IU v. UIUC Forum

[CanadianWolf]

Best course of action is to apply to 10 or 12 law schools this cycle to reveal your options. If you don't like the results, then consider retaking the LSAT.

With respect to your career goal of working in the field of civil rights law, I suspect that biglaw positions are more easily attained. If you want to work for a public interest firm or a small law firm, then getting substantial scholarship money should be a primary concern in order to be able to afford those career choices. There are several tier one law schools that should offer generous scholarships to one with work experience and a 3.9/164 numbers combination.

Consider: WashUStL, Wash & Lee, Illinois, Iowa, Indiana, Wisconsin, Alabama, Minnesota, Wake Forest, ASU, Colorado, SMU, & a couple of reaches. If you don't like the resulting options, then retake & reapply next cycle. But, it's important to know your actual options prior to making a decision; and those options will only be clear if you apply this cycle & examine the outcome.

P.S. If applications are down substantially this cycle, then recent history cannot be viewed as an accurate predictor of your results.

[JamMasterJ]

TLS is replete with examples of posters who took a year off, studied hard for the LSAT, and scored significantly higher. All of them would tell you that the opportunities that became available as a result of retaking made the decision to wait a year infinitely worth it. The difference between IUB and a school like Northwestern really cannot be overstated. UIUC is roughly twice as good for placement as IUB, and Northwestern is about twice as good at placement as UIUC (based on NLJ 250 data, which is the best metric for placement, not only for firms but for employment generally). The gap between a school like IUB and Northwestern is simply massive.

I have never heard a single person say they regret taking a year off and re-taking. On the other hand, I've heard dozens say the opposite (including myself). Take that FWIW. A few LSAT points could mean tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship money, or even could be the difference between graduating employed vs. graduating unemployed. I know it is the last thing in the entire world you want to do, but it is absolutely worth considering.

I am one of these examples. I had 8K per year to ND offer last year, Now, I could end up somewhere awesome.

[wildhaggis]

Based on your personals goals, the best advice is probably to take a year off to study, retake the LSAT, and generally take advantage of the time and flexibility that an extra year gives you. Somewhat surprisingly, taking a year off seems completely anathema to some prospective law students - do yourself a favor and don't fall into this mindset. Get a job, save some cash, improve your score, keep an eye on the state of the legal market, and make sure law school is still the right choice for you.

However, that being said, UIUC is the clear choice over IUB even given the current admissions scandal. IUB is wildly overrated and, as someone else already stated, places akin to a mediocre T2. Honestly, I'd be skeptical of Iowa as well. Of course, as peer schools, Notre Dame and WUSTL are also great substitutes.

[biglaw$]

Chicago is terribly over-saturated with lawyers.

Go to 'Bama and learn to love the South.

[Aberzombie1892]

Honestly, I wouldn't apply to IU. If they offer you a full ride, you will be tempted and it will be hard to resist the "but it's a T30 and they offered me a full ride..." train of thought. IUB is generally considered to be the weakest of the T50 midwestern schools, and it may be weaker than some beyond that border (this has nothing to do with NLJ placement - this deals with placement in general).

Retaking would be the right choice. If you choose not to, don't pay more than $15,000 a year in tuition wherever you go (but avoid schools like IUB, American, and Mason).

[Gail]

For someone with ties to Illinois (from Chicago burbs with contacts to burb lawyers) would it be probable to get back to Illinois with an IUB degree?


Is it crazy to think that it might be a good idea to go to a location where you don't have ties already? Kind of like diversifying your personal reach?

[Helmholtz]

Job prospects are horrendous out of IUB, and I would really worry about UIUC too in terms of being taught in an environment in which the administration has perpetuated a culture of fraud and deception

[Gail]

Well shit...

I don't know what to say.

Cost is too high at WUSTL/ND. T-14 is out of reach. Illinois is too corrupt for the cost. And Indiana can't place. Why don't we all just invent a time machine and fast forward to December 2012? End it all now.

[romothesavior]

Well shit...

I don't know what to say.

Cost is too high at WUSTL/ND. T-14 is out of reach. Illinois is too corrupt for the cost. And Indiana can't place. Why don't we all just invent a time machine and fast forward to December 2012? End it all now.

I dunno why you would say WUSTL/ND are too expensive but not Illinois. OOS at Illinois may cost you more than WUSTL. WUSTL is extremely generous with financial aid, and getting more generous every year.

Again though, I wouldn't attend any of them ITE without a huge scholarship.

[Gail]

Well. WUSTL is out of reach for me too. As is Illinois probably (just that I have a small chance at IL and without a 168, I have no chance at WUSTL). Damn. I thought my score would be good when I started this process. Guess not.

[wildhaggis]

Job prospects are horrendous out of IUB, and I would really worry about UIUC too in terms of being taught in an environment in which the administration has perpetuated a culture of fraud and deception

This... Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever.

[WSJ_Law]

Job prospects are horrendous out of IUB, and I would really worry about UIUC too in terms of being taught in an environment in which the administration has perpetuated a culture of fraud and deception

This... Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever.

lolwut

the school's administration is wildly corrupt and apparently has been for years. Their "ascent" in USNWR has largely been founded by outright fraud and ongoing patters of lying. 163 LSAT median LOL just LOL.

[wildhaggis]

Job prospects are horrendous out of IUB, and I would really worry about UIUC too in terms of being taught in an environment in which the administration has perpetuated a culture of fraud and deception

This... Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever.

lolwut

the school's administration is wildly corrupt and apparently has been for years. Their "ascent" in USNWR has largely been founded by outright fraud and ongoing patters of lying. 163 LSAT median LOL just LOL.

Right. And to the extent that this impacts rank or, more importantly, job prospects, OP should be concerned.

I assume you go to or have gone to law school, and therefore know that teaching faculty or the quality of their instruction is not necessarily impacted by fudging admissions numbers. In the long run, this may affect what professors stay or what professors UIUC is able to bring in (though even then, not so much), but I doubt any of OP's concerns with UIUC should be with "being taught in an environment in which the administration has perpetuated a culture of fraud and deception."

OP's concerns should be with job prospects, period. Changing the italicized to "obtaining a job" might make that statement make more sense.

[Helmholtz]

Right. And to the extent that this impacts rank or, more importantly, job prospects, OP should be concerned.

I assume you go to or have gone to law school, and therefore know that teaching faculty or the quality of their instruction is not necessarily impacted by fudging admissions numbers. In the long run, this may affect what professors stay or what professors UIUC is able to bring in (though even then, not so much), but I doubt any of OP's concerns with UIUC should be with "being taught in an environment in which the administration has perpetuated a culture of fraud and deception."

OP's concerns should be with job prospects, period. Changing the italicized to "obtaining a job" might make that statement make more sense.

All I'm saying is that UIUC seems to be an institute of repeated corruption. Just a coincidence that their name keeps coming up in news stories about a high-ranking administrative official who's neck deep in some corrupt or fraudulent activity? Who knows. Maybe professors take bribes on the side to bump up certain exam scores. Wouldn't surprise me one iota. It's obviously a school where ethics don't seem to matter much.

[IAFG]

Right. And to the extent that this impacts rank or, more importantly, job prospects, OP should be concerned.

I assume you go to or have gone to law school, and therefore know that teaching faculty or the quality of their instruction is not necessarily impacted by fudging admissions numbers. In the long run, this may affect what professors stay or what professors UIUC is able to bring in (though even then, not so much), but I doubt any of OP's concerns with UIUC should be with "being taught in an environment in which the administration has perpetuated a culture of fraud and deception."

OP's concerns should be with job prospects, period. Changing the italicized to "obtaining a job" might make that statement make more sense.

All I'm saying is that UIUC seems to be an institute of repeated corruption. Just a coincidence that their name keeps coming up in news stories about a high-ranking administrative official who's neck deep in some corrupt or fraudulent activity? Who knows. Maybe professors take bribes on the side to bump up certain exam scores. Wouldn't surprise me one iota. It's obviously a school where ethics don't seem to matter much.

Oh God don't give them ideas

[Grizz]

Chicago is terribly over-saturated with lawyers.

Go to 'Bama and learn to love the South.

If you're not a Southerner, you're going to be viewed with suspicion. Bad idea.

[Grizz]

Also, OP, for most people civil rights doesn't mean working for some public interest organization, it means working for a plaintiff's firm and doing 42 USC s 1983 claims. HTH.

[crazyblink653]

+1. yeah, most civil rights attorneys are plaintiff lawyers who focus on section 1983 claims (basically constitutional and tort claims against government officials). that said, i would agree that if this is what you want, you should focus on minimizing the amount of debt you have and/or going somewhere that has an excellent Loan Repayment Assistance Program.

[thexfactor]

UVA ED if you do not want to retake.

UVA has a lot better job prospects.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: William & Mary has a constitutional law curriculum that may be of interest to you.

[romothesavior]

OP: William & Mary has a constitutional law curriculum that may be of interest to you.

Not sure if srs.

[northside]

OP: William & Mary has a constitutional law curriculum that may be of interest to you.

Not sure if srs.

Wolf, Thanks for the info. Looking at LSN, it looks like they HAD a program that would be of interest but now it might be too late. What do you think? Too late? I'm still waiting on a letter to be processed.

Romo, going to be honest, I dont know what srs means...

[CanadianWolf]

Institute of the Bill of Rights at Wm. & Mary Law School. OP wants to do civil rights work which primarily focuses on constitutional rights. OP is not seeking biglaw. Also a 164/3.9 with demonstrated interest & work experience in civil rights should receive a scholarship award.

P.S. It means serious. I think the other poster asked if I was serious about recommending W&M because if you achieve a higher LSAT score, you would be a solid T-14 law school candidate with increased job placement opportunities.

[northside]

And actually wow, thanks guys. I don't know why I did not look at them before.

Post Conflict and Peace building was my undergraduate focus. I worked in South Africa for a few months doing Post-Apartheid reconstruction. My PS is about how I wanted to do Humanitarian Aid but in reflection realized that such things only address symptoms rather than root causes of conflicts. Certainly going to be filling out an application pending on what srs means

[northside]

Institute of the Bill of Rights at Wm. & Mary Law School. OP wants to do civil rights work which primarily focuses on constitutional rights. OP is not seeking biglaw. Also a 164/3.9 with demonstrated interest & work experience in civil rights should receive a scholarship award.

P.S. It means serious.

So I guess heres some more info. A Dual Undergraduate Degree in Political Thought and Peace, Conflict, & Justice Studies. 2 months of International peace building work in South Africa as well as internship at the Center for Peace and Justice in Chicago. I also have extensive course work in International Conflict Resolution (a thesis on solving the Japan/Korea conflicts & of course all of my stuff from when I worked in Africa). I also have a letter from my Constitutional Interpretation professor, who is a rising conlaw scholar and has worked very closely with me. Plus my current job as a civil rights legal assistant. Is it too late for WM. According to LSN they've already got a ton of acceptances. I'm really hating myself for not finding this sooner.