Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall (with $) Forum

[iceicebaby]

Well I'm not some kid in college or some recent graduate living at home with nothing but time for studying for the LSAT. I work a full-time paralegal job and just can never have the time to give the proper attention to studying. I've realized that after taking it twice and after two LSAT classes, the only way I would continue to improve would be quitting my job entirely and studying for two months almost as a full-time job. But this is not an option since I can't just stop working. I know there are many people that have a lot going on in their lives but still find time to study on the LSAT, but I am just not able to give it the attention it would need to bolster my score in my current capacity. So yes, I guess I give up at this point but I'm 25 going on 26 and just need to go to law school. It's what I want to do and I have legal experience that confirms this desire.

This is bull. I work a full time job as well and still carved a ton of time out of my nights and weekends to study for the LSAT. Sure, I was exhausted and it was tough to get through the day at work, but that's just what you have to do to score well on the LSAT.

Let me explain what I bolded above further:

I work 60-70 hours a week, or 12-14 hours a day, and many times on the weekend. It's a bit difficult to do anything like study for the LSAT when you go to work at 9 AM and don't leave until 9 PM to 11 PM every day. My weekends are also just a joke when they are filled with work or other things I didn't have time to do during the week. That is all I'm saying, relax. I know people do it, I'm just not one of them. This point is moot anyway; I won't be able to retake, which is why I said "no retake responses" in my OP.

[Mr. Somebody]

Well I'm not some kid in college or some recent graduate living at home with nothing but time for studying for the LSAT. I work a full-time paralegal job and just can never have the time to give the proper attention to studying. I've realized that after taking it twice and after two LSAT classes, the only way I would continue to improve would be quitting my job entirely and studying for two months almost as a full-time job. But this is not an option since I can't just stop working. I know there are many people that have a lot going on in their lives but still find time to study on the LSAT, but I am just not able to give it the attention it would need to bolster my score in my current capacity. So yes, I guess I give up at this point but I'm 25 going on 26 and just need to go to law school. It's what I want to do and I have legal experience that confirms this desire.

This is bull. I work a full time job as well and still carved a ton of time out of my nights and weekends to study for the LSAT. Sure, I was exhausted and it was tough to get through the day at work, but that's just what you have to do to score well on the LSAT.

Let me explain what I bolded above further:

I work 60-70 hours a week, or 12-14 hours a day, and many times on the weekend. It's a bit difficult to do anything like study for the LSAT when you go to work at 9 AM and don't leave until 9 PM to 11 PM every day. My weekends are also just a joke when they are filled with work or other things I didn't have time to do during the week. That is all I'm saying, relax. I know people do it, I'm just not one of them. This point is moot anyway; I won't be able to retake, which is why I said "no retake responses" in my OP.

Wow, and you're a paralegal? I'd drown myself if I had to do bullshit paper pushing for 70 hours a week.... so I envy your dedication.

Yes, if that's the case then I can see your dilemma as far as retaking. I was actually offered a different job before I took my current one which required a similar numbers of hours and I turned it down even though it paid way more, so I could study for the LSAT. In the grand scheme of things your current job doesn't mean a lot if you plan to go to law school.

[romothesavior]

I guess I just don't really see the point in giving up because you're scared of what could go wrong instead of striving for what could go right.

Lol, words of a man about to walk into a minefield. If I showed this post to one of my unemployed friends (maybe some of my top 1/3 unemployed friends at my T20?) they would probably want to punch you in the face. You are truly making the biggest mistake of your life. You are going to be pissing away you and your family's money. Maybe if you do well enough at Ruttttttgers you can make them oh so proud and work at one of these prestigious jobs in New Jersey. Our profession is a joke, and you won't even know what hit you in a few years. But hey, what could a forum full of actual law students and lawyers who know the market have to say that would mean anything? Apparently nothing. Have fun.

[iceicebaby]

I guess I just don't really see the point in giving up because you're scared of what could go wrong instead of striving for what could go right.

Lol, words of a man about to walk into a minefield. If I showed this post to one of my unemployed friends (maybe some of my top 1/3 unemployed friends at my T20?) they would probably want to punch you in the face. You are truly making the biggest mistake of your life. You are going to be pissing away you and your family's money. Maybe if you do well enough at Ruttttttgers you can make them oh so proud and work at one of these prestigious jobs in New Jersey. Our profession is a joke, and you won't even know what hit you in a few years. But hey, what could a forum full of actual law students and lawyers who know the market have to say that would mean anything? Apparently nothing. Have fun.

I'm sorry things aren't working out for your friends. Just a curious question, did your unemployed friends have jobs before going to law school? If so, what kind? I'm honestly trying to see if it makes a difference or not because I've been told by the lawyers I work with that having work experience really helps you once you get your JD and are looking for jobs, which seems pretty self-intuitive. They say that firms simply don't like to hire someone that has a very short track record (or none at all) when it comes to holding down a real full-time job. They also say that class ranking is important as well as where you went, but in the end it is your ability to network and kill interviews that will ultimately decide it all. I've gotten every legal job I've ever interviewed for, so I am hoping that this will help me to avoid the fate of the unemployed, indebted law grad. Also, are your unemployed friends just not finding jobs at all or are they just not finding the ones they want?

Personally, I think that if you're expecting to come out of college and enter law school with no work experience, then yeah, maybe it's not a greatest idea to go to a TT or TTT without a significant scholly. The times when companies and firms were able to give big salaries to unproven young kids in their early-to-mid 20's have come and gone, unless of course you're T14 and/or top 25% of your class.

[Nelson]

I'm sorry things aren't working out for your friends. Just a curious question, did your unemployed friends have jobs before going to law school? If so, what kind? I'm honestly trying to see if it makes a difference or not because I've been told by the lawyers I work with that having work experience really helps you once you get your JD and are looking for jobs, which seems pretty self-intuitive.

Your work experience is neither unique nor impressive. Most new JDs have a couple of years work experience.

They say that firms simply don't like to hire someone that has a very short track record (or none at all) when it comes to holding down a real full-time job.

You have a short track record.

They also say that class ranking is important as well as where you went, but in the end it is your ability to network and kill interviews that will ultimately decide it all.

Good luck getting NYC biglaw interviews out of Rutgers or Seton Hall.

I've gotten every legal job I've ever interviewed for, so I am hoping that this will help me to avoid the fate of the unemployed, indebted law grad.

This is not the same as getting a JD required job after law school.

Personally, I think that if you're expecting to come out of college and enter law school with no work experience, then yeah, maybe it's not a greatest idea to go to a TT or TTT without a significant scholly. The times when companies and firms were able to give big salaries to unproven young kids in their early-to-mid 20's have come and gone, unless of course you're T14 and/or top 25% of your class.

I don't know why you think you're any different than anyone else on TLS. You are not a nontrad with years of impressive business or management experience. You have a pretty average resume that is not going to help you outperform your school's placement power or your grades.

[bobbyh1919]

School reputation and class rank are going to trump work experience as a paralegal any day of the week. You may be a fantastic interviewer with a great personality and a strong work ethic, but the point so many others are making is that going to a T2 school makes it that much more difficult to even get your foot in the door and thus limits your opportunities to utilize those strengths.

Given your choice, I once again say Rutgers. I'm from Jersey and my law advisors have given me stern warnings about Seton Hall. May just be their preferences, but it has really influenced my thinking.

[iceicebaby]

School reputation and class rank are going to trump work experience as a paralegal any day of the week. You may be a fantastic interviewer with a great personality and a strong work ethic, but the point so many others are making is that going to a T2 school makes it that much more difficult to even get your foot in the door and thus limits your opportunities to utilize those strengths.

Given your choice, I once again say Rutgers. I'm from Jersey and my law advisors have given me stern warnings about Seton Hall. May just be their preferences, but it has really influenced my thinking.

Hey, thanks. This is helpful, and I believe Rutgers is still the better choice between the two now.

I'm sorry things aren't working out for your friends. Just a curious question, did your unemployed friends have jobs before going to law school? If so, what kind? I'm honestly trying to see if it makes a difference or not because I've been told by the lawyers I work with that having work experience really helps you once you get your JD and are looking for jobs, which seems pretty self-intuitive.

Your work experience is neither unique nor impressive. Most new JDs have a couple of years work experience.

They say that firms simply don't like to hire someone that has a very short track record (or none at all) when it comes to holding down a real full-time job.

You have a short track record.

They also say that class ranking is important as well as where you went, but in the end it is your ability to network and kill interviews that will ultimately decide it all.

Good luck getting NYC biglaw interviews out of Rutgers or Seton Hall.

I've gotten every legal job I've ever interviewed for, so I am hoping that this will help me to avoid the fate of the unemployed, indebted law grad.

This is not the same as getting a JD required job after law school.

Personally, I think that if you're expecting to come out of college and enter law school with no work experience, then yeah, maybe it's not a greatest idea to go to a TT or TTT without a significant scholly. The times when companies and firms were able to give big salaries to unproven young kids in their early-to-mid 20's have come and gone, unless of course you're T14 and/or top 25% of your class.

I don't know why you think you're any different than anyone else on TLS. You are not a nontrad with years of impressive business or management experience. You have a pretty average resume that is not going to help you outperform your school's placement power or your grades.

You're right, I'm overly optimistic like many other 0Ls on TLS. Personally speaking, it's better than wallowing and being stuck in the mindset that the jobs just don't exist for law grads. The truth is that jobs are hard to come by in every field these days, but my point remains that it hasn't yet deterred me from getting the ones I wanted/applied for.

[Mr. Somebody]

School reputation and class rank are going to trump work experience as a paralegal any day of the week. You may be a fantastic interviewer with a great personality and a strong work ethic, but the point so many others are making is that going to a T2 school makes it that much more difficult to even get your foot in the door and thus limits your opportunities to utilize those strengths.

Given your choice, I once again say Rutgers. I'm from Jersey and my law advisors have given me stern warnings about Seton Hall. May just be their preferences, but it has really influenced my thinking.

Hey, thanks. This is helpful, and I believe Rutgers is still the better choice between the two now.

I'm sorry things aren't working out for your friends. Just a curious question, did your unemployed friends have jobs before going to law school? If so, what kind? I'm honestly trying to see if it makes a difference or not because I've been told by the lawyers I work with that having work experience really helps you once you get your JD and are looking for jobs, which seems pretty self-intuitive.

Your work experience is neither unique nor impressive. Most new JDs have a couple of years work experience.

They say that firms simply don't like to hire someone that has a very short track record (or none at all) when it comes to holding down a real full-time job.

You have a short track record.

They also say that class ranking is important as well as where you went, but in the end it is your ability to network and kill interviews that will ultimately decide it all.

Good luck getting NYC biglaw interviews out of Rutgers or Seton Hall.

I've gotten every legal job I've ever interviewed for, so I am hoping that this will help me to avoid the fate of the unemployed, indebted law grad.

This is not the same as getting a JD required job after law school.

Personally, I think that if you're expecting to come out of college and enter law school with no work experience, then yeah, maybe it's not a greatest idea to go to a TT or TTT without a significant scholly. The times when companies and firms were able to give big salaries to unproven young kids in their early-to-mid 20's have come and gone, unless of course you're T14 and/or top 25% of your class.

I don't know why you think you're any different than anyone else on TLS. You are not a nontrad with years of impressive business or management experience. You have a pretty average resume that is not going to help you outperform your school's placement power or your grades.

You're right, I'm overly optimistic like many other 0Ls on TLS. Personally speaking, it's better than wallowing and being stuck in the mindset that the jobs just don't exist for law grads. The truth is that jobs are hard to come by in every field these days, but my point remains that it hasn't yet deterred me from getting the ones I wanted/applied for.

What jobs have you gotten so far? I hope you're not talking about your paralegal position. Paralegal jobs are not hard to get.

[romothesavior]

Just a curious question, did your unemployed friends have jobs before going to law school?

Some of them did, but some of them didn't. I would say work experience is a small boost during OCI, but usually won't make up for grades. Unless it is fantastic work experience, it is just a soft factor, kind of like it is for law school. Being a paralegal will maybe help you a little bit, but it isn't going to make a Rutgers student more attractive than some 22 year old at NYU who is fresh out of college. The wisdom of that can certainly be questioned, but grades and school trump just about every other factor.

Getting a job at most solid firms is actually a lot of like applying for law school, actually. It's a numbers game. Just like law school requires some combination of LSAT and GPA, firms look for a combination of grades and school rank. For well-paying firms, those are absolutely the two main criteria and they won't shy away from telling you that.

I think one of the most common mistakes that 0Ls make is that they assume that the jobless grads are some combination of lazy, awkward, lacking in real world experience, entitled, etc., and then assume that they will avoid the same fate because they don't possess those qualities. Tens of thousands of people go to law school every year thinking they are special snowflakes, and tens of thousands come out on the other end depressed, un- or underemployed, and saddled with crippling debt and a degree that is next to worthless. I really don't exaggerate or embellish when I say that some of the most fantastic people I know still do not have jobs. Some of the most fantastic 3Ls from last year graduated without them and didn't know what to do. I'm talking about people with decent grades, great personalities, work experience, you name it. And I go to a school with a much, much better reputation than either of these two you are considering. The market is just brutally hard, and NJ is one of the toughest places to get a job. When it gets to the point where even law professors (see: Brian Tamanaha, Paul Campos) are questioning the system and calling law school a scam, you know it is real.

[iceicebaby]

School reputation and class rank are going to trump work experience as a paralegal any day of the week. You may be a fantastic interviewer with a great personality and a strong work ethic, but the point so many others are making is that going to a T2 school makes it that much more difficult to even get your foot in the door and thus limits your opportunities to utilize those strengths.

Given your choice, I once again say Rutgers. I'm from Jersey and my law advisors have given me stern warnings about Seton Hall. May just be their preferences, but it has really influenced my thinking.

Hey, thanks. This is helpful, and I believe Rutgers is still the better choice between the two now.

I'm sorry things aren't working out for your friends. Just a curious question, did your unemployed friends have jobs before going to law school? If so, what kind? I'm honestly trying to see if it makes a difference or not because I've been told by the lawyers I work with that having work experience really helps you once you get your JD and are looking for jobs, which seems pretty self-intuitive.

Your work experience is neither unique nor impressive. Most new JDs have a couple of years work experience.

They say that firms simply don't like to hire someone that has a very short track record (or none at all) when it comes to holding down a real full-time job.

You have a short track record.

They also say that class ranking is important as well as where you went, but in the end it is your ability to network and kill interviews that will ultimately decide it all.

Good luck getting NYC biglaw interviews out of Rutgers or Seton Hall.

I've gotten every legal job I've ever interviewed for, so I am hoping that this will help me to avoid the fate of the unemployed, indebted law grad.

This is not the same as getting a JD required job after law school.

Personally, I think that if you're expecting to come out of college and enter law school with no work experience, then yeah, maybe it's not a greatest idea to go to a TT or TTT without a significant scholly. The times when companies and firms were able to give big salaries to unproven young kids in their early-to-mid 20's have come and gone, unless of course you're T14 and/or top 25% of your class.

I don't know why you think you're any different than anyone else on TLS. You are not a nontrad with years of impressive business or management experience. You have a pretty average resume that is not going to help you outperform your school's placement power or your grades.

You're right, I'm overly optimistic like many other 0Ls on TLS. Personally speaking, it's better than wallowing and being stuck in the mindset that the jobs just don't exist for law grads. The truth is that jobs are hard to come by in every field these days, but my point remains that it hasn't yet deterred me from getting the ones I wanted/applied for.

What jobs have you gotten so far? I hope you're not talking about your paralegal position. Paralegal jobs are not hard to get.

They are hard to come by/hard to get for firms in the NLJ250 in Manhattan during a down economy, trust me.

Just a curious question, did your unemployed friends have jobs before going to law school?

Some of them did, but some of them didn't. I would say work experience is a small boost during OCI, but usually won't make up for grades. Unless it is fantastic work experience, it is just a soft factor, kind of like it is for law school. Being a paralegal will maybe help you a little bit, but it isn't going to make a Rutgers student more attractive than some 22 year old at NYU who is fresh out of college. The wisdom of that can certainly be questioned, but grades and school trump just about every other factor.

Getting a job at most solid firms is actually a lot of like applying for law school, actually. It's a numbers game. Just like law school requires some combination of LSAT and GPA, firms look for a combination of grades and school rank. For well-paying firms, those are absolutely the two main criteria and they won't shy away from telling you that.

I think one of the most common mistakes that 0Ls make is that they assume that the jobless grads are some combination of lazy, awkward, lacking in real world experience, entitled, etc., and then assume that they will avoid the same fate because they don't possess those qualities. Tens of thousands of people go to law school every year thinking they are special snowflakes, and tens of thousands come out on the other end depressed, un- or underemployed, and saddled with crippling debt and a degree that is next to worthless. I really don't exaggerate or embellish when I say that some of the most fantastic people I know still do not have jobs. Some of the most fantastic 3Ls from last year graduated without them and didn't know what to do. I'm talking about people with decent grades, great personalities, work experience, you name it. And I go to a school with a much, much better reputation than either of these two you are considering. The market is just brutally hard, and NJ is one of the toughest places to get a job. When it gets to the point where even law professors (see: Brian Tamanaha, Paul Campos) are questioning the system and calling law school a scam, you know it is real.

Fair enough. I'm not going to be deterred from going to law school, though, just because there are some people that aren't currently succeeding coming out of law school. I get that perhaps starting in 2007 - 2010 was perhaps a bad time to start law school and finish your degree amidst sharp increases in applications and even steeper decreases in law grad hiring. Apps are down 20% or something thus far this cycle and schools are getting better about employment reporting and placing more emphasis on their career services resources. I have 3 years to let the economy improve, so it is really tough to figure that the joblessness amongst recent law grads now will remain the same in 3 years from now.

[mrtoren]

Fair enough. I'm not going to be deterred from going to law school, though, just because there are some people that aren't currently succeeding coming out of law school. I get that perhaps starting in 2007 - 2010 was perhaps a bad time to start law school and finish your degree amidst sharp increases in applications and even steeper decreases in law grad hiring. Apps are down 20% or something thus far this cycle and schools are getting better about employment reporting and placing more emphasis on their career services resources. I have 3 years to let the economy improve, so it is really tough to figure that the joblessness amongst recent law grads now will remain the same in 3 years from now.

Statistics can be twisted to support any agenda and these forums are determined to incite as much fear as possible. The numbers show that the overwhelming majority of Rutgers law students find permanent, meaningful employment in the legal field. Despite this, the arrogant, introverted, or otherwise socially inept members here (especially those who are striking out at BETTER schools) will do anything they can to convince themselves that their problem is not their responsibility; its the fault of someone or something else. They reinforce this by disparaging and humiliating others.

If you're a fairly normal individual, lacking the above qualities, and are willing to hustle for work, you'll find it. You make your own opportunities. They may not be six figure opportunities, but that's not a secure reality for anyone anymore. Don't let yourself be brought down by petty, jealous, insecure, and unemployed strike-outs.

[Wholigan]

Fair enough. I'm not going to be deterred from going to law school, though, just because there are some people that aren't currently succeeding coming out of law school. I get that perhaps starting in 2007 - 2010 was perhaps a bad time to start law school and finish your degree amidst sharp increases in applications and even steeper decreases in law grad hiring. Apps are down 20% or something thus far this cycle and schools are getting better about employment reporting and placing more emphasis on their career services resources. I have 3 years to let the economy improve, so it is really tough to figure that the joblessness amongst recent law grads now will remain the same in 3 years from now.

So your argument as to why it will get better is because the oversupply is diminishing, right? Basically, that many of those who are choosing between going to law schools with poor placement and foregoing law school are now better informed and thus deciding on the latter. Yet your solution for yourself is to choose the former?

If you pick one of these, pick Rutgers. But don't expect to get a job in NY. Maybe if the law schools stop cranking out so many JDs each year (which is unlikely despite applications being down this one year), the situation will improve. But hiring is not going back to 2005-2007 levels, as you seem to imply.

[Nelson]

Statistics can be twisted to support any agenda and these forums are determined to incite as much fear as possible. The numbers show that the overwhelming majority of Rutgers law students find permanent, meaningful employment in the legal field. Despite this, the arrogant, introverted, or otherwise socially inept members here (especially those who are striking out at BETTER schools) will do anything they can to convince themselves that their problem is not their responsibility; its the fault of someone or something else. They reinforce this by disparaging and humiliating others.

If you're a fairly normal individual, lacking the above qualities, and are willing to hustle for work, you'll find it. You make your own opportunities. They may not be six figure opportunities, but that's not a secure reality for anyone anymore. Don't let yourself be brought down by petty, jealous, insecure, and unemployed strike-outs.

The point isn't that people don't find jobs (although you're understating the number of Rutgers grads who will find themselves in nonlegal work). It's that Rutgers grads don't get jobs that pay enough to justify six figures in debt. And not sure what you're trying to justify as a 0L, but you're the one flinging the ad hominems around.

ETA: Also, I think Romo is one of the more rational, balanced posters on TLS and I believe he has a firm job.

[iceicebaby]

Fair enough. I'm not going to be deterred from going to law school, though, just because there are some people that aren't currently succeeding coming out of law school. I get that perhaps starting in 2007 - 2010 was perhaps a bad time to start law school and finish your degree amidst sharp increases in applications and even steeper decreases in law grad hiring. Apps are down 20% or something thus far this cycle and schools are getting better about employment reporting and placing more emphasis on their career services resources. I have 3 years to let the economy improve, so it is really tough to figure that the joblessness amongst recent law grads now will remain the same in 3 years from now.

So your argument as to why it will get better is because the oversupply is diminishing, right? Basically, that many of those who are choosing between going to law schools with poor placement and foregoing law school are now better informed and thus deciding on the latter. Yet your solution for yourself is to choose the former?

If you pick one of these, pick Rutgers. But don't expect to get a job in NY. Maybe if the law schools stop cranking out so many JDs each year (which is unlikely despite applications being down this one year), the situation will improve. But hiring is not going back to 2005-2007 levels, as you seem to imply.

No, see I never expected that hiring levels will go back to 2005-2007. I think it would be foolish to assume that. I am not making any claims here other than me thinking it is silly to be deterred from going to law school because the current job climate for recent law grads isn't as stellar as it used to be. My point is that one cannot predict how the climate will be in 3 years, just as I am sure that people that entered law school in 2005 - 2007 didn't expect the economy to crash and leave them without jobs in 2008 - 2010.

I also know that I can't expect a NYC job per se coming from Rutgers, but I do know their grads can often penetrate the market. I know three grads from there at my old NLJ250 firm in Manhattan and while they were some of the higher ranked grads in their respective classes, my point is that it can be done coming from Rutgers-Newark. Paying $22,000/year in tuition for the chance to have those kinds of jobs doesn't seem like that bad of a gamble for me. But Seton Hall's $31,000/year (with my scholly) is probably a much riskier venture. This is why I'm leaning toward Rutgers-Newark until someone (I don't know who) can make a solid enough case for going to Seton Hall over it.

[romothesavior]

ETA: Also, I think Romo is one of the more rational, balanced posters on TLS and I believe he has a firm job.

Thank you, and yes I do. I don't hate on law school world because I am bitter or anything. I knew what I was doing when I came in and things worked out for me. I hate on the law school world because it really is a scam, and tens of thousands of people are being suckered by the system. If it weren't for TLS, I wouldn't be where I am now. I'd probably be at some TTT spending way too much money and lamenting my joblessness. I just want to pass the message on.

mrtoren, when you say "statistics," what statistics are you citing exactly? And even assuming OP finds permanent legal work, is it worth the three years of lost salary and the tuition money to work in some miserable 40-50k job? That's the question we're asking here.

[iceicebaby]

ETA: Also, I think Romo is one of the more rational, balanced posters on TLS and I believe he has a firm job.

Thank you, and yes I do. I don't hate on law school world because I am bitter or anything. I knew what I was doing when I came in and things worked out for me. I hate on the law school world because it really is a scam, and tens of thousands of people are being suckered by the system. If it weren't for TLS, I wouldn't be where I am now. I'd probably be at some TTT spending way too much money and lamenting my joblessness. I just want to pass the message on.

mrtoren, when you say "statistics," what statistics are you citing exactly? And even assuming OP finds permanent legal work, is it worth the three years of lost salary and the tuition money to work in some miserable 40-50k job? That's the question we're asking here.

We're talking extremes here... on the one extreme Rutgers can get you a $160k/year job (sorry, but this fact is backed up by people I personally know that got this salary graduating from Rutgers), and then you can also get a clerkship for 40k-50k, which is what I currently make as a paralegal. But the difference is that the clerkship leads to other opportunities. There are plenty of examples of lateral hiring from clerkships, and I've read somewhere on here and have observed that lateral hiring is becoming more prevalent these days compared to how it used to be. Even if you get the latter type of job, you can still afford your loans in the short term as I know people that went to my undergrad and accrued well over $200k in student loan debt, but still manage to pay these loans with their meager post-graduate salaries. Rutgers-N will barely leave me with under $120k in debt, and that is if I pay sticker and max out my CoL loans along with not having any help paying for school. Granted that is not the best thing to accrue debt, but like I said, in the short term it is more than manageable. The long term prospects are what I am interested in, and it has been observed by respectable sources such as the NLJ that the both the short and long term prospects for Rutgers law grads are generally pretty good. Besides, the median of students tend to earn ~$80k/year, and I am more than fine with that figure. Sure, I may not be able to angle getting a BigLaw job, but the point is that it is cheap enough to allow me to get there via a different, longer progression of employment if I really needed to. It's all up to me.

But I appreciate the thoughts, because they are definitely important and should be considered by anyone looking to attend law school these days. I understand that I am taking a risk by going to a non-T14 at sticker or without a considerable scholarship, but I know that in order to get paid some steep dividends or reap life-long rewards, you typically have to take these kinds of risks.

[bobbyh1919]

Just remember that all of us 0L's will be doing OCI in about 18 months or so, not 3 years. Not trying to split hairs, but it's important to keep in mind that we'll be looking for work in some slight variation of our current economy, not some distant economy that may be much much better.

[Wholigan]

OK… you are obviously not going to listen, but there are just too many fallacies here to ignore. FWIW, I am not a “law school is a scam” person either, and I have a job too.

on the one extreme Rutgers can get you a $160k/year job (sorry, but this fact is backed up by people I personally know that got this salary graduating from Rutgers), and then you can also get a clerkship for 40k-50k, which is what I currently make as a paralegal. But the difference is that the clerkship leads to other opportunities.

Yes, it is possible you can get a $160k job in NYC, if you are one of the top 4-5 people in your class. It is also true that you can get a NJ Law Division clerkship. The problem is that the “opportunities” those clerkships lead to are other $40-$50k/year jobs. In fact, I have it on solid authority that as of June last year, 20 of 22 trial level clerks in one NJ county still had no jobs lined up. (And the clerkships end in August).

I know people that went to my undergrad and accrued well over $200k in student loan debt, but still manage to pay these loans with their meager post-graduate salaries. Rutgers-N will barely leave me with under $120k in debt, and that is if I pay sticker and max out my CoL loans along with not having any help paying for school.

That’s great that you know 22 year old kids able to pay these loans and still survive. You can live in a shoebox and eat ramen noodles when you’re 22. How about when you’re 30. Do you want to forego being able to start a family and buy a house, and still live with a roommate in a shoebox when you’re 30, because you are paying 30 or 40% of your disposable income on law school loans?

Besides, the median of students tend to earn ~$80k/year, and I am more than fine with that figure

First of all, the median student at these schools is not earning $80k. This is the median of reported salaries, which represents a fraction of the class. Second, almost no one actually makes median. You either get a midlaw/biglaw job paying $110k - $160k or you are likely earning $40-50k. You are probably more likely to earn $160k that you are to earn the “median”.

[bobbyh1919]

ETA: Also, I think Romo is one of the more rational, balanced posters on TLS and I believe he has a firm job.

Thank you, and yes I do. I don't hate on law school world because I am bitter or anything. I knew what I was doing when I came in and things worked out for me. I hate on the law school world because it really is a scam, and tens of thousands of people are being suckered by the system. If it weren't for TLS, I wouldn't be where I am now. I'd probably be at some TTT spending way too much money and lamenting my joblessness. I just want to pass the message on.

mrtoren, when you say "statistics," what statistics are you citing exactly? And even assuming OP finds permanent legal work, is it worth the three years of lost salary and the tuition money to work in some miserable 40-50k job? That's the question we're asking here.

We're talking extremes here... on the one extreme Rutgers can get you a $160k/year job (sorry, but this fact is backed up by people I personally know that got this salary graduating from Rutgers), and then you can also get a clerkship for 40k-50k, which is what I currently make as a paralegal. But the difference is that the clerkship leads to other opportunities. There are plenty of examples of lateral hiring from clerkships, and I've read somewhere on here and have observed that lateral hiring is becoming more prevalent these days compared to how it used to be. Even if you get the latter type of job, you can still afford your loans in the short term as I know people that went to my undergrad and accrued well over $200k in student loan debt, but still manage to pay these loans with their meager post-graduate salaries. Rutgers-N will barely leave me with under $120k in debt, and that is if I pay sticker and max out my CoL loans along with not having any help paying for school. Granted that is not the best thing to accrue debt, but like I said, in the short term it is more than manageable. The long term prospects are what I am interested in, and it has been observed by respectable sources such as the NLJ that the both the short and long term prospects for Rutgers law grads are generally pretty good. Besides, the median of students tend to earn ~$80k/year, and I am more than fine with that figure. Sure, I may not be able to angle getting a BigLaw job, but the point is that it is cheap enough to allow me to get there via a different, longer progression of employment if I really needed to. It's all up to me.

But I appreciate the thoughts, because they are definitely important and should be considered by anyone looking to attend law school these days. I understand that I am taking a risk by going to a non-T14 at sticker or without a considerable scholarship, but I know that in order to get paid some steep dividends or reap life-long rewards, you typically have to take these kinds of risks.

The other extreme is unemployment though, which about 16% of graduates faced at graduation (according to the most recent Law School Transparency data I could find). That means more people lacked a job than placed into Big Law at graduation. I personally like Rutgers and appreciate its reputation in NJ, but it would be a mistake to go in thinking that if you struggle you can always land in a clerkship paying almost 50K a year.

[2LT_CPG]

This thread is quickly turning into an argument against attending law school under any circumstances. The OP asked a very simple question, the answer to which no one seems to disagree with.

Rutgers.

Done.

[Nelson]

This thread is quickly turning into an argument against attending law school under any circumstances Rutgers at sticker price.

[iceicebaby]

ETA: Also, I think Romo is one of the more rational, balanced posters on TLS and I believe he has a firm job.

Thank you, and yes I do. I don't hate on law school world because I am bitter or anything. I knew what I was doing when I came in and things worked out for me. I hate on the law school world because it really is a scam, and tens of thousands of people are being suckered by the system. If it weren't for TLS, I wouldn't be where I am now. I'd probably be at some TTT spending way too much money and lamenting my joblessness. I just want to pass the message on.

mrtoren, when you say "statistics," what statistics are you citing exactly? And even assuming OP finds permanent legal work, is it worth the three years of lost salary and the tuition money to work in some miserable 40-50k job? That's the question we're asking here.

We're talking extremes here... on the one extreme Rutgers can get you a $160k/year job (sorry, but this fact is backed up by people I personally know that got this salary graduating from Rutgers), and then you can also get a clerkship for 40k-50k, which is what I currently make as a paralegal. But the difference is that the clerkship leads to other opportunities. There are plenty of examples of lateral hiring from clerkships, and I've read somewhere on here and have observed that lateral hiring is becoming more prevalent these days compared to how it used to be. Even if you get the latter type of job, you can still afford your loans in the short term as I know people that went to my undergrad and accrued well over $200k in student loan debt, but still manage to pay these loans with their meager post-graduate salaries. Rutgers-N will barely leave me with under $120k in debt, and that is if I pay sticker and max out my CoL loans along with not having any help paying for school. Granted that is not the best thing to accrue debt, but like I said, in the short term it is more than manageable. The long term prospects are what I am interested in, and it has been observed by respectable sources such as the NLJ that the both the short and long term prospects for Rutgers law grads are generally pretty good. Besides, the median of students tend to earn ~$80k/year, and I am more than fine with that figure. Sure, I may not be able to angle getting a BigLaw job, but the point is that it is cheap enough to allow me to get there via a different, longer progression of employment if I really needed to. It's all up to me.

But I appreciate the thoughts, because they are definitely important and should be considered by anyone looking to attend law school these days. I understand that I am taking a risk by going to a non-T14 at sticker or without a considerable scholarship, but I know that in order to get paid some steep dividends or reap life-long rewards, you typically have to take these kinds of risks.

The other extreme is unemployment though, which about 16% of graduates faced at graduation (according to the most recent Law School Transparency data I could find). That means more people lacked a job than placed into Big Law at graduation. I personally like Rutgers and appreciate its reputation in NJ, but it would be a mistake to go in thinking that if you struggle you can always land in a clerkship paying almost 50K a year.

I think everyone knows that if you mess up at any school, let alone Rutgers-Newark, you're pretty screwed regardless. I just really don't see myself being in the bottom of the class. Call it blind optimism, but I just feel that way. Also, keep in mind that not having a job at graduation, while shitty, doesn't mean you won't get one within the next few months after graduation and after you pass the Bar Exam. Apparently 95% of Rutgers-Newark grads are employed 9 months after graduation. I will make no claims regarding the quality and reliability of this statistic, but I think the point is that having an 85% chance that I will get some sort of job that will likely be better than my current one upon graduating is still pretty damn good. If I have to work a part-time shit job for a while until I finally land something good, then so be it. I still maintain that it will never even come to that, though.

This thread is quickly turning into an argument against attending law school under any circumstances. The OP asked a very simple question, the answer to which no one seems to disagree with.

Rutgers.

Done.

THANK YOU!!!! I am indebted to you all for the feedback, even if it is positive, neutral or negative. I appreciate the friendly discourse and understand all of the views taken itt. It's a rough world out there for lawyers these days and definitely not as rosy as it once was and may never be again. All we can do is do the best we can with what we have. Unfortunately I wasn't an all-star on the LSAT and I partied way too hard like an idiot in college to have had a top GPA, so all I can do is go to the best place for me (and right now it seems that is Rutgers-Newark) and do the best I can there. Cheers.

[bobbyh1919]

Best of luck with everything man.

[iceicebaby]

Best of luck with everything man.

Thanks, man... I hope it all works out as well. It would suck to be eating my own words in a couple of years.

Best of luck to you as well!!! Thanks for the advice and feedback.

[Mr. Somebody]

I think everyone knows that if you mess up at any school, let alone Rutgers-Newark, you're pretty screwed regardless. I just really don't see myself being in the bottom of the class. Call it blind optimism, but I just feel that way. Also, keep in mind that not having a job at graduation, while shitty, doesn't mean you won't get one within the next few months after graduation and after you pass the Bar Exam. Apparently 95% of Rutgers-Newark grads are employed 9 months after graduation. I will make no claims regarding the quality and reliability of this statistic, but I think the point is that having an 85% chance that I will get some sort of job that will likely be better than my current one upon graduating is still pretty damn good. If I have to work a part-time shit job for a while until I finally land something good, then so be it. I still maintain that it will never even come to that, though..

General TLS wisdom is that if you don't find a job within 6-9 months you are screwed because that's when the next class hits the market.