. Forum

[msuz]

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[TommyK]

Background: 3.64 GPA, getting LSAT back in a week, not URM, will get no lower than 155 and probably no higher than 165. Looking to go into Criminal law to practice in Michigan or Chicago, but also open to other places in Midwest ie, Cleveland, Madison, etc.

I'm debt-averse, but I dont have huge undergrad debt so its not as big a problem for me as it might be for others. Schools on my list so far: DePaul, Case-Western, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Illinois. For the last three, not sure if I want to pay sticker at a higher ranked school though. And hell, Ill probably throw in a UM app just for kicks if I get into the mid 160s on the LSAT. Also applying to local T3. Am I missing any obvious ones?

Range of 155 - 165 is too large for anybody to offer any meaningful advice. Return when you have a real score.

Depending on your score, all are possibilities, but Notre Dame & Illinois are unlikely unless you hit the very top of your range.

Edit: CWRU is wicked expensive and IIRC, they give out a small scholarship to everybody, but are stingy with the big ones, so you'd be looking at $30k+/year anyways, which is more expensive than sticker at many in-state public schools.

[Kabuo]

Range of 155 - 165 is too large for anybody to offer any meaningful advice. Return when you have a real score.

Depending on your score, all are possibilities, but Notre Dame & Illinois are unlikely unless you hit the very top of your range.

CHECK YOU LSAT SCANDAL. ND is unlikely even at the top of your range. Illinois is probably going to be doable with a 164+ next year.

[msuz]

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[CanadianWolf]

Illinois' median LSAT is 163 this year & may be headed south due to negative publicity & fewer apps. Apply to Illinois if you score a 159/160 or above on the LSAT & see what happens. I believe that Illinois doesn't have an application fee.

[MrAnon]

If you know you don't want biglaw take the biggest scholarship from the worst school you get into.

[minnbills]

If you know you don't want biglaw take the biggest scholarship from the worst school you get into you get from a school in the region you want to practice.

If you want to do crim law- managing your debt is going to be a huge priority. In the event you do find employment, it will almost certainly be in the 30-50k range. So under no circumstances should you have a lot of debt.

I would take a look at Wisconsin- no bar exam if you stay in state.

Good luck!

[DocHawkeye]

I got into Michigan State last cycle with a 3.3 and 159. These earned me a 1/2 tuition scholarship. I suspect thought, that since MSU has moved into the 2nd Tier, this might not be the case for the upcoming cycle. Iowa might be worth a look if you end up near the top end of your LSAT range as well.

[romothesavior]

1. Pick the state/region where you want to go to school. You say Midwest, but pick somewhere, and preferably somewhere that isn't oversaturated.
2. GO FOR CHEAP. Paying more money to go to a T2 or lower T1 rather than going to a T3 for free would be a bad move, because the additional "prestige"of the degree won't take you that far. For crminal work (especially defense work, and especially especially in a smaller market), the school you go to does not matter nearly as much. Many (most?) of the lawyers in these firms are lower tier grads themselves, so you don't need an expensive Tier 1 degree. You still want to go to a somewhat respectable school and get good grades, but this isn't at all like biglaw hiring.
3. Sell yourself as being interested in criminal law early. You want to be seen as dedicated to this area of law, and not just use it as a backup plan.

I really think taking the biggest scholarship is the credited move here. Criminal law isn't a high paying field to start out, so keeping your debt low should be a priority. Why pay 130k+ in tuition for a degree from Notre Dame when your odds of a criminal law job aren't that much worse with a free degree from a TTT?

[msuz]

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[msuz]

1. Pick the state/region where you want to go to school. You say Midwest, but pick somewhere, and preferably somewhere that isn't oversaturated.
2. GO FOR CHEAP. Paying more money to go to a T2 or lower T1 rather than going to a T3 for free would be a bad move, because the additional "prestige"of the degree won't take you that far. For crminal work (especially defense work, and especially especially in a smaller market), the school you go to does not matter nearly as much. Many (most?) of the lawyers in these firms are lower tier grads themselves, so you don't need an expensive Tier 1 degree. You still want to go to a somewhat respectable school and get good grades, but this isn't at all like biglaw hiring.
3. Sell yourself as being interested in criminal law early. You want to be seen as dedicated to this area of law, and not just use it as a backup plan.

I really think taking the biggest scholarship is the credited move here. Criminal law isn't a high paying field to start out, so keeping your debt low should be a priority. Why pay 130k+ in tuition for a degree from Notre Dame when your odds of a criminal law job aren't that much worse with a free degree from a TTT?

All the advice here pretty much lines up with what Ive gleaned from the "Prosecution/PD Gunner" thread. I definitely am leaning towards whatever school I will have the lowest debt at, but If a school like ND would give a huge boost to job prospects later I would have to consider it. From what I am hearing, it doesnt.

[mattviphky]

Background: 3.64 GPA, getting LSAT back in a week, not URM, will get no lower than 155 and probably no higher than 165. Looking to go into Criminal law to practice in Michigan or Chicago, but also open to other places in Midwest ie, Cleveland, Madison, etc.

I'm debt-averse, but I dont have huge undergrad debt so its not as big a problem for me as it might be for others. Schools on my list so far: DePaul, Case-Western, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Illinois. For the last three, not sure if I want to pay sticker at a higher ranked school though. And hell, Ill probably throw in a UM app just for kicks if I get into the mid 160s on the LSAT. Also applying to local T3. Am I missing any obvious ones?

I second everything everyone has said. btw, there is like a 20 question difference between those two scores and even a 159 is vastly different from a 163. I hope you did indeed get that 165! If you are up in that range I think wisconsin would be a good bet. Someone mentioned the lower admissions standards of Illinois, idk if this is true, but you might as well apply and find out! Good luck

[dol1298]

Ohio st.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Keep in mind that you absolutely need to try and avoid scholarships with gpa/class rank stipulations. I have a feeling that a lot of the schools you are looking at have stipulations on their scholarships though.

[stuffnuff]

Keep in mind that you absolutely need to try and avoid scholarships with gpa/class rank stipulations. I have a feeling that a lot of the schools you are looking at have stipulations on their scholarships though.

[You Gotta Have Faith]

Probably add Chi-Kent and IU-B to your list as well, given you would like Chicago (or Michigan). Maybe Marquette too if you get enough money? Not sure.

[msuz]

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[msuz]

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[TommyK]

Your questions represent a misunderstanding that a lot of applicants have during the process - that certain schools are good for one kind of law and not good at another. With very few exceptions (maybe IP for UNH, formerly franklin pierce?), this just really isn't the case. Your goal shouldn't be to go to the school with the best criminal defense program. It should be to go to a school that has a decent reputation in the area that you want to practice and also has low cost of attendance (through either scholarship or low tuition). Any comparative benefits from school to school in quality of preparation for a particular practice of law will be so marginal that it will not have any noticeable effect. Take the advice given and find out the area you want to practice. If Ohio, go Ohio State; If Wisconsin, go to Wisc; if Indiana, go to IUB; if Illinois, go to UIUC, etc.

[msuz]

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[msuz]

Oh and one last question to piggy-back off of the last two posts... How much weight should I place on Law School Transparency's data about % of reported employment for my list of schools? I know the most recent data is from 2009 but UI (72%) and Depaul (64%) are by far the two schools with the highest % of reported salaries from my list of schools. Do the recent problems with fudging numbers affect this data at all, or is that only for the GPA/LSAT scores?

[TommyK]

Oh and one last question to piggy-back off of the last two posts... How much weight should I place on Law School Transparency's data about % of reported employment for my list of schools? I know the most recent data is from 2009 but UI (72%) and Depaul (64%) are by far the two schools with the highest % of reported salaries from my list of schools. Do the recent problems with fudging numbers affect this data at all, or is that only for the GPA/LSAT scores?

I think people will place varying amounts of importance on the percentage reporting. Certainly higher is better. But how much that should affect your decision is really up to you. I guess this is one of the reasons people are telling you to hold your horses and wait until you have a LSAT score, because UIUC/ND/IUB/Wisc/OSU may all be moot depending on your score, in which case you're probably wasting time thinking about it.

Really it makes much more sense to spend that time figuring out where you want to practice. That's an important decision and one you can decide based on the information you have now. Once you get your score, and once you know where you want to practice, figuring out the school list is pretty darn easy. Before you figure out both of these, it's just daydreaming of what your life would be like at each of these schools, which is fun, but also pretty worthless.

[msuz]

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[romothesavior]

Maybe Ill post my score here in a week.

Please do. You are one of the few 0Ls who don't make me want to pull my hair out, and you seem like a good dude. I'm sure TLS would help give you some general advice and point you in the right direction once you have your score. Good luck with your LSAT score.

[msuz]

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