Law school employment rankings by region? Forum

[msuz]

I know that the Law Street Journal has an article (--LinkRemoved--) about this, but I couldnt find an actual detailed report with the breakdowns. Does anybody know where I can find it? If not, today I was browsing through some of the NLJ250 firms in my area looking at attorney profiles and the schools they went to and I was pretty surprised by some of them, and I thought that it would be interesting to put some data together for the people on TLS. Since I have a lot of free time, I want to know if people would be interested in it before I did it. Some points to consider:

1) I would probably break down the statistics primarily by region and school, because I feel like those are the most interesting stats. Everyone knows which degrees can go anywhere in the US, but not everyone knows which schools are feeding certain regions, and if you dont plan on working in NY/LA/CHI it could be worthwhile to see which schools are represented in these regions.
2) Within regions, I would break it down by the year the person graduated. I would need people's input on how far back to go, since Im sure people who are considering a school do not care if someone graduated in 1978. I'm thinking about only including attorneys that have graduated since 2000?
3) The regions would be followed up with statistical averages of the make-up of law school graduates that are employed at these firms.

Here is an example using made up stats:
DETROIT:
Miller, Canfield, Paddock and Stone
-University of Michigan, 2005
-Notre Dame, 2000
-Thomas M. Cooley, 2006

UM 33%
ND 33%
Cooley 33%

Dykema Gossett
-Duke, 2002
-University of Michigan, 2004

Duke 50%
UM 50%

Then, following this region, a summary of statsitics would go like this:
DETROIT REGION SUMMARY:
University of Michigan: 40%
Notre Dame: 20%
Duke: 20%
Cooley: 20%

Whether or not people are interested, I plan on making an excel spreadsheet for myself, at least for my own region. If there is any advice people want to give, if you think this is stupid, if there is a problem with methodology, let me know, but I think there could be some valuable info here. I actually do have experience doing menial data-input things like this. Thanks!

[Aberzombie1892]

There was recently a study published that showed the top 10 feeder schools in number of NLJ 100 partners in each major market since 1986. While your proposal is far more ambitious, I would start by looking that that study or focus your research on markets that are not Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, DC, New York, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Philadelphia, and Boston. So Detroit (as you have indicated), Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Birmingham, New Orleans, Jackson, Miami, Charlotte, Richmond, Pittsburgh, and so on and so forth.

The results from the prior study were shocking in that sense that Yale, Stanford, and NYU were significantly underrepresented in the partnership ranks.

[msuz]

There was recently a study published that showed the top 10 feeder schools in number of NLJ 100 partners in each major market since 1986. While your proposal is far more ambitious, I would start by looking that that study or focus your research on markets that are not Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, DC, New York, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Philadelphia, and Boston. So Detroit (as you have indicated), Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Birmingham, New Orleans, Jackson, Miami, Charlotte, Richmond, Pittsburgh, and so on and so forth.

The results from the prior study were shocking in that sense that Yale, Stanford, and NYU were significantly underrepresented in the partnership ranks.

Im assuming youre talking about this study? I skimmed through it, and it just makes me want to do this more. "The study’s most important conclusion is that hiring and partnering, even by national law firms, is remarkably local"

[Aberzombie1892]

That's the one. I believe that most people were already aware that hiring was, to a certain extent, local. For me, the value of the study was how each school compared to other schools. Your proposed study, in my opinion, would convey similar value but moreso for schools outside of the T14.

If you are studying associates as well as partners, I would limit the study to hires from the year 2000 on. That way, it would be more in line with modern trends than historical trends.

[Campagnolo]

Don't kill yourself finding data. Just look compile data on associates. For the most part, they are all going to have been hired within the last 7 or 8 years.

[neeko]

I would be interested in seeing this if you put it together.

[murray18]

+1

Awesome idea. I'd be very interested in seeing a chart like this for cities in the southeast.

[msuz]

+1

Awesome idea. I'd be very interested in seeing a chart like this for cities in the southeast.

Any cities in particular? Its much easier to find data on the associates if I can search the firm by city office location. If you give me a general location that a few people would be interested in, Ill try to get data for that one too. Try to confine it to one state if you can.

Ive started the spreadsheet for MI (Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Birmingham) and I think this is going to be interesting. If I really have no life, I may try to do a bigger market like Chicago to compare it to.

[Aberzombie1892]

+1

Awesome idea. I'd be very interested in seeing a chart like this for cities in the southeast.

Any cities in particular? Its much easier to find data on the associates if I can search the firm by city office location. If you give me a general location that a few people would be interested in, Ill try to get data for that one too. Try to confine it to one state if you can.

Ive started the spreadsheet for MI (Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Birmingham) and I think this is going to be interesting. If I really have no life, I may try to do a bigger market like Chicago to compare it to.

Well if the poster suggests the southeast, I would include:
Birmingham
Miami
New Orleans
Nashville
Richmond
Charlotte
Jackson
Charleston
and maybe a few others (Tallahassee? Baton Rouge?). I cannot think of any other medium-sized legal markets in the southeast off of the top of my heard.

[Opie]

I'd love to see this data for Des Moines, Omaha, Minneapolis, KC, and St. Louis.

[neeko]

I'd like to see Minneapolis as well. And Cleveland and Cincinnati.

[rinkrat19]

I'd love to see Portland and Seattle.

[murray18]

Specifically, I would love to see some data for Birmingham, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Orlando, and Tampa.

[IAFG]

Seems like a pretty easy thing to divide up and collect data on. Use NALP firms as your sample, then divide up by cities and firms, looking at associates graduating in the past 8 years. If I were a 0L I would have helped but I don't really have the time... I would maybe do one firm in one city though.

[rinkrat19]

I started doing Portland last night and got almost halfway through the NALP firms before my brain fried for the night. Several firms don't even list grad year, so I'm guessing whether they're 2000 or later based on the photo and other stuff listed in the profile.

There is a HUGE UW/Oregon/Lewis & Clark bias in Portland. For my sake, I hope it's self-selection bias and I'll be able to bring my NU JD home for a job. (At least I can claim 29 years of residency and owning a condo here as my "ties.")

Which school should be listed if someone has a JD and a LLM from different US schools?

[msuz]

I started doing Portland last night and got almost halfway through the NALP firms before my brain fried for the night. Several firms don't even list grad year, so I'm guessing whether they're 2000 or later based on the photo and other stuff listed in the profile.

There is a HUGE UW/Oregon/Lewis & Clark bias in Portland. For my sake, I hope it's self-selection bias and I'll be able to bring my T14 JD home for a job.

What school should be listed if someone has a JD and an LLM from different US schools?

Yeah, my brain pretty much fries after doing 1-2 firms lol. I am almost done with Detroit though.

For the JD/LLMs, Ive been using the JD then putting a parenthesis after for the LLM
"Michigan State (LLM GULC)"

For the data, I use the JD, but still leave it for the people who would want to look. Ive only had this happen 2 times out of 100 so far, and they have both been GULC taxation LLMs.

Ive changed to listing every assciate as well instead of only ones that have graduated post 2000, since most of them graduated after 2000 anyway. Also, many firms dont list bar/graduation dates on associate bios, so for the sake of statistical significance Im counting all associates. So far only 2/100 have been listed as graduating before 2000.

Also got a new idea - Im going to break down the employment by school Tiers as well. For Detroit, Wayne/UM/MSU seem to own the market, in that order, but everyone can see for themselves when I post the complete stats. There also seems to be a noticeable correlation between office location and grads employed there (IE Ann Arbor office=lots of UM grads, Detroit office=lots of Wayne grads)

Thanks for helping, I was starting to feel obligated to do every single US secondary market myself lol

[msuz]

Also... how should we do this? Post ITT as they are completed? Make a new thread for each city/region and post as they are completed? Posting ITT might be the most efficient for having all the info in one place, but it might look a little messy.

[Blessedassurance]

+1 for Seattle/Bellevue/Tacoma

[No13baby]

There is a HUGE UW/Oregon/Lewis & Clark bias in Portland. For my sake, I hope it's self-selection bias and I'll be able to bring my NU JD home for a job. (At least I can claim 29 years of residency and owning a condo here as my "ties.")

That's interesting - I've looked into a couple of the Seattle biglaw(ish) firms (dla piper, Davis Wright Tremaine, K&L Gates, Perkins Coie), and at least half of their more recent associates seem to come from ~T20s over places like UW or Seattle U. I'm not sure if it's an issue of these associates having local ties beforehand, or if these firms are actively recruiting at higher-ranked schools that aren't local.

Anyway, OP, I would be really interested in seeing your results from this project.

[ColtsFan88]

I would like to see Indianapolis if you have the time, as well.

[JK910]

I can try to do Philadelphia over the next 2 weeks... Where are you mining your data from? Do you have a sample spreadsheet you are using?

[BruceWayne]

There was recently a study published that showed the top 10 feeder schools in number of NLJ 100 partners in each major market since 1986. While your proposal is far more ambitious, I would start by looking that that study or focus your research on markets that are not Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, DC, New York, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Philadelphia, and Boston. So Detroit (as you have indicated), Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Birmingham, New Orleans, Jackson, Miami, Charlotte, Richmond, Pittsburgh, and so on and so forth.

The results from the prior study were shocking in that sense that Yale, Stanford, and NYU were significantly underrepresented in the partnership ranks.

There's no need to cut out Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Philly, and Boston. Isn't the OP interested in schools that place into any non NYC/Cali/DC/Chicago markets? Basically the one's other than TLS focuses on (although I'm not sure I'd include Chicago and California on that list)?

[msuz]

I can try to do Philadelphia over the next 2 weeks... Where are you mining your data from? Do you have a sample spreadsheet you are using?

Ive been looking at NLJ250 firms and getting the data from the ones that have base offices in the region Im looking at. So if the base office is detroit, but there also are offices in Lansing, Grand Rapids, etc. I am including those as well.

There's no need to cut out Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Philly, and Boston. Isn't the OP interested in schools that place into any non NYC/Cali/DC/Chicago markets? Basically the one's other than TLS focuses on (although I'm not sure I'd include Chicago and California on that list)?

In a narrow sense Im interested in my region and which schools feed the most into firms compared to the T14, especially the local T14 (UM). In a broader sense, Im interested in how competitive TTT and TT schools are compared to T1s in each region. I suspect that a lot of the T14 or bust mentality comes from people looking at very competitive markets like NY, Chicago, etc.

I know its been awhile, if all goes well I should finish it tonight.

[Opie]

I can try to do Philadelphia over the next 2 weeks... Where are you mining your data from? Do you have a sample spreadsheet you are using?

Ive been looking at NLJ250 firms and getting the data from the ones that have base offices in the region Im looking at. So if the base office is detroit, but there also are offices in Lansing, Grand Rapids, etc. I am including those as well.

There's no need to cut out Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Philly, and Boston. Isn't the OP interested in schools that place into any non NYC/Cali/DC/Chicago markets? Basically the one's other than TLS focuses on (although I'm not sure I'd include Chicago and California on that list)?

In a narrow sense Im interested in my region and which schools feed the most into firms compared to the T14, especially the local T14 (UM). In a broader sense, Im interested in how competitive TTT and TT schools are compared to T1s in each region. I suspect that a lot of the T14 or bust mentality comes from people looking at very competitive markets like NY, Chicago, etc.

I know its been awhile, if all goes well I should finish it tonight.

+1 to this. In my home town of Des Moines, the biggest firm (Nyemaster Goode) has more people from Drake (a local TTT) than any other school including Iowa which is only 2 hours away and has 51% resident enrollment (and thus many of its grads have ties to keep them in Iowa). Nyemaster Goode isn't exactly NLJ250, but they pay first year associates $90k in a low CoL market. Heck they pay summer associates $1500/wk. They do say that they are specifically looking for top 10% people though.

[msuz]

to the above poster, everytime you post something on TLS I have to re-read it because I just keep on repeating "hide ya wife, hide ya kids" in my head