University of Arizona (In-state sticker) Still bad decision? Forum

[Veyron]

Where are you getting all of this wild information? My guess is either 0L, graduated a long time ago, or admissions office shill.

0L interested in "environmental law." He/she wrote on May 02, 2011, on "Program Specific Softs":

Hello,

I am thinking about testing the law school waters and had a question about how relevant certain softs are to law school applications. For example, I am currently an MA student in environmental history that is interested in going into environmental law. I have an article soon to be published in a respectable academic journal and have been on the editorial staff of a prominent academic publication involved with environmental history.

Would these soft factors earn me any points if I applied to a program that seeks to attract students interested in environmental law, such as NYU, or do I stand the same chance as any other applicant with the same LSAT score and GPA?

Thank you so much for your help.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 8#p4363678

Yup, that's me.

Well, I'm sure that anyone with the softs to get into NYU in spite of a bad GPA/LSAT will do fine

I am a UA undergrad, and I live on about $600 a month. Below $550 would be pretty possible, but you would have to cut a lot of costs, including not buying internet, buying cheaper groceries and finding cheaper rent.

Man, I should have gone to U of A.

[LilGuy]

"Man, I should have gone to U of A."

Yeah, that aspect of it is pretty good, although you have to deal with increased electricity costs in the summer. But my roommate and I didn't even turn on the heater during the winter, so I think it makes up for it.

[Veyron]

"Man, I should have gone to U of A."

Yeah, that aspect of it is pretty good, although you have to deal with increased electricity costs in the summer. But my roommate and I didn't even turn on the heater during the winter, so I think it makes up for it.

Still cheaper than Phoenix. Hell of a lot cheaper than Philly. Plus, U of A has really stepped up its game in the attractive female department these last few years.

[aldoleopold]

Absolutely not. It demonstrates the willingness to cultivate an important recruiting site where a lot of potential applicants annually come from. It is not as if the entire graduating class is going to be absorbed by any or all of these firms. That notion is simply ridiculous.

I am simply mocking the idea that you are talking up people's chances at 115k+midlaw when only 7-10 members of the class are going to get those jobs. Also, UA is not realistically going to land biglaw jobs outside of Arizona so most people's chances are going to live and die with just those 7-10 jobs that only the top 10% has a realistic shot at getting. That is called BAD ODDS.

Most ASU/UA students have a negative expected value in going to law school. Did not used to be true and may change one day, but that is the way it is ITE.

Not talking up people's chances. Just keeping them in mind as a possible, but not entirely easy option. This thread attempts to make the point that it is impossible. I am contending that it is improbable, not impossible for all but a handful of students.

[aldoleopold]

This thread is blowing up.

[Glock]

Absolutely not. It demonstrates the willingness to cultivate an important recruiting site where a lot of potential applicants annually come from. It is not as if the entire graduating class is going to be absorbed by any or all of these firms. That notion is simply ridiculous.

I am simply mocking the idea that you are talking up people's chances at 115k+midlaw when only 7-10 members of the class are going to get those jobs. Also, UA is not realistically going to land biglaw jobs outside of Arizona so most people's chances are going to live and die with just those 7-10 jobs that only the top 10% has a realistic shot at getting. That is called BAD ODDS.

Most ASU/UA students have a negative expected value in going to law school. Did not used to be true and may change one day, but that is the way it is ITE.

Not talking up people's chances. Just keeping them in mind as a possible, but not entirely easy option. This thread attempts to make the point that it is impossible. I am contending that it is improbable, not impossible for all but a handful of students.

Nope. Nobody said it was impossible, it is just less than a 10% chance. That means that 90% of ASU/UA students (a huge portion of whom delusionally expect a $115k job) will have no chair when the midlaw/biglaw music stops. That was the number you disputed to start this whole shitstorm.

[aldoleopold]

Absolutely not. It demonstrates the willingness to cultivate an important recruiting site where a lot of potential applicants annually come from. It is not as if the entire graduating class is going to be absorbed by any or all of these firms. That notion is simply ridiculous.

I am simply mocking the idea that you are talking up people's chances at 115k+midlaw when only 7-10 members of the class are going to get those jobs. Also, UA is not realistically going to land biglaw jobs outside of Arizona so most people's chances are going to live and die with just those 7-10 jobs that only the top 10% has a realistic shot at getting. That is called BAD ODDS.

Most ASU/UA students have a negative expected value in going to law school. Did not used to be true and may change one day, but that is the way it is ITE.

Not talking up people's chances. Just keeping them in mind as a possible, but not entirely easy option. This thread attempts to make the point that it is impossible. I am contending that it is improbable, not impossible for all but a handful of students.

Nope. Nobody said it was impossible, it is just less than a 10% chance. That means that 90% of ASU/UA students (a huge portion of whom delusionally expect a $115k job) will have no chair when the midlaw/biglaw music stops. That was the number you disputed to start this whole shitstorm.

I disputed the fact that you cannot calculate the probability of a non-eventuality, not that it would not be difficult simply because he decides to attend the U of A. You are confusing a primary line of reasoning with a secondary proposition.

[scammedhard]

Sorry to interrupt, but the original question was:

First of all I am quite happy with my decision to attend the University of Arizona with in-state tuition. However, I am fully aware that most posters on this site still think this is a terrible decision. I will have to fund my education primarily by taking out loans, although I do have a little savings that will basically cover the cost of living for a year. In-state tuition at Arizona is 26K per year and cost of living is around 12-14k. Is this really that bad of a decision? Thanks

In one line, my answer is: Yes, it's a bad decision because UofA Law represents too much risk and too high of an investment for the likely outcome/reward.

What are your SUCCINCT answers?

[puravidamae]

A lot of good points here. Thanks for all of the replies.

[BeautifulSW]

This was actually one of the better threads I've followed on this site.

I've talked up Arizona for many years; apparently the opportunities are even somewhat better than I had thought. But I have to agree...borrowing $120,000 for a UofA J.D. just doesn't make financial sense. If somehow it could be done with, say, half that debt, then I'd say definitely "Go."

[Veyron]

This was actually one of the better threads I've followed on this site.

I've talked up Arizona for many years; apparently the opportunities are even somewhat better than I had thought. But I have to agree...borrowing $120,000 for a UofA J.D. just doesn't make financial sense. If somehow it could be done with, say, half that debt, then I'd say definitely "Go."

Yes, from what I understand the Arizona market is a bit more developed than NM's, though not as developed as it could be given the size of the metro areas.

[Glock]

I disputed the fact that you cannot calculate the probability of a non-eventuality, not that it would not be difficult simply because he decides to attend the U of A. You are confusing a primary line of reasoning with a secondary proposition.

Fine. You can calculate the probably of something other than a biglaw job of occurring. The probability is of non-A, which is the fact that less than 10% of UofA grads are getting midlaw jobs. Satisfied?

[Glock]

This was actually one of the better threads I've followed on this site.

I've talked up Arizona for many years; apparently the opportunities are even somewhat better than I had thought. But I have to agree...borrowing $120,000 for a UofA J.D. just doesn't make financial sense. If somehow it could be done with, say, half that debt, then I'd say definitely "Go."

I am a big Arizona fan, both the school and the state. Does not justify delusions about expected value of the ASU/UA JD.

[Veyron]

This was actually one of the better threads I've followed on this site.

I've talked up Arizona for many years; apparently the opportunities are even somewhat better than I had thought. But I have to agree...borrowing $120,000 for a UofA J.D. just doesn't make financial sense. If somehow it could be done with, say, half that debt, then I'd say definitely "Go."

I am a big Arizona fan, both the school and the state. Does not justify delusions about expected value of the ASU/UA JD.

True dat and double true.

[aldoleopold]

This was actually one of the better threads I've followed on this site.

I've talked up Arizona for many years; apparently the opportunities are even somewhat better than I had thought. But I have to agree...borrowing $120,000 for a UofA J.D. just doesn't make financial sense. If somehow it could be done with, say, half that debt, then I'd say definitely "Go."

I am a big Arizona fan, both the school and the state. Does not justify delusions about expected value of the ASU/UA JD.

True dat and double true.

Tuition and the cost of living with this student's savings are not going to exceed at the high-end $102,000 and are more likely to fall in the $85,000-90,000 range. With that in mind, a monthly loan payment is anywhere from $1,405.00 a month to $1,211.00 a month, which is pretty manageable even if he/she does land in a quasi-legal or less than lucrative job.

This argument flies in the face of the conventional wisdom on this site, but there are financially-sustainable opportunities outside of large law-firm--which is still a probability, no matter how slim-- whether that be in government, at a corporation, or a small local-firm. He or she will definitely not being living the high-life, but seems to be content being a lawyer. With that being said there is nothing holding him/her back by attending a strong regional school, such as the University of Arizona.

[aldoleopold]

This was actually one of the better threads I've followed on this site.

I've talked up Arizona for many years; apparently the opportunities are even somewhat better than I had thought. But I have to agree...borrowing $120,000 for a UofA J.D. just doesn't make financial sense. If somehow it could be done with, say, half that debt, then I'd say definitely "Go."

Thank you, I will be here all day. Or, at least until my plane boards.

[Glock]

Tuition and the cost of living with this student's savings are not going to exceed at the high-end $102,000 and are more likely to fall in the $85,000-90,000 range. With that in mind, a monthly loan payment is anywhere from $1,405.00 a month to $1,211.00 a month, which is pretty manageable even if he/she does land in a quasi-legal or less than lucrative job.

This argument flies in the face of the conventional wisdom on this site, but there are financially-sustainable opportunities outside of large law-firm--which is still a probability, no matter how slim-- whether that be in government, at a corporation, or a small local-firm. He or she will definitely not being living the high-life, but seems to be content being a lawyer. With that being said there is nothing holding him/her back by attending a strong regional school, such as the University of Arizona.

This site does promote a biglaw or bust attitude when the vast majority of law grads don't even sniff biglaw. For some just getting a JD and being a lawyer is worth the debt and loss of lifetime expected income. Others eventually work their way into a lucrative practice. That is all great. The problem is the people that think an ASU/UA JD is a ticket to riches and that the debt is just the price you have to pay up front. There are tons of these people.

[aldoleopold]

Wow. I wonder how many $115K associates are hired every year in Phoenix?

Between 20 and 30.

The superfluous comma makes this statement ambiguous. Not sure if the poster is saying that there are no Phoenix firms that pay 115K or if, Phoenix firms pay 115K?

You, sir, are an idiot.

Someone above said you would "struggle" to pay back your debt with a $115K salary. I don't know what your definition of struggle is but if he does in fact get $115K (I know, not even close to guaranteed) I don't think paying back the $120K over ten years would be a struggle at all. Look at a take home salary calculator (Harvard has one I think). There would be plenty left over to have a good life. Not a baller lifestyle but comfortable.

Yah, 20k a year in loan payments is no problem in Phx if you get a 115 job - as long as you manage to keep that job.

20K a year in loan payments? For what period of time? It appears that math as well as spelling are things that are of "no concern" to you unless you "submit it to a court."

[Veyron]

Wow. I wonder how many $115K associates are hired every year in Phoenix?

Between 20 and 30.

The superfluous comma makes this statement ambiguous. Not sure if the poster is saying that there are no Phoenix firms that pay 115K or if, Phoenix firms pay 115K?

You, sir, are an idiot.

Someone above said you would "struggle" to pay back your debt with a $115K salary. I don't know what your definition of struggle is but if he does in fact get $115K (I know, not even close to guaranteed) I don't think paying back the $120K over ten years would be a struggle at all. Look at a take home salary calculator (Harvard has one I think). There would be plenty left over to have a good life. Not a baller lifestyle but comfortable.

Yah, 20k a year in loan payments is no problem in Phx if you get a 115 job - as long as you manage to keep that job.

20K a year in loan payments? For what period of time? It appears that math as well as spelling are things that are of "no concern" to you unless you "submit it to a court."

10 years is the normal term that is assumed. Interest rate in the high single digits.

[aldoleopold]

Tuition and the cost of living with this student's savings are not going to exceed at the high-end $102,000 and are more likely to fall in the $85,000-90,000 range. With that in mind, a monthly loan payment is anywhere from $1,405.00 a month to $1,211.00 a month, which is pretty manageable even if he/she does land in a quasi-legal or less than lucrative job.

This argument flies in the face of the conventional wisdom on this site, but there are financially-sustainable opportunities outside of large law-firm--which is still a probability, no matter how slim-- whether that be in government, at a corporation, or a small local-firm. He or she will definitely not being living the high-life, but seems to be content being a lawyer. With that being said there is nothing holding him/her back by attending a strong regional school, such as the University of Arizona.

This site does promote a biglaw or bust attitude when the vast majority of law grads don't even sniff biglaw. For some just getting a JD and being a lawyer is worth the debt and loss of lifetime expected income. Others eventually work their way into a lucrative practice. That is all great. The problem is the people that think an ASU/UA JD is a ticket to riches and that the debt is just the price you have to pay up front. There are tons of these people.

Very well-stated. The key is realistic expectations. I think this student understands that he/she must work very hard to obtain a high-paying occupation unless he/she works very hard, but is more than happy working as a lawyer for a less-than-stellar salary as long as it covers his/her debt and provides a comfortable standard of living. With that being said, the U of A seems like an excellent choice for someone with realistic expectations of working in the region without a biglaw salary, or working very, very hard to achieve that top-earning salary.

But, who's to say that only people attending non-T14 schools are delusional? One can argue that a college or legal-education at any university is incredibly over-priced when you consider the fact that an a/c repair-person (especially in Arizona) can make a significant amount of money while still prudently saving and be in a much better financial situation for his/her lifetime than someone who goes through college and law school.

The question is: Why aren't more people on this site hoping to become a/c repairmen right out of high school? It is much more likely and cost-effective. But, most of the people who frequent this site want to be lawyers, and are more than happy with achieving that goal without the laudits of a biglaw salary or a diploma from a T-14 school.

[aldoleopold]

Wow. I wonder how many $115K associates are hired every year in Phoenix?

Between 20 and 30.

The superfluous comma makes this statement ambiguous. Not sure if the poster is saying that there are no Phoenix firms that pay 115K or if, Phoenix firms pay 115K?

You, sir, are an idiot.

Someone above said you would "struggle" to pay back your debt with a $115K salary. I don't know what your definition of struggle is but if he does in fact get $115K (I know, not even close to guaranteed) I don't think paying back the $120K over ten years would be a struggle at all. Look at a take home salary calculator (Harvard has one I think). There would be plenty left over to have a good life. Not a baller lifestyle but comfortable.

Yah, 20k a year in loan payments is no problem in Phx if you get a 115 job - as long as you manage to keep that job.

20K a year in loan payments? For what period of time? It appears that math as well as spelling are things that are of "no concern" to you unless you "submit it to a court."

10 years is the normal term that is assumed. Interest rate in the high single digits.

Then your numbers are off by a minimum of 5,000.00 a year. This student's loan payments are unlikely to exceed $14,550.00 a year for a ten-year period.

[aldoleopold]

Well, not that this conversation hasn't been stimulating, but it is time for me to depart. So long TLS!

[BeautifulSW]

"The question is: Why aren't more people on this site hoping to become a/c repairmen right out of high school? It is much more likely and cost-effective. But, most of the people who frequent this site want to be lawyers, and are more than happy with achieving that goal without the laudits of a biglaw salary or a diploma from a T-14 school."


I did a number of things before deciding on law school; I spent time in the Navy, worked as a technician at a TV broadcast station, went to sea in the Merchant Marine to name the high points. Every one of those occupations was, in its way, as interesting as being a lawyer and none carried any financial risk. Law school, even for me, DID carry a significant risk; my lost income was at least $75,000 (remember, this was the mid '80s) but between a very low tuition, a tiny grant, and the old GI Bill, I came out owing about $15,000 to Sallie Mae.

Was law school a smart move? For me, yes. My first job paid more than I owed (though you wouldn't believe how small that salary was) and I still believe that it's a good guideline; that your student loan balance shouldn't exceed your first year's salary. The idea of borrowing the money depending on the ability NOT to pay it back frightens me; what if Congress changes its mind? There's not a lot of sympathy out there for lawyers or law students you know. A glance at the Bankruptcy Code should make that point pretty clear. Student loan debtors have fewer rights than those who owe the Mafia.

But stated bluntly: If the guideline is a valid indicator, 90% of law students should not be in law school at all, anywhere. Unfortunately, I conclude that this is true and they shouldn't be.

[Veyron]

"The question is: Why aren't more people on this site hoping to become a/c repairmen right out of high school? It is much more likely and cost-effective. But, most of the people who frequent this site want to be lawyers, and are more than happy with achieving that goal without the laudits of a biglaw salary or a diploma from a T-14 school."


I did a number of things before deciding on law school; I spent time in the Navy, worked as a technician at a TV broadcast station, went to sea in the Merchant Marine to name the high points. Every one of those occupations was, in its way, as interesting as being a lawyer and none carried any financial risk. Law school, even for me, DID carry a significant risk; my lost income was at least $75,000 (remember, this was the mid '80s) but between a very low tuition, a tiny grant, and the old GI Bill, I came out owing about $15,000 to Sallie Mae.

Was law school a smart move? For me, yes. My first job paid more than I owed (though you wouldn't believe how small that salary was) and I still believe that it's a good guideline; that your student loan balance shouldn't exceed your first year's salary. The idea of borrowing the money depending on the ability NOT to pay it back frightens me; what if Congress changes its mind? There's not a lot of sympathy out there for lawyers or law students you know. A glance at the Bankruptcy Code should make that point pretty clear. Student loan debtors have fewer rights than those who owe the Mafia.

But stated bluntly: If the guideline is a valid indicator, 90% of law students should not be in law school at all, anywhere. Unfortunately, I conclude that this is true and they shouldn't be.

Ahhh, to have been a baby boomer.

[BeautifulSW]

It's true! My life-timing could not have been better. So many things I did you couldn't just go out and do anymore due to ever-increasing regulations and restrictions. The world is getting more complex, I'm afraid. But FWIW, I did come out of law school into a fairly fierce unemployment climate. Nothing like TODAY, to be sure, especially for lawyers, but I had to go pretty far afield to find my first job.