Wanted: enthusiastic, motivated student body Forum

[grace_ashley]

Hello TLS,

Here's what's up. In a nutshell, after two years of attending a small, private liberal arts college, I am ridiculously unchallenged and sick of apathetic, whining undergrads, grade inflation, and general BS. I want to finish my undergraduate degree at this college, then go on to a different grad school or law school. I want to experience learning at a much faster, more competitive pace and attend a school where the students are enthusiastic (and this is the rule, not the exception).

My question is, does a law school like this even exist outside of maybe Harvard and Yale? I've heard Yale is "special" and "like magic" and so on. But the chances of getting in are so slim. Can someone recommend other law schools they've visited where the community is vibrant, students are proud to attend, and slackers actually fail out instead of getting their grades curved?

I realize this is a pretty general question, but I'd appreciate any info I can get. Sorry if I've posted in the wrong area, and sorry if it's been done a million times! Thanks TLS!

~Grace Ashley

P.S. If anyone says anything along the lines of, "I think you should not go to law school, you aren't serious/meant for this, go for a master's, find some other forum, blah blah" I will not listen. Just answer my question. Thanks.

[TheFactor]

Good luck finding a law school where the majority of students are this douchey.

[phillipjg]

Law schools and graduate schools in general will eliminate some of those people. It is a professional degree.

It sounds like you want a school people will perceive as more competitive, and most people on this forum would want the opposite.

I suspect that the higher-ranked schools (who have higher-performing students on average) will be more in line with what you're looking for, and this fact probably doesn't seem that helpful to you.

[Holly Golightly]

Wow. Please don't go to Northwestern.

[TheFactor]

Wow. Please don't go to Northwestern.

or Duke

[vanwinkle]

Wow. Really?

First of all, "getting grades curved" can be the equivalent of failing out in law school. The job search begins before you start second-year classes, and people who had the lowest GPAs find themselves not finding work and wondering whether to stay. But in truth it's worse than that, because these days, this happens to half the class or more at most schools. Even at the T14 you've got to do rather well to have strong odds of getting a job offer by the time you graduate.

Aside from that, there's nothing "magic" about what you seek. In the entire T14 the schools are able to load up their classes with proven, competitive people. Nearly all were high academic achievers in UG, and many were afterward. A lot excelled in both; these days you see a lot of law students who both were academically brilliant and had great post-UG WE.

I transferred from lower T14 to HLS. The difference in student body potential, in pride in their school, and in a vibrant community was not great at all. In fact, I'm not sure there really was one. There are so many brilliant people trying to go to law school these days that if you replaced the HLS class with the T14 class I bet it'd take you a long time to notice a difference.

If you want the magic of learning new things at a fast, competitive pace, go get a job. You'll learn a lot of things very quickly that no school will teach you, and it's incredibly competitive because you can be immediately replaced if you don't keep up. The skills and experience you get from that trumps anything about UG, which is one big reason the top law schools are loading up on WE. Over 75% of this fall's entering class at HLS will have at least one year of WE, from what I understand. 50% will have two or more years.

And they'll all have an advantage over you, unless you also get WE and learn what a challenge real work is too. You'll be the one getting curved out of a job, from the sound of it.

[bk1]

Most law schools don't fail their kids out. Try Cooley, I hear they fail a lot of people out.

[jmjones]

Wow. Please don't go to Northwestern.

or Duke

I think the OP is serious (ambiguous use of the term)

[yngblkgifted]

In law school, competition is a bad thing but you will find plenty of it. Hope that helps.

[downing]

Hello TLS,

Here's what's up. In a nutshell, after two years of attending a small, private liberal arts college, I am ridiculously unchallenged and sick of apathetic, whining undergrads, grade inflation, and general BS. I want to finish my undergraduate degree at this college, then go on to a different grad school or law school. I want to experience learning at a much faster, more competitive pace and attend a school where the students are enthusiastic (and this is the rule, not the exception).

My question is, does a law school like this even exist outside of maybe Harvard and Yale? I've heard Yale is "special" and "like magic" and so on. But the chances of getting in are so slim. Can someone recommend other law schools they've visited where the community is vibrant, students are proud to attend, and slackers actually fail out instead of getting their grades curved?

I realize this is a pretty general question, but I'd appreciate any info I can get. Sorry if I've posted in the wrong area, and sorry if it's been done a million times! Thanks TLS!

~Grace Ashley

P.S. If anyone says anything along the lines of, "I think you should not go to law school, you aren't serious/meant for this, go for a master's, find some other forum, blah blah" I will not listen. Just answer my question. Thanks.

Grace Ashley - may I call you Grace? (or would you prefer Ashley?) - you are on the right track, and I commend your strategic forethought and consideration of law school as a means to transcend the rigor-less abyss of so many undergraduate institutions. There are few other places outside of law school where you can expect to be immersed in intellectually vibrant climates which reward academic merit and punish academic wickedness.
--ImageRemoved--

The above personality is a concrete example of what to expect out of a typical elite law school's student body: an energetic go-getter with a penchant for writing and publishing prolifically while maintaining the high standards expected by any given law school's faculty. A gifted and humble student who, regardless, manages to fit plenty of healthy good times into his tightly packed schedule of demanding legal courses. If this isn't a poster child for law school, who is?

That being said, good luck in finding a school that suits your individual preferences!

[Kilpatrick]

Hello TLS,

Here's what's up. In a nutshell, after two years of attending a small, private liberal arts college, I am ridiculously unchallenged and sick of apathetic, whining undergrads, grade inflation, and general BS. I want to finish my undergraduate degree at this college, then go on to a different grad school or law school. I want to experience learning at a much faster, more competitive pace and attend a school where the students are enthusiastic (and this is the rule, not the exception).

My question is, does a law school like this even exist outside of maybe Harvard and Yale? I've heard Yale is "special" and "like magic" and so on. But the chances of getting in are so slim. Can someone recommend other law schools they've visited where the community is vibrant, students are proud to attend, and slackers actually fail out instead of getting their grades curved?

I realize this is a pretty general question, but I'd appreciate any info I can get. Sorry if I've posted in the wrong area, and sorry if it's been done a million times! Thanks TLS!

~Grace Ashley

P.S. If anyone says anything along the lines of, "I think you should not go to law school, you aren't serious/meant for this, go for a master's, find some other forum, blah blah" I will not listen. Just answer my question. Thanks.

No sane person is proud to attend the kind of law school that fails out their students.

[WSJ_Law]

Trollololol.

OP is gigantic flame. If you want a school where slackers are failed out try that TTT in Florida or Cooley where you will be forced to be top 2% to even get a job. GL HTH and killself

[shoeshine]

You are really confused about law school grading and the academic atmosphere at law schools in general.

Also, you sound like a douche.

[Bildungsroman]

If you want to go where they fail people out then you're not going to be happy at law school or grad school.

PS don't go to law school.

[OutCold]

The only thing you should be taking into account when picking a law school is what your employment prospects will look like upon graduation.

[ndirish2010]

Can we lock this thread?

[downing]

Can we lock this thread?

Why? This is a fun thread and it gave me a reason to use Tucker Max's name?

[firemed]

While all your law school classmates will be hard workers most of them are sarcastic, and many are bitter.

Good luck finding any school, whether graduate, undergraduate, professional, etc. that isn't going to have a large number of unenthusiastic people. Even medical schools where people are one of a very select few and worked for years to get in will have people who realized they made a mistake, or people who just want to graduate and make the $$$ already.


Also, it is very advisable for you to research law schools extensively so you understand what you are getting into. The market right now is awful.

[grace_ashley]

What kind of school is it where no one is allowed to fail out, no matter how badly they perform?? Trust me... NO ONE wants to be in that school! I think that's why college has become the new high school as America's educational standards just fall and fall... but that's an issue for another discussion, I guess.

Sorry for sounding arrogant... not what I meant... I am so tired of being constantly surrounded by people who don't give a flip, you know? It's so demoralizing (and makes me grumpy, as everyone has noticed). I just want a school where I am not one of the only ones in the library! You learn so much more when the people around you are interested in what they're doing! How can you learn much if you're not surrounded by people who are smarter than you? Also, everyone knows it's hard to stay motivated without a little competition. It can be a friendly, co-operative, sportsmanlike thing. That's what I meant by competitive, not the cut-your-throat kind which I've never experienced, probably will, but certainly don't want to. Sorry you all haven't had experience with that kind of competition.

Getting a job is probably what I'll do eventually, and I hope to get good at what I do. (Thanks for the "encouragement" there... lol.) But acadmic excellence and excelling in a career are two totally different things. You can be terrible at one and awesome at the other. But before I get a job, I'd like to get a really good education.

The reason I've added that P.S. in the original post was because I've seen people on here get razed to the ground and talked out of law school for no good reason besides just snarkiness.

So back to the original question - are Duke's people actually that unmotivated? : )

[shoeshine]

[grace_ashley]

I'm not into elite, either... if there's an awesome school out there without a big name, I'd love to hear about it.

[sunynp]

What kind of school is it where no one is allowed to fail out, no matter how badly they perform?? Trust me... NO ONE wants to be in that school! I think that's why college has become the new high school as America's educational standards just fall and fall... but that's an issue for another discussion, I guess.

Sorry for sounding arrogant... not what I meant... I am so tired of being constantly surrounded by people who don't give a flip, you know? It's so demoralizing (and makes me grumpy, as everyone has noticed). I just want a school where I am not one of the only ones in the library! You learn so much more when the people around you are interested in what they're doing! How can you learn much if you're not surrounded by people who are smarter than you? Also, everyone knows it's hard to stay motivated without a little competition. It can be a friendly, co-operative, sportsmanlike thing. That's what I meant by competitive, not the cut-your-throat kind which I've never experienced, probably will, but certainly don't want to. Sorry you all haven't had experience with that kind of competition.

Getting a job is probably what I'll do eventually, and I hope to get good at what I do. (Thanks for the "encouragement" there... lol.) But acadmic excellence and excelling in a career are two totally different things. You can be terrible at one and awesome at the other. But before I get a job, I'd like to get a really good education.

The reason I've added that P.S. in the original post was because I've seen people on here get razed to the ground and talked out of law school for no good reason besides just snarkiness.

So back to the original question - are Duke's people actually that unmotivated? : )

Why don't you transfer to another UG school if you are unhappy?

You are so naive about law school that I don't even know where to begin with explaining it to you. Here is one thing: competition at law school is intense because many people have 6 figures of debt and a very limited shot getting at a job that will pay that back. I can guarantee that in law school you will not be the only one in the library.

This post helps me understand why so many people go to law school thinking the grading is based on the same policies as undergrad.

[Rock-N-Roll]

OP is a flame.

But I think minus all the OP's rhetoric, it is an interesting question: Is there a difference between one law school's student body and another's when school admissions rely so heavily on LSAT and GPA above everything else? VW has an interesting perspective as he transferred from one top school to another.

[Transferthrowaway]

*OP has 3.3 GPA. Will score 160 on the LSAT. Starts looking for DAT RIGOR now*

[bhan87]

Pretty clearly students at schools like CLS, NYU, Chicago, etc. are not motivated because they don't flunk out... OP your best bet is to apply to schools like Cooley, Whittier, and other similar schools because they actually DO flunk out the bottom of the class. Ignore all the bantor about reputation, employment chances, and indebtness... the ONLY thing that matters is whether students can actually flunk out!!

No, in all seriousness, vanwinkle's point seems pretty spot on. The students that get accepted to the top schools are already motivated, so they don't need the looming threat of getting kicked out to take their studies seriously (economic reality and personal drive take care of that).