Indiana vs. Notre Dame Forum

[jrthor10]

Can anyone speak to the employment prospects at either of these Indiana schools, specifically in bigger markets? IU seems to be ranked higher now, but I would imagine that Notre Dame's stature in general is still helpful? Any thoughts are appreciated.

[ndirish2010]

Take this FWIW, I'm a rising 2L at NDLS:

These schools aren't in the same tier. IU is not really a T25, it is a solid regional school, and if you're looking to work in Indianapolis then you should consider it if it is cheap/free. NDLS can get you to Indianapolis (though there are far more alumni of IU-B and IU-I in Indy than NDLS), but it can also get you to Chicago and several other midwest markets. It is pretty much a step above IU. IU has moved up in the ranking by buying high LSATs with 120K scholarships- not to say this is bad, just to say that it is not a true T25.

[Chippy]

As far as I know, Notre Dame is Emory north (very expensive, lack of a natural market). Chicago isn't hiring, and when they are, they are going T14 (Chicago, Northwestern, etc).

If you want Chicago, I would retake.

[ndirish2010]

As far as I know, Notre Dame is Emory north (very expensive, lack of a natural market). Chicago isn't hiring, and when they are, they are going T14 (Chicago, Northwestern, etc).

If you want Chicago, I would retake.

LOL at Emory north. You shouldn't go to either of these schools without a substantial scholarship, but some of your post is ridiculous. The top 15-20% of the midwest T25s (not IU) are still heading to Chicago for the most part.

[WSJ_Law]

IU-B is propped up in USNWR much like QE is propping up the S&P500. It's a TTT in T25 clothing (tribute to DF).

Not a joke either; look at their placement vs. their "peers"..NDLS/BC/BU kick this schools face into the curb. NDLS>LR>2LSA>???>$$$$

EDIT: For rudeness

[RMstratosphere]

Hoosier here. Notre Dame's placement, especially in large markets, is much better than IU-B's. I also imagine that their alumni base is more loyal, more national, and larger. Though, as has been pointed out, both schools lack natural markets. Indianapolis barely counts.

I'm not sure how to respond to the "TTT" comments and I don't want to hijack this thread into a "IU is for herp derps, duh" discussion. All I'll say is that the USNWR criteria are the same for everyone. IU has offered applicants with strong entrance statistics large merit scholarships and attracted a very strong student body. IU is and has been a T-25. Nobody more than current students like myself wish that our employment statistics reflected that fact.

[WSJ_Law]

I apologize for the TTT comments clearly its not a TTT. IU-B is a good regional school but nothing more, as we both agree. For these reasons, I am just slightly irked by the fact that it receives T25 recognition when it places more like T40/T50. It was particularly upsetting to learn that they achieved their status by making it rain $120k on anyone with 3.4/164+ for the last few cycles. I just hope for IU-B students that they actually attain T25-calibre placement before they run out of money from that donor, because these artificial "stimulus packages" are not sustainable. Their ranking will drop if their numbers stay the same and they can't offer the preposterously large scholarships of today.

Admittedly, its far from a TTT in decline. But it very well may decline.

[JamMasterJ]

I apologize for the TTT comments clearly its not a TTT. IU-B is a good regional school but nothing more, as we both agree. For these reasons, I am just slightly irked by the fact that it receives T25 recognition when it places more like T40/T50. It was particularly upsetting to learn that they achieved their status by making it rain $120k on anyone with 3.4/164+ for the last few cycles. I just hope for IU-B students that they actually attain T25-calibre placement before they run out of money from that donor, because these artificial "stimulus packages" are not sustainable. Their ranking will drop if their numbers stay the same and they can't offer the preposterously large scholarships of today.

Admittedly, its far from a TTT in decline. But it very well may decline.

That money isn't running out anytime soon. I've even heard that the interest on the investment is what's paying the scholarships.
However, to agree with ND2010 for the first time in a while , NDLS is a clear step above IU-B. ND has much greater strength outside of Indiana, and even has a little bit of a national reach. IU may buy it's weigh up there by recruiting more talented students and professors, but they haven't yet, and it will take some time.

[WSJ_Law]

Buying students is kind of a TTT move though IMO. But who am I to judge as long as stips are reasonable and j0rbs are decent.

[flexityflex86]

Hoosier here. Notre Dame's placement, especially in large markets, is much better than IU-B's. I also imagine that their alumni base is more loyal, more national, and larger. Though, as has been pointed out, both schools lack natural markets. Indianapolis barely counts.

I'm not sure how to respond to the "TTT" comments and I don't want to hijack this thread into a "IU is for herp derps, duh" discussion. All I'll say is that the USNWR criteria are the same for everyone. IU has offered applicants with strong entrance statistics large merit scholarships and attracted a very strong student body. IU is and has been a T-25. Nobody more than current students like myself wish that our employment statistics reflected that fact.

wouldn't this hurt the students? numbers are at least somewhat a predictor of success, and because IU: B has students with numbers much higher than the eventual employment stats will indicate that students are competing with one another, and receiving a low class rank from a school employers don't respect?

[ndirish2010]

I apologize for the TTT comments clearly its not a TTT. IU-B is a good regional school but nothing more, as we both agree. For these reasons, I am just slightly irked by the fact that it receives T25 recognition when it places more like T40/T50. It was particularly upsetting to learn that they achieved their status by making it rain $120k on anyone with 3.4/164+ for the last few cycles. I just hope for IU-B students that they actually attain T25-calibre placement before they run out of money from that donor, because these artificial "stimulus packages" are not sustainable. Their ranking will drop if their numbers stay the same and they can't offer the preposterously large scholarships of today.

Admittedly, its far from a TTT in decline. But it very well may decline.

That money isn't running out anytime soon. I've even heard that the interest on the investment is what's paying the scholarships.
However, to agree with ND2010 for the first time in a while , NDLS is a clear step above IU-B. ND has much greater strength outside of Indiana, and even has a little bit of a national reach. IU may buy it's weigh up there by recruiting more talented students and professors, but they haven't yet, and it will take some time.

Yeah, from what I've heard, there is a lot more where that came from. I doubt their ranking will fall soon, but their placement probably won't increase a lot. Indy is not a terrible market, but it is fairly saturated with the two IU's already there.

[JamMasterJ]

They would need to create some strong ties and regional reputability in Chigago, Columbus... and some sort of tie to other large markets for this to happen. They're getting the students, and also got a big endowment from Eli Lilly to spend on professors, but they need to work on their reputation.

[RMstratosphere]

I apologize for the TTT comments clearly its not a TTT. IU-B is a good regional school but nothing more, as we both agree. For these reasons, I am just slightly irked by the fact that it receives T25 recognition when it places more like T40/T50. It was particularly upsetting to learn that they achieved their status by making it rain $120k on anyone with 3.4/164+ for the last few cycles. I just hope for IU-B students that they actually attain T25-calibre placement before they run out of money from that donor, because these artificial "stimulus packages" are not sustainable. Their ranking will drop if their numbers stay the same and they can't offer the preposterously large scholarships of today.

Admittedly, its far from a TTT in decline. But it very well may decline.

Apology accepted; thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I understand that people are "irked" by IU's USNWR, especially given the volatility surrounding traditionally well-regarded schools such as George Washington and Emory. But, to say that IU isn't a T-25 or is TTT, does the conversation a disservice. Again, if anyone has a stake in IU being pressured into vastly improving its placement, it's me. An accurate characterization would have to capture both facets though. As you said, IU is a T-25 but places "more like T40/T50," which I think might be being generous. And I take your comment about "stimulus package," that's actually a very insightful characterization.

Don't expect a decline. Next year's LSAT and GPA medians will be 166/3.75 and we're not running out of money. In fact, the school's lasted campaign raised +$90 million. Our Vault ranking has risen every year for the past few and is now at # 14. If that's not good enough to move up in the rankings, we'll at least stay put. Plus, there will probably be a snowball effect to our "reputation" ranking; once you're in the T-25, people start thinking of you as T-25. As long as schools aren't held to account for their employment stats (which IU barely reveals) then we won't decline. Period.

Since I began writing this your latest comment about buying students being "TTT" was posted. I don't understand that attitude at all. In fact, I'd think students would be supportive of institutions offering massive merit scholarships.

[RMstratosphere]

Hoosier here. Notre Dame's placement, especially in large markets, is much better than IU-B's. I also imagine that their alumni base is more loyal, more national, and larger. Though, as has been pointed out, both schools lack natural markets. Indianapolis barely counts.

I'm not sure how to respond to the "TTT" comments and I don't want to hijack this thread into a "IU is for herp derps, duh" discussion. All I'll say is that the USNWR criteria are the same for everyone. IU has offered applicants with strong entrance statistics large merit scholarships and attracted a very strong student body. IU is and has been a T-25. Nobody more than current students like myself wish that our employment statistics reflected that fact.

wouldn't this hurt the students? numbers are at least somewhat a predictor of success, and because IU: B has students with numbers much higher than the eventual employment stats will indicate that students are competing with one another, and receiving a low class rank from a school employers don't respect?

Sure. Competition amongst a talented student body will result in some talented people under-placing their entrance numbers. But entrance numbers alone aren't a barometer for LS success. At any rate, competition doesn't stop most from going to the best school they get into.

Grammar edit.

[WSJ_Law]

Clarification:

I support LSs offering more merit aid, but offering massively more amounts of cash to possibly qualifed (3.4/164 doesn't "deserve" a full ride to a T25) applicants than all your competitors creates situations like this where students and employers see behind the curtain: that this school isn't really different than it was 5 years ago, they just bought better applicants to game USNWR medians and improve their ranking.

I don't think IU-B deserves placement ahead of Emory/W&L/Bama/UGA/UNC/etc just because they are whoring out scholly money...but this is how USNWR works. Which is flawed and silly.

[WSJ_Law]

As long as schools aren't held to account for their employment stats (which IU barely reveals) then we won't decline. Period.

This is the admissions office sleight of hand that I detest. And its not just IUB so no offense.

[RMstratosphere]

Clarification:

I support LSs offering more merit aid, but offering massively more amounts of cash to possibly qualifed (3.4/164 doesn't "deserve" a full ride to a T25) applicants than all your competitors creates situations like this where students and employers see behind the curtain: that this school isn't really different than it was 5 years ago, they just bought better applicants to game USNWR medians and improve their ranking. I don't think IU-B deserves placement ahead of Emory/W&L/Bama/UGA/UNC/etc just because they are whoring out scholly money

I take it you rescind your apology.

Our LSAT/GPA medians don't lie. I'm interested to see examples of 3.4/164 students getting full rides. I hope we can agree that whether these fictional characters "deserve" a scholarship is not something you or I should have much say in. You obviously have a conception of what a "T-25" is and IU doesn't fit. Readjust your world view.

What's different about the school is that the students have increasingly better entrance statistics and the strength of our professors is improving. We have a few new clinics and programs but no new buildings or puppies to rent. I'm not sure what more could be different: the people doing the learning and the people doing the teaching are more talented each year than the last. I certainly hope employers "see behind the curtain," that's a fact worth being proud of.

If you don't think IU deserves its ranking write the USNWR.

[RMstratosphere]

As long as schools aren't held to account for their employment stats (which IU barely reveals) then we won't decline. Period.

This is the admissions office sleight of hand that I detest. And its not just IUB so no offense.

Agreed and agreed. I think that IU is one of the worst abusers of this problem. They don't even report accurate data to students. They bundle multiple year's worth of information (e.g., placement stats for 2003-2009), don't provide detailed information (e.g., last year students were hired by these employers), or current statistics (no data for c/o 2010).

[1984sheepdog]

lots of people offering their own opinions. i've got one to offer that isn't mine: an executive partner in an international firm (a family friend) told me he thinks Notre Dame and IU aren't in the same league (i.e., ND is better), and you will find Notre Dame grads all around the country.

since it's the lawyers who hire, i figure the opinion of one is worth something.

i admit two things: the guy told me this after i got into Notre Dame, and i'll be attending. non-sequiturs, i know this is the opinion of only one person. someone is bound to argue about statistical representation, but let me be the first to mention it.

[RMstratosphere]

lots of people offering their own opinions. i've got one to offer that isn't mine: an executive partner in an international firm (a family friend) told me he thinks Notre Dame and IU aren't in the same league (i.e., ND is better), and you will find Notre Dame grads all around the country.

since it's the lawyers who hire, i figure the opinion of one is worth something.

i admit two things: the guy told me this after i got into Notre Dame, and i'll be attending. non-sequiturs, i know this is the opinion of only one person. someone is bound to argue about statistical representation, but let me be the first to mention it.

No doubt: Notre Dame has better placement statistics and a bigger, more national alumni base. Congrats on your acceptance- it's a great school.

[JamMasterJ]

lots of people offering their own opinions. i've got one to offer that isn't mine: an executive partner in an international firm (a family friend) told me he thinks Notre Dame and IU aren't in the same league (i.e., ND is better), and you will find Notre Dame grads all around the country.

since it's the lawyers who hire, i figure the opinion of one is worth something.

i admit two things: the guy told me this after i got into Notre Dame, and i'll be attending. non-sequiturs, i know this is the opinion of only one person. someone is bound to argue about statistical representation, but let me be the first to mention it.

No, statistics agree with you.

[1984sheepdog]

lots of people offering their own opinions. i've got one to offer that isn't mine: an executive partner in an international firm (a family friend) told me he thinks Notre Dame and IU aren't in the same league (i.e., ND is better), and you will find Notre Dame grads all around the country.

since it's the lawyers who hire, i figure the opinion of one is worth something.

i admit two things: the guy told me this after i got into Notre Dame, and i'll be attending. non-sequiturs, i know this is the opinion of only one person. someone is bound to argue about statistical representation, but let me be the first to mention it.

No doubt: Notre Dame has better placement statistics and a bigger, more national alumni base. Congrats on your acceptance- it's a great school.

why thank you, sir.

[downstream]

ND is by no means some sort of placement panacea. ND would argue that their top market is Chicago but I assure you that Chicago has really become a 3 horse town and will also take the top students from the local schools. ND is now in that local school category, it isn't meriting the attention of NU, UChi and Michigan. It, along with UIUC, has been hit the hardest by ITE. Five years ago, ND and UIUC probably had a nice niche carved for it between the UM/UC/NU's of the world and the IUB's/Loyola/Kent/OSU/Iowa's of the world. I think that has probably evaporated ITE.

No doubt ND has a stronger alumni base and it does significantly better in Article III placement especially at the COA level. The facility is also far nicer but South Bend <<<<< Bloomington.

If you have the stats to get into ND, you are likely to get something from IUB in terms of $$$. Id say IUB > ND if you get a full ride and then anything less than that I would say it depends on where you want to work. If you are from Indiana and want to practice in Indiana, you'd be crazy to go to NDLS over Indiana unless it was sticker for each. ND also has the BIGRUDYLAW thing going for it so that sways people too, for whatever reason.

[RMstratosphere]

ND is by no means some sort of placement panacea. ND would argue that their top market is Chicago but I assure you that Chicago has really become a 3 horse town and will also take the top students from the local schools. ND is now in that local school category, it isn't meriting the attention of NU, UChi and Michigan. It, along with UIUC, has been hit the hardest by ITE. Five years ago, ND and UIUC probably had a nice niche carved for it between the UM/UC/NU's of the world and the IUB's/Loyola/Kent/OSU/Iowa's of the world. I think that has probably evaporated ITE.

No doubt ND has a stronger alumni base and it does significantly better in Article III placement especially at the COA level. The facility is also far nicer but South Bend <<<<< Bloomington.

If you have the stats to get into ND, you are likely to get something from IUB in terms of $$$. Id say IUB > ND if you get a full ride and then anything less than that I would say it depends on where you want to work. If you are from Indiana and want to practice in Indiana, you'd be crazy to go to NDLS over Indiana unless it was sticker for each. ND also has the BIGRUDYLAW thing going for it so that sways people too, for whatever reason.

+1

[Verity]

Clarification:

I support LSs offering more merit aid, but offering massively more amounts of cash to possibly qualifed (3.4/164 doesn't "deserve" a full ride to a T25) applicants than all your competitors creates situations like this where students and employers see behind the curtain: that this school isn't really different than it was 5 years ago, they just bought better applicants to game USNWR medians and improve their ranking.

I don't think IU-B deserves placement ahead of Emory/W&L/Bama/UGA/UNC/etc just because they are whoring out scholly money...but this is how USNWR works. Which is flawed and silly.

This is the dumbest line I've read today.

What's wrong with a school trying to recruit the best possible students? The prime way to do this is to offer merit scholarships - if they have the money, then why not?

Does a school moving into the T25 just irk you in general? If your school moved into the T10, would you be as pissed?