Michigan State University: On The Rise Forum

[jne381]

I was looking at the admission numbers for MSU for last year, and though it appeared that it gained significantly with regard to admission rate because of higher application numbers, it did not appear that MSU raised the numbers for GPA or LSAT score significantly.


2011 profile: (Will be the next cycle for US News)

Applications Received 3,732
Offers of Admission 1,189

Upper Quartile LSAT 160
Median LSAT 157
Lower Quartile LSAT 152

Upper Quartile UGPA 3.74
Median UGPA 3.54
Lower Quartile UGPA 3.22



For the previous year the numbers were (These were the last published numbers by US News)

2010 profile:

Applications Received 2,729
Offers of Admission 1,265

Upper Quartile LSAT 159
Median LSAT 155
Lower Quartile LSAT 152

Upper Quartile UGPA 3.74
Median UGPA 3.66
Lower Quartile UGPA 3.24


There was a slight rise, but not significant.

As a result, I don't think MSU ranking will improve much this coming year, but the Admissions office of MSU sent out this email this morning.

The Admissions Office began accepting applications for the 2012 incoming class on October 1. I’m pleased to share with you the attached report indicating that our application volume is approximately 15% larger than at the same time last year and double what our application volume was three years ago. This increase is particularly meaningful in light of a national pool that is likely to contract by 10%. The attached report also provides very encouraging information regarding the strength of the 2012 applicant pool in terms of LSAT, diversity, and gender.

Accompanied with these nice graphs:

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As a result, I do not think the MSU ranking will go up much in the next US News Report (although it certainly may), I do expect it to rise a substantial bit next year.

[BruceBarr]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the school. It has to do with more people choosing to go to law school. The more people that apply = the more qualified the selection.

[TommyK]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the school. It has to do with more people choosing to go to law school. The more people that apply = the more qualified the selection.

This isn't consistent with the information that has been released saying an overall decrease in applications across the board for law schools.

I think the biggest thing for MSU really was the name change from DCOL to MSU college of law. Its increased partnership with its parent institution probably allows it to draw on a much larger alumni base. They've also been pretty generous in scholarships. It's on its way out of the gutter, but there are so many tier 1 midwest public universities that it's going to be pretty crowded.

But it might fit a nice niche: it has a natural consumer market of undergrads from MSU and other Michigan folks who can't get into UM but want to stay in MI.

[jne381]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the school. It has to do with more people choosing to go to law school. The more people that apply = the more qualified the selection.

Read the graphs. There is more than a 100% increase in applications for MSU by the Nov. 22 timeframe since 2004. At the same time, the National applicant volume decreased by almost 30% since 2004. That is a sharp increase for MSU in the face of a substantial decline in the national average.

[thexfactor]

I think MSU will be ranked in the mid 60-70s within the next 5 years. However, I don't think the employment front will change much... It takes years for a school to solidify its reputation.
Look at WUSTL. Over the past 10 years it went from a school ranked in the high 30s to a tie with USC. The school's placement statistics according to NLJ250 is behind emory, fordham, ND, BU,BC etc. It takes a long time for a schools reputation to rise.

[jne381]

I think MSU will be ranked in the mid 60-70s within the next 5 years. However, I don't think the employment front will change much... It takes years for a school to solidify its reputation.
Look at WUSTL. Over the past 10 years it went from a school ranked in the high 30s to a tie with USC. The school's placement statistics according to NLJ250 is behind emory, fordham, ND, BU,BC etc. It takes a long time for a schools reputation to rise.

Though I largely agree with you that reputation takes a while to build, I don't think it will take MSU that long to get into the 70's in US News. I say this because of the sharp rise in numbers like the LSAT that are weighed so heavily in the US News ranking, and the fact that the rankings are so tight. MSU right now is ranked 95th, but it is only two positions away from 79 because there are so many ties.

Furthermore, reputation ranking is done on a national scale. Even though in terms of getting a job, it is the local perception that matters, for the ranking it is national. As stupid as this may sound or may actually be, when the football or basketball programs get national exposure as they have, it has a positive impact on the national reputation of the law school because it keeps the school in people's minds, and helps solidify the universities brand. So, the first Big Ten Championship Game in football, and possibly a Rose Bowl bid may help the law school in the reputation rankings, as crazy as that may seem.

[fatpeopleavenger]

Furthermore, reputation ranking is done on a national scale. Even though in terms of getting a job, it is the local perception that matters, for the ranking it is national. As stupid as this may sound or may actually be, when the football or basketball programs get national exposure as they have, it has a positive impact on the national reputation of the law school because it keeps the school in people's minds, and helps solidify the universities brand. So, the first Big Ten Championship Game in football, and possibly a Rose Bowl bid may help the law school in the reputation rankings, as crazy as that may seem.

For lay prestige, yeah. I do not think this is going to affect the employers' minds though.

[CanadianWolf]

A primary reason for the increase in applications to MSU is the number & amount of scholarships offered each cycle.

[89vision]

Didn't W&L put out rankings that had MSU about 20 spots than the US News? I thought I read that somewhere, but I could be wrong.

[CanadianWolf]

Not sure, but Wash & Lee rates & ranks law reviews.

[jne381]

Not sure, but Wash & Lee rates & ranks law reviews.

I think this is what you are talking about. The Law Journal at MSU does rank very well in comparison to what the school ranks in US News, but I have no idea what its current rank is.

[89vision]

Not sure, but Wash & Lee rates & ranks law reviews.

Yeah you're right. Finally found it on google. Do journal rankings impact the law school rankings?

[jne381]

Not sure, but Wash & Lee rates & ranks law reviews.

Yeah you're right. Finally found it on google. Do journal rankings impact the law school rankings?

I don't think that US News uses journal rankings in its rankings, but I am sure a good journal and a good ranking to go along with it can't hurt the reputation of the school.

[pillowpet]

I don't know... It appears that they are facing a decline.

Izzo hasn't really show up in the past two years and they have lost a lot of their key upperclassman. MSU has not gotten a top prospect in awhile and struggles to recruit in the Mid-west. A decline, here, isn't such a horrible thing though, especially since they have been on top for so long. But I think they'll bounce back.

[Bildungsroman]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the school. It has to do with more people choosing to go to law school. The more people that apply = the more qualified the selection.

Read the graphs. There is more than a 100% increase in applications for MSU by the Nov. 22 timeframe since 2004. At the same time, the National applicant volume decreased by almost 30% since 2004. That is a sharp increase for MSU in the face of a substantial decline in the national average.

The applicant pool is contracting but I'd like to see what the application numbers for individual schools will do. It's possible schools will on average see an increase in the number of apps each receives as cautious and increasingly well-informed applicants apply to more schools to increase their opportunities and scholarship considerations.

[TommyK]

It has nothing to do with the quality of the school. It has to do with more people choosing to go to law school. The more people that apply = the more qualified the selection.

Read the graphs. There is more than a 100% increase in applications for MSU by the Nov. 22 timeframe since 2004. At the same time, the National applicant volume decreased by almost 30% since 2004. That is a sharp increase for MSU in the face of a substantial decline in the national average.

The applicant pool is contracting but I'd like to see what the application numbers for individual schools will do. It's possible schools will on average see an increase in the number of apps each receives as cautious and increasingly well-informed applicants apply to more schools to increase their opportunities and scholarship considerations.

the individual schools' applicant pools has also been declining.

[jne381]

I don't know... It appears that they are facing a decline.

Izzo hasn't really show up in the past two years and they have lost a lot of their key upperclassman. MSU has not gotten a top prospect in awhile and struggles to recruit in the Mid-west. A decline, here, isn't such a horrible thing though, especially since they have been on top for so long. But I think they'll bounce back.

Ummm, they were in the Final Four the year before last, and the final the year before that. Also, they got their top pick a few weeks ago.

[FUBAR]

Cool graphs. Someday MSU might be a middle of the pack festering T2 school. Job prospects will continue to be problematic for students not in the top 10%.

[jne381]

I did not think MSU would rise much this year, but they moved up to 82 in US News.

Next year should be a considerable jump based on the numbers for the incoming class.

YAY!!!

[20130312]

I did not think MSU would rise much this year, but they moved up to 82 in US News.

Next year should be a considerable jump based on the numbers for the incoming class.

YAY!!!

It really is the little things in life.

[TTRansfer]

The funny thing is that they will still be viewed the exact same as the schools from ~70 on down to ~110 and simply be a regional school with regional job prospects. It's silly to put any stock in rankings in that range.

[jne381]

The funny thing is that they will still be viewed the exact same as the schools from ~70 on down to ~110 and simply be a regional school with regional job prospects. It's silly to put any stock in rankings in that range.

It is interesting that you think regional schools are those that start at 70. Try a number more like 35 for that designation to start.

In any case, it does help MSU because it will build on itself for future rankings. Also, it makes MSU the highest ranked regional school for Michigan because most of the U of M grads leave the state.

[Jaeger]

I did not think MSU would rise much this year, but they moved up to 82 in US News.

Next year should be a considerable jump based on the numbers for the incoming class.

YAY!!!

mebbe i should liek cash in on teh full tuition schoolly dey gave me eh?!31

[Jaeger]

The funny thing is that they will still be viewed the exact same as the schools from ~70 on down to ~110 and simply be a regional school with regional job prospects. It's silly to put any stock in rankings in that range.

It is interesting that you think regional schools are those that start at 70. Try a number more like 35 for that designation to start.

In any case, it does help MSU because it will build on itself for future rankings. Also, it makes MSU the highest ranked regional school for Michigan because most of the U of M grads leave the state.

More like 15.

[TTRansfer]

The funny thing is that they will still be viewed the exact same as the schools from ~70 on down to ~110 and simply be a regional school with regional job prospects. It's silly to put any stock in rankings in that range.

It is interesting that you think regional schools are those that start at 70. Try a number more like 35 for that designation to start.

In any case, it does help MSU because it will build on itself for future rankings. Also, it makes MSU the highest ranked regional school for Michigan because most of the U of M grads leave the state.

I just picked a random number, to be honest. But I think it's fair to say that schools from 70 on down have worse job prospects than 50 on up (for the most part).