially rewarding experience, and, as Desert Fox said, you might like teaching. But turn down offers, then reapply.

[RTFM]

I agree. Dropping out after 1 year does do a disservice to the school because, let's face it, TFAers are basically first year graduates with no teaching experience who wanted something prestigious and rewarding. They aren't going to be great teachers that first year because they haven't studied education (except over the summer) and haven't done significant student teaching. So now to addend your point a bit, I'd add that they're not going to be great teachers their second year either. And where do they go for their third year? Well, you, who are so preachy toward people suggesting he drop after one year, are going to law school. Others go to med school or transfer to a good charter school, etc. So in most cases, TFA doesn't do much for students. Hell, most of the time, TFA kids take the place of some normal teacher who actually wants to teach. We have a teaching surplus in many metro areas. Then, they take their learned skills and strength elsewhere. I suppose part of it is to give future leaders firsthand exposure to our struggling education system, so that's good. But how many people that do TFA will really be Senators?

During my time as a corps member, I came to realize that you are absolutely correct. TFA is a good idea when it serves areas with teacher shortages, but it does a huge disservice to schools and school districts when it pushes and shoves its way into areas with teacher surpluses.

However, on a personal level, it'd probably be a great, challenging, potentially rewarding experience, and, as Desert Fox said, you might like teaching. But turn down offers, then reapply.

This is also correct.

[jrthor10]

Please, PLEASE do not defer just for one year. I am a current CM with TFA, and while I don't want to make this a long drawn out post, I really hope you don't just defer for one year. Yes, some people drop out after a year, but it is not "many" people as some posters are suggesting, and you are definitely shunned for it. In my opinion, you should not be able to put tfa on your resume if you drop out, since it's just like dropping out of school after two years and saying you have a a degree from said institution.

More than this though, dropping out does a significant disservice to TFA in the region in which you do it, the school you teach at, and the students. If you want more details please PM me, but I feel very strongly that deferring for a year as some have suggested is a very poor choice.

That being said, I am currently finishing my 2nd year of tfa and looking at law schools. I think the experience would benefit you in the long run, as the skillset for teaching (analytical thinking, data driven analysis, problem solving, etc.) have strong crossover with a career in law.

I agree. Dropping out after 1 year does do a disservice to the school because, let's face it, TFAers are basically first year graduates with no teaching experience who wanted something prestigious and rewarding. They aren't going to be great teachers that first year because they haven't studied education (except over the summer) and haven't done significant student teaching. So now to addend your point a bit, I'd add that they're not going to be great teachers their second year either. And where do they go for their third year? Well, you, who are so preachy toward people suggesting he drop after one year, are going to law school. Others go to med school or transfer to a good charter school, etc. So in most cases, TFA doesn't do much for students. Hell, most of the time, TFA kids take the place of some normal teacher who actually wants to teach. We have a teaching surplus in many metro areas. Then, they take their learned skills and strength elsewhere. I suppose part of it is to give future leaders firsthand exposure to our struggling education system, so that's good. But how many people that do TFA will really be Senators?

However, on a personal level, it'd probably be a great, challenging, potentially rewarding experience, and, as Desert Fox said, you might like teaching. But turn down offers, then reapply.

I don't want to get into a debate over the merits of TFA on this forum, but unless you explain to me your rationale behind a lot of this, or your personal experience, I am going to assume you are spewing bullshit.

Unfortunately, the teachers who are often teaching in the schools and areas where tfa teachers teach are under performing and/or poor teachers themselves. This is ESPECIALLY true of the non-TFA first and second year teachers. This is only my experience and perspective, but from the limited number of TFA CM's I've talked to in other regions, this is often the case there as well. Moreover, while there are teaching surpluses in some districts and states, often there are critical teacher SHORTAGES in the high-needs areas where TFA CM's are placed. Teachers want to teach, but they often don't want to teach in the areas where CM's are assigned.

Bottom line, in my opinion, a first or 2nd year TFA teacher is often better than a traditional teacher at schools where CM's are placed and are and, I would argue, 90% of the time (on average) better than non-TFA first and second year teachers.

[20130312]

a first or 2nd year TFA teacher is often better than a traditional teacher

[Yeshia90]

I always wanted to do TFA, but my dad said he wouldn't support me financially (he's going to pay part of my living costs) if I were to, and I quote, "make such a stupid decision."

You're going to hate life in law school and as (hopefully) a young associate in biglaw, so you might as well do something you'll be proud of for a couple years in the meanwhile.

[moneybagsphd]

I always wanted to do TFA, but my dad said he wouldn't support me financially (he's going to pay part of my living costs) if I were to, and I quote, "make such a stupid decision."

Your dad was just giving you good advice.

[whitman]

Please, PLEASE do not defer just for one year. I am a current CM with TFA, and while I don't want to make this a long drawn out post, I really hope you don't just defer for one year. Yes, some people drop out after a year, but it is not "many" people as some posters are suggesting, and you are definitely shunned for it. In my opinion, you should not be able to put tfa on your resume if you drop out, since it's just like dropping out of school after two years and saying you have a a degree from said institution.

More than this though, dropping out does a significant disservice to TFA in the region in which you do it, the school you teach at, and the students. If you want more details please PM me, but I feel very strongly that deferring for a year as some have suggested is a very poor choice.

That being said, I am currently finishing my 2nd year of tfa and looking at law schools. I think the experience would benefit you in the long run, as the skillset for teaching (analytical thinking, data driven analysis, problem solving, etc.) have strong crossover with a career in law.

I agree. Dropping out after 1 year does do a disservice to the school because, let's face it, TFAers are basically first year graduates with no teaching experience who wanted something prestigious and rewarding. They aren't going to be great teachers that first year because they haven't studied education (except over the summer) and haven't done significant student teaching. So now to addend your point a bit, I'd add that they're not going to be great teachers their second year either. And where do they go for their third year? Well, you, who are so preachy toward people suggesting he drop after one year, are going to law school. Others go to med school or transfer to a good charter school, etc. So in most cases, TFA doesn't do much for students. Hell, most of the time, TFA kids take the place of some normal teacher who actually wants to teach. We have a teaching surplus in many metro areas. Then, they take their learned skills and strength elsewhere. I suppose part of it is to give future leaders firsthand exposure to our struggling education system, so that's good. But how many people that do TFA will really be Senators?

However, on a personal level, it'd probably be a great, challenging, potentially rewarding experience, and, as Desert Fox said, you might like teaching. But turn down offers, then reapply.

I don't want to get into a debate over the merits of TFA on this forum, but unless you explain to me your rationale behind a lot of this, or your personal experience, I am going to assume you are spewing bullshit.

Unfortunately, the teachers who are often teaching in the schools and areas where tfa teachers teach are under performing and/or poor teachers themselves. This is ESPECIALLY true of the non-TFA first and second year teachers. This is only my experience and perspective, but from the limited number of TFA CM's I've talked to in other regions, this is often the case there as well. Moreover, while there are teaching surpluses in some districts and states, often there are critical teacher SHORTAGES in the high-needs areas where TFA CM's are placed. Teachers want to teach, but they often don't want to teach in the areas where CM's are assigned.

Bottom line, in my opinion, a first or 2nd year TFA teacher is often better than a traditional teacher at schools where CM's are placed and are and, I would argue, 90% of the time (on average) better than non-TFA first and second year teachers.

I did explain my rationale, but I'll elaborate for you if you want. Unqualified TFA teachers who have no intention of teaching long term are sometimes thrust into teaching roles they are unprepared for and/or could be better filled with a career teacher. Strike one. Teach for America markets itself toward people who are unlikely to be career teachers, and, in fact, most of them do not become career teachers. Strike two. Just as you think one year is two short, I think two years is too short. Students see these people come into their school and then they see them leave. Teachers start getting close to competent (or maybe extraordinary) and begin to master their lesson planning, and then they leave. Strike three.

However, you're right, sometimes there is a shortage of teachers and sometimes the TFA is amazing and there is either no alternative or the alternative is an apathetic, incompetent teacher. Sometimes, those TFA folks become full-time teachers or get involved in policy in a positive way. Plus, maybe those TFA folks who go on to unrelated lives become better people for having TFA, and that impacts society in a positive, though immeasurable, way.

[MTal]

They're both for the extremely naive and delusional operating on the vain hope that what they're doing is making a difference. However, one leads to a job and steady, if meager income. The other leads to no job and massive debt.

[RTFM]

Please, PLEASE do not defer just for one year. I am a current CM with TFA, and while I don't want to make this a long drawn out post, I really hope you don't just defer for one year. Yes, some people drop out after a year, but it is not "many" people as some posters are suggesting, and you are definitely shunned for it. In my opinion, you should not be able to put tfa on your resume if you drop out, since it's just like dropping out of school after two years and saying you have a a degree from said institution.

More than this though, dropping out does a significant disservice to TFA in the region in which you do it, the school you teach at, and the students. If you want more details please PM me, but I feel very strongly that deferring for a year as some have suggested is a very poor choice.

That being said, I am currently finishing my 2nd year of tfa and looking at law schools. I think the experience would benefit you in the long run, as the skillset for teaching (analytical thinking, data driven analysis, problem solving, etc.) have strong crossover with a career in law.

I agree. Dropping out after 1 year does do a disservice to the school because, let's face it, TFAers are basically first year graduates with no teaching experience who wanted something prestigious and rewarding. They aren't going to be great teachers that first year because they haven't studied education (except over the summer) and haven't done significant student teaching. So now to addend your point a bit, I'd add that they're not going to be great teachers their second year either. And where do they go for their third year? Well, you, who are so preachy toward people suggesting he drop after one year, are going to law school. Others go to med school or transfer to a good charter school, etc. So in most cases, TFA doesn't do much for students. Hell, most of the time, TFA kids take the place of some normal teacher who actually wants to teach. We have a teaching surplus in many metro areas. Then, they take their learned skills and strength elsewhere. I suppose part of it is to give future leaders firsthand exposure to our struggling education system, so that's good. But how many people that do TFA will really be Senators?

However, on a personal level, it'd probably be a great, challenging, potentially rewarding experience, and, as Desert Fox said, you might like teaching. But turn down offers, then reapply.

I don't want to get into a debate over the merits of TFA on this forum, but unless you explain to me your rationale behind a lot of this, or your personal experience, I am going to assume you are spewing bullshit.

Unfortunately, the teachers who are often teaching in the schools and areas where tfa teachers teach are under performing and/or poor teachers themselves. This is ESPECIALLY true of the non-TFA first and second year teachers. This is only my experience and perspective, but from the limited number of TFA CM's I've talked to in other regions, this is often the case there as well. Moreover, while there are teaching surpluses in some districts and states, often there are critical teacher SHORTAGES in the high-needs areas where TFA CM's are placed. Teachers want to teach, but they often don't want to teach in the areas where CM's are assigned.

Bottom line, in my opinion, a first or 2nd year TFA teacher is often better than a traditional teacher at schools where CM's are placed and are and, I would argue, 90% of the time (on average) better than non-TFA first and second year teachers.

I also don't want to get into this debate here, but I will quickly point out that my experience was quite the opposite. My district was full of hardworking, wonderful non-TFA teachers and the TFA teachers just did not compare. Districts face a whole host of challenges that lead them to be labeled "low performing," and while teacher quality certainly plays a role it does not play the only, and perhaps not even the most significant, role. Also, many non-TFA backed empirical studies show that a first or second year TFA teacher is NOT better than a traditional first of second year teacher, except maybe in math/science. You can agree with TFA's goals and mission without degrading the people who dedicate their lives to a profession we only chose to spend 2 years in.

[jrthor10]

One quick point: My point about TFA teachers being better than traditional teachers is specifically with regards to teachers in the low-income high poverty areas tfa teachers are placed. This is not always true, but it is sometimes true. With regards to a 1st or 2nd year tfa teacher being better than an average teacher overall, I have no idea and am not arguing this point. I apologize if my point was misunderstood to be an indictment on all teachers in general. Unfortunately, though, too often the teachers in my district don't stack up to their tfa counterparts ( in my opinion, as well as the opinion of the admin at my school and some others). Sad, but true.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Rule of thumb: If you are graduating college and have an alternative to law school you are even moderately interested in pursuing, do it. Law school will be there later. There's no benefit and many drawbacks to going straight through.

[game6]

They're both for the extremely naive and delusional operating on the vain hope that what they're doing is making a difference. However, one leads to a job and steady, if meager income. The other leads to no job and massive debt.

-_____-

[apeopleshistory]

.