UVA Law- worth it at sticker? Forum

[kingjones59]

Hey guys so I have posted about UVA in a few different forums so sorry if this comes off as repetitive but all the threads are slightly different. So here is what I am trying to decide:
I have a 3.95/165LSAT and am an Econ major. I know I have a pretty good chance at UVA with ED but also know I would have to pay sticker. I want to practice in BigLaw in NY or DC area, and I know UVA ranks in the top 5 for placement into the NLJ 250 firms, so thats a good sign. But my question is, is paying sticker price worth it? I will likely be able to cover living expenses, but tuition will have to be all in loans. I also know that with my econ degree I can probably get a job between 50-60,000$ out of undergrad, but there is probably a ceiling of between ~80-90,000$ mid-career unless I went to grad school for Economics. I really want to practice law, but the debt scares me, even at a top-10 school.

UVA- worth the sticker price?

Thank you!

[23402385985]

Depends on how debt averse you are. UVA is a really solid school.

If you are terrified of debt and don't want to gamble, then go to a lower ranked school and take the risk of worse placement but less debt. If you are comfortable holding debt and going to a really solid school, take the lesser risk of placement but carrying a larger debt.

It's really a personal opinion.

[Tiago Splitter]

I also know that with my econ degree I can probably get a job between 50-60,000$ out of undergrad,

I wouldn't count on that. At all.

I'd take UVA at sticker with those numbers. The drop to the next best option could be quite a ways.

[23402385985]

I also know that with my econ degree I can probably get a job between 50-60,000$ out of undergrad,

I wouldn't count on that. At all.

I'd take UVA at sticker with those numbers. The drop to the next best option could be quite a ways.

IMHO the only way to not take UVA at sticker is if you can get a completely free ride with no stips elsewhere that manages to place competitively. Or obviously a better school at sticker. But I am not as debt averse as others.

[Transferthrowaway]

a 3.95? In Economics?

I think you can do far better than UVA at sticker, man. Take a job for 2 years, get some experience and a little $$$ cushion, then retake the LSAT, score 170+ and enjoy HYSCCN.

[joeshmo39]

I think it is. Remember to keep in mind LRAP and IBR. Cost of living in C-ville is cheap too, so that's a plus.

I think that hiring has picked up this year, but picked up disproportionately so that for every extra person from a school ranked 30-80 a firm hires there are a dozen T-10 people the firm is willing to hire. That sentence makes little sense, but the bottom line is that the gap between the haves and haves notes seems to be widening. The way I know this is through speculation and anecdotes, so take it as you will, but it seems to be gaining traction. Maybe firms in a buyers market would just rather buy t-10 students than t-30 students with a higher class rank.

I hope my ramblings were helpful.

[BruceWayne]

I think it is. Remember to keep in mind LRAP and IBR. Cost of living in C-ville is cheap too, so that's a plus.

I think that hiring has picked up this year, but picked up disproportionately so that for every extra person from a school ranked 30-80 a firm hires there are a dozen T-10 people the firm is willing to hire. That sentence makes little sense, but the bottom line is that the gap between the haves and haves notes seems to be widening. The way I know this is through speculation and anecdotes, so take it as you will, but it seems to be gaining traction. Maybe firms in a buyers market would just rather buy t-10 students than t-30 students with a higher class rank.

I hope my ramblings were helpful.

I found this to be VERY untrue. If anything, it became readily apparent to me this recruiting season that many firms much rather have a top of the class top 50 student than a below mean UVA one.

My personal feeling on this OP is that, no, sticker at UVA for working in NYC or DC is not a good idea. I might even say that it's a bad idea. But a lot of that depends on one's options. If you can get a job paying 50K+ in this economy with just your undergrad degree (which is, as someone mentioned earlier, extremely difficult--assuming you go to an average undergrad--i.e not Duke or something).

Realize that if you go to UVA and don't pull a 3.4 GPA (top 1/3) things are going to be very dicey in terms of getting a firm job in DC or NYC. If you get below a 3.3 I would go so far as to say that you should expect not to get a firm job in NYC or DC. If you are willing to look at other markets where you have very strong ties to, the calculus might change. But understand that NYC and DC firms are mostly factories that look at school prestige, GPA/class rank, and to a lesser extent WE. They really don't flex with those requirements, and you'll be going in missing one of the 3, with no way to change it (lack of WE). Firms have a very bureaucratic hiring process. If you end up bottom 1/3 I would essentially rule out a DC firm job, and your chances of a NYC one are very close to 5 percent or worse. I know many many people without jobs at all, and many more with out firm jobs. Good luck OP. See what kind of money you can get from a school like Vanderbilt or Fordham.

[kingjones59]

I also know that with my econ degree I can probably get a job between 50-60,000$ out of undergrad,

I wouldn't count on that. At all.

I'd take UVA at sticker with those numbers. The drop to the next best option could be quite a ways.

I had an internship this summer that is likely to extend me an offer.

a 3.95? In Economics?

I think you can do far better than UVA at sticker, man. Take a job for 2 years, get some experience and a little $$$ cushion, then retake the LSAT, score 170+ and enjoy HYSCCN.

I took the October test. Didnt go as well as planned. I was PT'ing in the low 170's, but I dont think I cleared 168. the 3rd game killed me. My guess is between 165-168. I really do not want to take it again if I can get into a top-10 school anyways. I also want to ED asap because if I dont and my LSAT comes back as another 165 or (gasp) even worse, I know I do not have a chance at UVA with RD, and that my chances would still be lower with ED for every week I wait....

[kingjones59]

I think it is. Remember to keep in mind LRAP and IBR. Cost of living in C-ville is cheap too, so that's a plus.

I think that hiring has picked up this year, but picked up disproportionately so that for every extra person from a school ranked 30-80 a firm hires there are a dozen T-10 people the firm is willing to hire. That sentence makes little sense, but the bottom line is that the gap between the haves and haves notes seems to be widening. The way I know this is through speculation and anecdotes, so take it as you will, but it seems to be gaining traction. Maybe firms in a buyers market would just rather buy t-10 students than t-30 students with a higher class rank.

I hope my ramblings were helpful.

I found this to be VERY untrue. If anything, it became readily apparent to me this recruiting season that many firms much rather have a top of the class top 50 student than a below mean UVA one.

My personal feeling on this OP is that, no, sticker at UVA for working in NYC or DC is not a good idea. I might even say that it's a bad idea. But a lot of that depends on one's options. If you can get a job paying 50K+ in this economy with just your undergrad degree (which is, as someone mentioned earlier, extremely difficult--assuming you go to an average undergrad--i.e not Duke or something).

Realize that if you go to UVA and don't pull a 3.4 GPA (top 1/3) things are going to be very dicey in terms of getting a firm job in DC or NYC. If you get below a 3.3 I would go so far as to say that you should expect not to get a firm job in NYC or DC. If you are willing to look at other markets where you have very strong ties to, the calculus might change. But understand that NYC and DC firms are mostly factories that look at school prestige, GPA/class rank, and to a lesser extent WE. They really don't flex with those requirements, and you'll be going in missing one of the 3, with no way to change it (lack of WE). Firms have a very bureaucratic hiring process. If you end up bottom 1/3 I would essentially rule out a DC firm job, and your chances of a NYC one are very close to 5 percent or worse. I know many many people without jobs at all, and many more with out firm jobs. Good luck OP. See what kind of money you can get from a school like Vanderbilt or Fordham.

Thanks for your input. I dont understand how you can say chances are low of getting a job in the NYC/DC area. According to their profile on TLS they place 75% of their students in the South/Mid Atlantic regions...

[BruceWayne]

I think it is. Remember to keep in mind LRAP and IBR. Cost of living in C-ville is cheap too, so that's a plus.

I think that hiring has picked up this year, but picked up disproportionately so that for every extra person from a school ranked 30-80 a firm hires there are a dozen T-10 people the firm is willing to hire. That sentence makes little sense, but the bottom line is that the gap between the haves and haves notes seems to be widening. The way I know this is through speculation and anecdotes, so take it as you will, but it seems to be gaining traction. Maybe firms in a buyers market would just rather buy t-10 students than t-30 students with a higher class rank.

I hope my ramblings were helpful.

I found this to be VERY untrue. If anything, it became readily apparent to me this recruiting season that many firms much rather have a top of the class top 50 student than a below mean UVA one.

My personal feeling on this OP is that, no, sticker at UVA for working in NYC or DC is not a good idea. I might even say that it's a bad idea. But a lot of that depends on one's options. If you can get a job paying 50K+ in this economy with just your undergrad degree (which is, as someone mentioned earlier, extremely difficult--assuming you go to an average undergrad--i.e not Duke or something).

Realize that if you go to UVA and don't pull a 3.4 GPA (top 1/3) things are going to be very dicey in terms of getting a firm job in DC or NYC. If you get below a 3.3 I would go so far as to say that you should expect not to get a firm job in NYC or DC. If you are willing to look at other markets where you have very strong ties to, the calculus might change. But understand that NYC and DC firms are mostly factories that look at school prestige, GPA/class rank, and to a lesser extent WE. They really don't flex with those requirements, and you'll be going in missing one of the 3, with no way to change it (lack of WE). Firms have a very bureaucratic hiring process. If you end up bottom 1/3 I would essentially rule out a DC firm job, and your chances of a NYC one are very close to 5 percent or worse. I know many many people without jobs at all, and many more with out firm jobs. Good luck OP. See what kind of money you can get from a school like Vanderbilt or Fordham.

Thanks for your input. I dont understand how you can say chances are low of getting a job in the NYC/DC area. According to their profile on TLS they place 75% of their students in the South/Mid Atlantic regions...

No, according to their numbers they place that percentage of their students who get firm jobs into firms in NYC/DC (and for the record, that's exactly what the profile says). I assure you that 75 percent of UVA 3L's do not have a firm job in NYC/DC; hell 75 percent of Harvard 3Ls probably don't have a firm job in NYC or DC. Although I'm sure that's possible.

[berkeleykel06]

OP, I was in a very similar position as you. ~Same numbers, econ major, wanted DC/NYC, took the LSAT twice, went to UVA at sticker. I will be with a great NYC firm next summer, so things worked out for me. However, if I had to do it all over again, there is no way in hell I would go to UVA at sticker. I have friends who struck out and I know the feeling of waiting post-CB when you're not sure you're going to get a job and you're staring at a massive debt load. You can get a nice job with that gpa with an econ degree. I would work a couple of years, study until you could take an LSAT in your sleep, and then take it a third time. There is no reason why you should go to any law school outside of HYS, let alone the T6.

I would also advise against taking a lower ranked school with a scholly because the drop in rankings to get a large scholly with your numbers would cause an even larger drop in your ability to secure biglaw. For me the issue is one of going to a T10 or not going at all.

[JamMasterJ]

yes

[dixiecupdrinking]

OP, I was in a very similar position as you. ~Same numbers, econ major, wanted DC/NYC, took the LSAT twice, went to UVA at sticker. I will be with a great NYC firm next summer, so things worked out for me. However, if I had to do it all over again, there is no way in hell I would go to UVA at sticker. I have friends who struck out and I know the feeling of waiting post-CB when you're not sure you're going to get a job and you're staring at a massive debt load. You can get a nice job with that gpa with an econ degree. I would work a couple of years, study until you could take an LSAT in your sleep, and then take it a third time. There is no reason why you should go to any law school outside of HYS, let alone the T6.

I would also advise against taking a lower ranked school with a scholly because the drop in rankings to get a large scholly with your numbers would cause an even larger drop in your ability to secure biglaw. For me the issue is one of going to a T10 or not going at all.

Cosigned.

I really do not understand the aversion to taking time off. There is no downside to working for a year or two. It will make you much more marketable to law firms and will give you more perspective on 1L year. It may seem exciting to go to a highly-regarded law school right now, but the sheen will wear off by November of your first semester and you will regret rushing into it. If you are practicing in the 170s, you really owe it to yourself to get a score in the 170s.

[kingjones59]

OP, I was in a very similar position as you. ~Same numbers, econ major, wanted DC/NYC, took the LSAT twice, went to UVA at sticker. I will be with a great NYC firm next summer, so things worked out for me. However, if I had to do it all over again, there is no way in hell I would go to UVA at sticker. I have friends who struck out and I know the feeling of waiting post-CB when you're not sure you're going to get a job and you're staring at a massive debt load. You can get a nice job with that gpa with an econ degree. I would work a couple of years, study until you could take an LSAT in your sleep, and then take it a third time. There is no reason why you should go to any law school outside of HYS, let alone the T6.

I would also advise against taking a lower ranked school with a scholly because the drop in rankings to get a large scholly with your numbers would cause an even larger drop in your ability to secure biglaw. For me the issue is one of going to a T10 or not going at all.

Cosigned.

I really do not understand the aversion to taking time off. There is no downside to working for a year or two. It will make you much more marketable to law firms and will give you more perspective on 1L year. It may seem exciting to go to a highly-regarded law school right now, but the sheen will wear off by November of your first semester and you will regret rushing into it. If you are practicing in the 170s, you really owe it to yourself to get a score in the 170s.

I understand what you are saying, and I keep hearing "retake the LSAT retake the LSAT", but I was at the point where I was PT'ing a low 170s and feeling really confident, but the smallest thing on test day can screw it up. So if I take it again that means another three months of studying and neglecting school, family social life etc to roll the dice again and hope LSAC doesnt throw me a curveball and screw me up again. And what if they do? After what happened in October it is hard for me to fathom the 4+ months of studying I put in just for October, only to do minimally, if at all, better because of the smallest thing. I know I am asking for all of your opinions, but the only opinion I truly want to here is if my goal is to practice BigLaw in NYC or DC, is UVA worth the sticker price? It goes without saying that more possibilities open up if I retake and do better on the LSAT, as this is the case for everyone. But right now I am really concerned with if UVA can give me a reasonable opportunity to reach my goal

[5ky]

Get a job with your econ degree, you'll be happier.

[kingjones59]

Get a job with your econ degree, you'll be happier.

And you would know this how? My econ degree was just a stepping stone to law school. I like econ, but am more interested in law.

I guess it is my fault for putting this on here. I was hoping to spur discussion on how good of a school UVA is in terms of potential biglaw prospects. But I guess the only thing people care about on here are the never-fails advice to "retake the lsat" and the classic "dont go to law school youll regret it". Funny, because I know a lot of lawyers and they are all very well off and happy.

[Blessedassurance]

Funny, because I know a lot of lawyers and they are all very well off and happy.

Ha.

[showNprove]

I think it is. Remember to keep in mind LRAP and IBR. Cost of living in C-ville is cheap too, so that's a plus.

I think that hiring has picked up this year, but picked up disproportionately so that for every extra person from a school ranked 30-80 a firm hires there are a dozen T-10 people the firm is willing to hire. That sentence makes little sense, but the bottom line is that the gap between the haves and haves notes seems to be widening. The way I know this is through speculation and anecdotes, so take it as you will, but it seems to be gaining traction. Maybe firms in a buyers market would just rather buy t-10 students than t-30 students with a higher class rank.

I hope my ramblings were helpful.

I found this to be VERY untrue. If anything, it became readily apparent to me this recruiting season that many firms much rather have a top of the class top 50 student than a below mean UVA one.

My personal feeling on this OP is that, no, sticker at UVA for working in NYC or DC is not a good idea. I might even say that it's a bad idea. But a lot of that depends on one's options. If you can get a job paying 50K+ in this economy with just your undergrad degree (which is, as someone mentioned earlier, extremely difficult--assuming you go to an average undergrad--i.e not Duke or something).

Realize that if you go to UVA and don't pull a 3.4 GPA (top 1/3) things are going to be very dicey in terms of getting a firm job in DC or NYC. If you get below a 3.3 I would go so far as to say that you should expect not to get a firm job in NYC or DC. If you are willing to look at other markets where you have very strong ties to, the calculus might change. But understand that NYC and DC firms are mostly factories that look at school prestige, GPA/class rank, and to a lesser extent WE. They really don't flex with those requirements, and you'll be going in missing one of the 3, with no way to change it (lack of WE). Firms have a very bureaucratic hiring process. If you end up bottom 1/3 I would essentially rule out a DC firm job, and your chances of a NYC one are very close to 5 percent or worse. I know many many people without jobs at all, and many more with out firm jobs. Good luck OP. See what kind of money you can get from a school like Vanderbilt or Fordham.

I can't comment on your particular experience, but in no way do U.Va. students need a 3.4 to get a DC or NYC firm job. Maybe certain students, but not generally.

[shoeshine]

Don't do it.

[5ky]

Get a job with your econ degree, you'll be happier.

And you would know this how? My econ degree was just a stepping stone to law school. I like econ, but am more interested in law.

Because I majored in Econ and went to UVA for law school.

[rayiner]

OP, I was in a very similar position as you. ~Same numbers, econ major, wanted DC/NYC, took the LSAT twice, went to UVA at sticker. I will be with a great NYC firm next summer, so things worked out for me. However, if I had to do it all over again, there is no way in hell I would go to UVA at sticker. I have friends who struck out and I know the feeling of waiting post-CB when you're not sure you're going to get a job and you're staring at a massive debt load. You can get a nice job with that gpa with an econ degree. I would work a couple of years, study until you could take an LSAT in your sleep, and then take it a third time. There is no reason why you should go to any law school outside of HYS, let alone the T6.

I would also advise against taking a lower ranked school with a scholly because the drop in rankings to get a large scholly with your numbers would cause an even larger drop in your ability to secure biglaw. For me the issue is one of going to a T10 or not going at all.

+1.

I went to a T14 at sticker. It turned out great for me, but it was a big risk. Probably at least a third of my classmates have nothing lined up for next summer. Maybe about half have a post-graduation offer at a big law firm.

I would make the same decision again, but I had a shitty UGPA and could not get HYS regardless of my GPA. You, OP, with a 3.95 should definitely sit out a couple of years and try to get your LSAT above 173 so you can go to HYS. It would be a huge win for your career. Even if you just end up at UVA at sticker again, you'd still have a couple of years of solid WE to point to, which in my experience was a big help at OCI.

[BruceWayne]

I can't comment on your particular experience, but in no way do U.Va. students need a 3.4 to get a DC or NYC firm job. Maybe certain students, but not generally.

For it to be likely they do. Obviously it's not an automatic cut off.

Get a job with your econ degree, you'll be happier.

One thing that's really funny about law students is how many of us think we are the only career field hurting right now. It is extraordinarily difficult to get a non retail, non food services, non 100 percent commission job straight out of undergrad. Even more so if you are looking for a salary above 30K.

[rayiner]

OP, I was in a very similar position as you. ~Same numbers, econ major, wanted DC/NYC, took the LSAT twice, went to UVA at sticker. I will be with a great NYC firm next summer, so things worked out for me. However, if I had to do it all over again, there is no way in hell I would go to UVA at sticker. I have friends who struck out and I know the feeling of waiting post-CB when you're not sure you're going to get a job and you're staring at a massive debt load. You can get a nice job with that gpa with an econ degree. I would work a couple of years, study until you could take an LSAT in your sleep, and then take it a third time. There is no reason why you should go to any law school outside of HYS, let alone the T6.

I would also advise against taking a lower ranked school with a scholly because the drop in rankings to get a large scholly with your numbers would cause an even larger drop in your ability to secure biglaw. For me the issue is one of going to a T10 or not going at all.

Cosigned.

I really do not understand the aversion to taking time off. There is no downside to working for a year or two. It will make you much more marketable to law firms and will give you more perspective on 1L year. It may seem exciting to go to a highly-regarded law school right now, but the sheen will wear off by November of your first semester and you will regret rushing into it. If you are practicing in the 170s, you really owe it to yourself to get a score in the 170s.

I understand what you are saying, and I keep hearing "retake the LSAT retake the LSAT", but I was at the point where I was PT'ing a low 170s and feeling really confident, but the smallest thing on test day can screw it up. So if I take it again that means another three months of studying and neglecting school, family social life etc to roll the dice again and hope LSAC doesnt throw me a curveball and screw me up again. And what if they do? After what happened in October it is hard for me to fathom the 4+ months of studying I put in just for October, only to do minimally, if at all, better because of the smallest thing. I know I am asking for all of your opinions, but the only opinion I truly want to here is if my goal is to practice BigLaw in NYC or DC, is UVA worth the sticker price? It goes without saying that more possibilities open up if I retake and do better on the LSAT, as this is the case for everyone. But right now I am really concerned with if UVA can give me a reasonable opportunity to reach my goal

You know what sucks more than that? How interminably long 1L can be when grades actually matter. How you spend 3-6 months completely dead to the world during 2L fall looking for a job without HYS on your resume. Having tons of friends without jobs during 3L year, even if you got lucky and found one yourself.

[Curious1]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

[5ky]

I can't comment on your particular experience, but in no way do U.Va. students need a 3.4 to get a DC or NYC firm job. Maybe certain students, but not generally.

For it to be likely they do. Obviously it's not an automatic cut off.

Get a job with your econ degree, you'll be happier.

One thing that's really funny about law students is how many of us think we are the only career field hurting right now. It is extraordinarily difficult to get a non retail, non food services, non 100 percent commission job straight out of undergrad. Even more so if you are looking for a salary above 30K.

I'm basing my opinion off of his/her statement that he/she could probably get a full-time position with the play where they interned. That seems like a fine option to me. But yes, in lieu of that I readily concede that getting a job is still very difficult in other fields, though I will say that far more than 1/3 of the students from econ/business at my UG have "good" jobs in business or consulting, where good is defined as 40-60k a year with manageable hours.