Duke ($50K) vs. Michigan for NYC biglaw Forum

[balenciagar]

I was dead set on Duke until I got the email from Dean Z about my possibility on getting off the waitlist. Although it's only a slim possibility, since I've never thought about deciding between the two, I would need some help. Thinking in advance wouldn't hurt I guess?


I want NYC biglaw; if NYC isn't an option, I prefer Chicago over any markets in the South.

Duke
Went to the same undergrad so I know the city, campus, everything. It would help in surviving 1L because I wouldn't have to adjust to new environment. May get stuck to the South though, which I would like to avoid at all circumstances. But what I also heard is that because the class is so small and the school does not have any major market around, there would be less competition. Is this true?

Michigan
Slightly higher ranking. Better alumni network possibly? Also it opens up the Midwest market. It will be at sticker though, so +$50k debt.


Thanks in advance!

[JamMasterJ]

If you don't like the South, you would have to go M

[dabbadon8]

Just chose Duke over Michigan at equal money. Let me know if you want my reasoning.

[Dany]

That's a pretty substantial scholarship difference for what I view as peer schools, so I'd have to say Duke unless Michigan offers you a scholarship.

[protein]

Can you negotiate for $ from Michigan using your Duke offer?

[Grizz]

Duke unless Michigan gives you money.

[fingersxd]

Duke unless Michigan gives you money.

+1. you will only be stuck in the south if you do poorly at duke, but where would you go if you do poorly at michigan? Poor grades = screwed either easy

[cornellbeez]

I go to Michigan and love it, but the schools are similar, so I'd say take the money at Duke if Michigan doesn't match.

When you first take out loans, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but the closer and closer you get to graduation, the scarier it is thinking about paying off all those loans and how many years it's going to take before you can pay them off (20? 30? years).

[quakeroats]

Duke's New York placement is very good.

Here's the number of associates at Vault 10 firms (note average class size):

--ImageRemoved--

The numbers are even more lopsided if you exclude non-NY offices.

[D-hops]

In spite of Quakeroats relentless Duke trolling, Duke, here, is probably the right answer because of money.

[quakeroats]

In spite of Quakeroats relentless Duke trolling, Duke, here, is probably the right answer because of money.

Nearly 2:1 isn't really trolling.

More stats:
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[D-hops]

May not be "stats," but relevant: http://abovethelaw.com/2009/09/atl-douc ... aw-school/

[FlightoftheEarls]

Duke's New York placement is very good.

Here's the number of associates at Vault 10 firms (note average class size):

--ImageRemoved--

The numbers are even more lopsided if you exclude non-NY offices.

Oh sweet Jesus, this again? Do you just, like, wait around for a few months and hope that nobody is going to call you out for posting the same stupid shit you've been ridiculed for every time before? Fair enough - two can play this game.

OP: The people in this thread are right - Michigan isn't worth 50k over Duke for NYC biglaw, and the debt is very real. But Michigan might be worth 50k so you don't have to go to school with people like this:

Almost everyone here sounds young. If you're not sure, here's a quick test:

1. Have you gotten drunk fewer than 3 times a year in the last 10?
2. Can you name 4 composers who wrote only 9 numbered symphonies (bonus points for two more)?
3. Can you name 4 grapes traditionally found in red Bordeaux (bonus points for two more)?
4. Can you name the Marx brothers?
5. Can you disambiguate Metternich and Bismarck?

Do yourself a favor - see if you can't pull yourself some Michigan money now that you're off the waitlist. Just kidding. But seriously. . . .

[Helicio]

Hm, I dunno. I go to Duke undergrad as well (will be a junior next year), and I'm not sure if I'd want to do law school here too.

Don't get me wrong, I like Duke. But I think I would want a different experience.

As other people are saying, though, don't worry about getting stuck in the south. Duke places well in NY and and DC; actually, I think most Law graduates go to the northeast or DC.

PM me if you'd like; I'd be really interested in getting some advice from you about applying to law schools from Duke.

[quakeroats]

Duke's New York placement is very good.

Here's the number of associates at Vault 10 firms (note average class size):

--ImageRemoved--

The numbers are even more lopsided if you exclude non-NY offices.

Oh sweet Jesus, this again? Do you just, like, wait around for a few months and hope that nobody is going to call you out for posting the same stupid shit you've been ridiculed for every time before? Fair enough - two can play this game.

OP: The people in this thread are right - Michigan isn't worth 50k over Duke for NYC biglaw, and the debt is very real. But Michigan might be worth 50k so you don't have to go to school with people like this:

Almost everyone here sounds young. If you're not sure, here's a quick test:

1. Have you gotten drunk fewer than 3 times a year in the last 10?
2. Can you name 4 composers who wrote only 9 numbered symphonies (bonus points for two more)?
3. Can you name 4 grapes traditionally found in red Bordeaux (bonus points for two more)?
4. Can you name the Marx brothers?
5. Can you disambiguate Metternich and Bismarck?

Do yourself a favor - see if you can't pull yourself some Michigan money now that you're off the waitlist. Just kidding. But seriously. . . .

Note the poster's failure to deal with the data. But hey, maybe you should ask a Michigander for some data. You could start with how forthcoming Michigan's been with career data over the years. Their reportedly 70% strike-out rate for last year's OCI would be a good place to start. N.b. I use reportedly because no one outside their career office (which reportedly told everyone in the class to bid on Chicago--a smaller economy that was much less healthy than NY at the time) seems to know the exact figures, while Duke distributes lists of employers for every 2L to students, attendees at ASW, and TLS as the data is always leaked.

[D-hops]

Why would number of V10 associates have anything to do with actual future job placement statistics in New York for two peer schools? Your numbers mean very little, if anything at all.

[quakeroats]

Why would number of V10 associates have anything to do with actual future job placement statistics in New York for two peer schools? Your numbers mean very little, if anything at all.

First, "peer schools" is a conclusion, that in terms of New York placement, at least at the top, isn't right. The data are meaningful if, over time, more grads from one school than another end up at certain firms. I do similar counts at a wider variety of firms, limiting it to just associates in New York and the result was even more lopsided. Unless there's a confounding variable (say Michigan students as a whole leave big law earlier, or pursue smaller firms from the start, or freeze to death on the Michigan tundra) a nearly 2:1 difference in placement is something that should be explained. When taken together with what I mentioned earlier, and all the other problems with placement at Michigan that I've gone through at length in prior posts, why would you chance it?

BTW, our placement stats for the summer are already up. Will we ever get the same data from Michigan?

[D-hops]

Why would number of V10 associates have anything to do with actual future job placement statistics in New York for two peer schools? Your numbers mean very little, if anything at all.

First, "peer schools" is a conclusion, that in terms of New York placement, at least at the top, isn't right. The data are meaningful if, over time, more grads from one school than another end up at certain firms. I do similar counts at a wider variety of firms, limiting it to just associates in New York and the result was even more lopsided. Unless there's a confounding variable (say Michigan students as a whole leave big law earlier, or pursue smaller firms from the start, or freeze to death on the Michigan tundra) a nearly 2:1 difference in placement is something that should be explained. When taken together with what I mentioned earlier, and all the other problems with placement at Michigan that I've gone through at length in prior posts, why would you chance it?

My point is you are making a conclusion that there aren't any confounding variables, of which you have no evidence. That is why your data means nothing.

[quakeroats]

Why would number of V10 associates have anything to do with actual future job placement statistics in New York for two peer schools? Your numbers mean very little, if anything at all.

First, "peer schools" is a conclusion, that in terms of New York placement, at least at the top, isn't right. The data are meaningful if, over time, more grads from one school than another end up at certain firms. I do similar counts at a wider variety of firms, limiting it to just associates in New York and the result was even more lopsided. Unless there's a confounding variable (say Michigan students as a whole leave big law earlier, or pursue smaller firms from the start, or freeze to death on the Michigan tundra) a nearly 2:1 difference in placement is something that should be explained. When taken together with what I mentioned earlier, and all the other problems with placement at Michigan that I've gone through at length in prior posts, why would you chance it?

My point is you are making a conclusion that there aren't any confounding variables, of which you have no evidence. That is why your data means nothing.

Again, the idea that the data mean "nothing" is pretty clearly incorrect. Others have conducted similar surveys (Leiter being the most famous) and there doesn't seem to be a confounding variable that passes the laugh test. However, even if you ignore the data entirely, you haven't dealt with the other problems I've mentioned here and elsewhere.

[paulinaporizkova]

50k is a lot of money, especially when comparing 2 schools that are essentially peers. go to doooook

[D-hops]

Your argument is essentially: correlation = causation unless you prove otherwise. That is retarded, and I have better things to do than respond to it. I don't go to either school. OP should choose Duke because of the money.

[balenciagar]

hey thanks thanks!

[Dany]

hey thanks thanks!

What'd you decide?