Fordham ($45k) vs. Cardozo ($81k) Forum

[nireca]

Just found out today that I was accepted off of Fordham's wait list and I have to submit a second seat deposit to Cardozo by the end of the day.

What do you guys think? Right now COAs are as follows: Fordham $170k, Dozo $133k.

Edit: updated to reflect scholly info

Edit: Fordham COA updated to reflect pops grant and to allow re-votes

[Northeast]

Dozo. 250K+ debt is not good, homie.

[JD2014]

I think the consensus is that Fordham at sticker is very risky. High COA coupled with about a 25% shot at getting a job that can service the debt. Also, I think Fordham is known to be stingy with money, and law schools in general are stingy with students off their waitlist.

Is 81k the total scholarship from Cardozo, or the total COA?

[NYC Law]

I think the consensus is that Fordham at sticker is very risky. High COA coupled with about a 25% shot at getting a job that can service the debt. Also, I think Fordham is known to be stingy with money, and law schools in general are stingy with students off their waitlist.

Is 81k the total scholarship from Cardozo, or the total COA?

Really there's about a 40-50% chance of getting a job that pays $145k coming out of Fordham. Just a 25% chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, but many non NLJ 250 firms in NYC still pay six figures.

[Northeast]

I think the consensus is that Fordham at sticker is very risky. High COA coupled with about a 25% shot at getting a job that can service the debt. Also, I think Fordham is known to be stingy with money, and law schools in general are stingy with students off their waitlist.

Is 81k the total scholarship from Cardozo, or the total COA?

Really there's about a 40-50% chance of getting a job that pays $145k coming out of Fordham. Just a 25% chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, but many non NLJ 250 firms in NYC still pay six figures.

are you high?

[nireca]

I think the consensus is that Fordham at sticker is very risky. High COA coupled with about a 25% shot at getting a job that can service the debt. Also, I think Fordham is known to be stingy with money, and law schools in general are stingy with students off their waitlist.

Is 81k the total scholarship from Cardozo, or the total COA?

total scholarship. total COA is $214 at Fordham and $133 at Dozo, without interest.

[NYC Law]

I think the consensus is that Fordham at sticker is very risky. High COA coupled with about a 25% shot at getting a job that can service the debt. Also, I think Fordham is known to be stingy with money, and law schools in general are stingy with students off their waitlist.

Is 81k the total scholarship from Cardozo, or the total COA?

Really there's about a 40-50% chance of getting a job that pays $145k coming out of Fordham. Just a 25% chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, but many non NLJ 250 firms in NYC still pay six figures.

are you high?

No, just accurate.
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

Feel free to look up these firms on NALP and tell me what ya get:
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P.
Roberts & Holland LLP
Axinn, Veltrop & Harkrider LLP
Friedman Kaplan Seiler & Adelman LLP
FROMMER LAWRENCE & HAUG LLP
Satterlee Stephens Burke & Burke LLP

[MrAnon]

You should ask students from these schools if they are getting these jobs. I know many students going to "small firms" on Long Island from Fordham and Cardozo. If these NLJ250 jobs were so plentiful they would take them.

[JD2014]

I know many students going to "small firms" on Long Island from Fordham and Cardozo. If these NLJ250 jobs were so plentiful they would take them.

According to LST, 9% of Fordham grads are unemployed, 21% aren't reporting their salary, 2% are going back to school, and 25% of those employed in the private sector (78.6% of the class) have a salary unhelpfully described as below $145,000.

It's possible you're both right: A lot of Fordham grads are getting good jobs, and good number are getting screwed. Bimodal and all.

OP, go onto Law School Transparency and pick your poison. This call is probably contingent on risk tolerance.

[Grizz]

I think the consensus is that Fordham at sticker is very risky. High COA coupled with about a 25% shot at getting a job that can service the debt. Also, I think Fordham is known to be stingy with money, and law schools in general are stingy with students off their waitlist.

Is 81k the total scholarship from Cardozo, or the total COA?

Really there's about a 40-50% chance of getting a job that pays $145k coming out of Fordham. Just a 25% chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, but many non NLJ 250 firms in NYC still pay six figures.

are you high?

No, just accurate.
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

Feel free to look up these firms on NALP and tell me what ya get:
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P.
Roberts & Holland LLP
Axinn, Veltrop & Harkrider LLP
Friedman Kaplan Seiler & Adelman LLP
FROMMER LAWRENCE & HAUG LLP
Satterlee Stephens Burke & Burke LLP

Cool 2009 statistics bro

[NYC Law]

No, just accurate.
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

Feel free to look up these firms on NALP and tell me what ya get:
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P.
Roberts & Holland LLP
Axinn, Veltrop & Harkrider LLP
Friedman Kaplan Seiler & Adelman LLP
FROMMER LAWRENCE & HAUG LLP
Satterlee Stephens Burke & Burke LLP

Cool 2009 statistics bro

The small(er) firm salaries aren't from 2009.

And I don't think it's a horrible assumption to make that if current trends continue the c/o 2014 should at least be at c/o 2009 employment levels.

[Grizz]

No, just accurate.
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

Feel free to look up these firms on NALP and tell me what ya get:
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P.
Roberts & Holland LLP
Axinn, Veltrop & Harkrider LLP
Friedman Kaplan Seiler & Adelman LLP
FROMMER LAWRENCE & HAUG LLP
Satterlee Stephens Burke & Burke LLP

Cool 2009 statistics bro

The small(er) firm salaries aren't from 2009.

And I don't think it's a horrible assumption to make that if current trends continue the c/o 2014 should at least be at c/o 2009 employment levels.

c/o 2009 aka the height of the boom? lol no

[NYC Law]

c/o 2009 aka the height of the boom? lol no

Class of 2008 NLJ 250 Placement (Fordham = 43.7% Placed)

Class of 2009 NLJ 250 Placement (Fordham = 29.4% Placed)

I think we can safely call 2008 the height of the boom and 2009 pretty shitty in comparison.

[blsingindisguise]

c/o 2009 aka the height of the boom? lol no

Class of 2008 NLJ 250 Placement (Fordham = 43.7% Placed)

Class of 2009 NLJ 250 Placement (Fordham = 29.4% Placed)

I think we can safely call 2008 the height of the boom and 2009 pretty shitty in comparison.

Congrats on massively misunderstanding not ONE but TWO crucial things about law firm hiring. (1) most of the "smaller" firms that pay near biglaw salaries hire almost no one right out of school. Each of those firms will take at most a few new grads in a given year. (2) Big firm hiring is done two years in advance, so the relevant year for class of 2009 is 2007. Class of 2011 was the first class to do on-campus interviewing in a true post-bubble environment.

[NYC Law]

c/o 2009 aka the height of the boom? lol no

Class of 2008 NLJ 250 Placement (Fordham = 43.7% Placed)

Class of 2009 NLJ 250 Placement (Fordham = 29.4% Placed)

I think we can safely call 2008 the height of the boom and 2009 pretty shitty in comparison.

Congrats on massively misunderstanding not ONE but TWO crucial things about law firm hiring. (1) most of the "smaller" firms that pay near biglaw salaries hire almost no one right out of school. Each of those firms will take at most a few new grads in a given year. (2) Big firm hiring is done two years in advance, so the relevant year for class of 2009 is 2007. Class of 2011 was the first class to do on-campus interviewing in a true post-bubble environment.

(1) So I guess that gap between the 29% working NLJ 250 firms and 40+% making six figures are all solo? lol... The stats (at least on the thread from here) take into account non-reported salaries and those employed part time. So these aren't imaginary jobs, the students are getting them, and they aren't NLJ 250.

(2) Again, see what I JUST posted. NLJ 250 hiring took a nose dive between c/o 2008 to 2009 and dipped only slightly more for c/o 2010 with signs of picking up in hiring (at least for the larger firms) for the upcoming classes.

[blsingindisguise]

(1) So I guess that gap between the 29% working NLJ 250 firms and 40+% making six figures are all solo? lol... The stats (at least on the thread from here) take into account non-reported salaries and those employed part time. So these aren't imaginary jobs, the students are getting them, and they aren't NLJ 250.

(2) Again, see what I JUST posted. NLJ 250 hiring took a nose dive between c/o 2008 to 2009 and dipped only slightly more for c/o 2010 with signs of picking up in hiring (at least for the larger firms) for the upcoming classes.

Look, you are a 0L and you don't understand how things work.

First of all, US News employment data is self-reported by schools and widely known to be inaccurate/misleading/incomplete.

Second, you can't compare the percentages in the US News numbers to the numbers reported by the NLJ 250 because they're using different methodologies -- i.e. you can't talk about the "gap" between the US News "40%" making six figures and the NLJ 250's (more accurate) 29%.

Third, I promise you that there are not scores of non-NLJ 250 firms paying six figures to new law grads, especially since there are even a decent number of NLJ 250 firms paying five figures.

Fourth, class of 2011 is not an improvement over 2010, it's considerably worse. I know, because I'm class of 2011. People I know at NY schools from NYU to Fordham to Cardozo to Brooklyn to Hofstra are all saying that this year's employment numbers are far worse than last year's. This is because we had the first on campus interview program to take place after the bubble had completely burst and the recession was apparent (summer 2009). So you can "hope" or "assume" that it's a better year all you want, but it isn't true. Career center people have told me as much, deans have told me as much, professors have told me as much.

Fifth, I don't see where you posted NLJ 250 numbers for class of 2010 anyway, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[NYC Law]

First of all, US News employment data is self-reported by schools and widely known to be inaccurate/misleading/incomplete.

Care to specify what exactly is misleading about the class of 2009 figures seeing as they've gone much more in-depth with their employment statistics reporting? The percent employed full time, the percent employed in private practice, the percent reporting salary info, the percent reporting private practice, and the salary quartiles are all given now - this is enough information to reach a reasonable conclusion about how many reach each salary quartile.

Second, you can't compare the percentages in the US News numbers to the numbers reported by the NLJ 250 because they're using different methodologies -- i.e. you can't talk about the "gap" between the US News "40%" making six figures and the NLJ 250's (more accurate) 29%.

See above.

Third, I promise you that there are not scores of non-NLJ 250 firms paying six figures to new law grads, especially since there are even a decent number of NLJ 250 firms paying five figures.

Those that don't are where, West Virginia? Find me some New York City NLJ 250 firms that don't pay six figures and we'll talk. I'm having a hard time finding any NYC firm of any size on NALP that doesn't pay 6 figures, I've only found one firm that starts at $88,000.

Fourth, class of 2011 is not an improvement over 2010, it's considerably worse. I know, because I'm class of 2011.

Class of 2011 could be, and probably is worse. I wasn't disputing that. What I said was that the upcoming classes are showing signs of improvement (starting with the class of 2012 based on OCI figures for this summer)

FROMMER LAWRENCE & HAUG LLP (one of the small firms that 'dont hire law students'): 6 (2010 summer) -> 8 (2011 Summer)

Here's a post from another thread:

Wachtell: 17 -> 17
Cravath: 22 -> 45
Sullivan: 73 -> 129
Skadden: 74 -> 81
Davis Polk: 79 -> 93
Simpson: 72 -> 100
Weil: 36 -> 70
Williams & Connelly: 21 -> 27
Cleary: 75 -> 93
Covington DC: 54 -> 47
Kirkland: 68 -> 130
Paul Weiss NY: 58 -> 80
Debevoise: 52 -> 56
Gibson: 108 -> 107
Latham (NY): 25 -> 47
Sidley (NY): 12 -> 26
Wilmer (DC): 27 -> 37
Jones Day (NY): 19 -> 21
Quinn: 26 -> 44
White & Case (NY): 21 -> 35
Total: 939 -> 1285 (+37%)

Now, the rest of the V100 does not look as good. But there are tentative steps. Shearman is up from 27 -> 37. OMM from 55 -> 69. Orrick SF from 2 -> 10, Orrick NY from 0 -> 17, MoFo SF from 19 -> 24. Alston & Bird Atlanta is 14 -> 28. Finnegan DC from 11 -> 16. Ropes from 76 -> 118.

2012 was tentatively better than 2011. I think 2013 will get better at least as much as 2011 -> 2012. At that point, it won't be 2007 again, but it probably won't be much worse, at least in the T14, than it was before the bubble-induced upturn.

Again, it looks like the upcoming classes are getting better.

People I know at NY schools from NYU to Fordham to Cardozo to Brooklyn to Hofstra are all saying that this year's employment numbers are far worse than last year's. This is because we had the first on campus interview program to take place after the bubble had completely burst and the recession was apparent (summer 2009). So you can "hope" or "assume" that it's a better year all you want, but it isn't true. Career center people have told me as much, deans have told me as much, professors have told me as much.

Anecdote

Fifth, I don't see where you posted NLJ 250 numbers for class of 2010 anyway, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I didn't, I posted 2008 and 2009, but 2010's numbers are the easiest to find, so here:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162
(Fordham 25.68%)

[blsingindisguise]

Anecdote

No, it's not anecdote. It may be secondhand, but it's not anecdote. Anecdote is "my friend can't find a job." This is "my friend at Fordham told me that their career services head told them this is going to be the worst year they've had for employment in a very long time." and "The career services person at my school told me that 2009 (the one that determines employment for the top portion of the class of 2011) was the worst OCI we've had in many many years."

Given that your surmising about 2011 appears to be based on nothing but your own speculative fantasy, I'd go with my info.

[blsingindisguise]

To be clear, it's not crazy to think that 2012 will do better than 2011. In fact I'd say that's probably true based on summer numbers. However saying that things will go back to 2009 levels is silly. 2009 levels are still based in large part on OCI 2007, which was in fact the height of the bubble, which was the original point. So you can't say that Fordham gives you a 40% chance at a six-figure job based on graduates from 2009 having those stats.

[NYC Law]

Anecdote

No, it's not anecdote. It may be secondhand, but it's not anecdote. Anecdote is "my friend can't find a job." This is "my friend at Fordham told me that their career services head told them this is going to be the worst year they've had for employment in a very long time." and "The career services person at my school told me that 2009 (the one that determines employment for the top portion of the class of 2011) was the worst OCI we've had in many many years."

Given that your surmising about 2011 appears to be based on nothing but your own speculative fantasy, I'd go with my info.

What info? You don't provide any actual data, just deceptive hyperbole. 2011 could have a 24% NLJ250 rate which would fit what I said about things stabilizing and improving while still fitting your claims [without data to back it up] about c/o 2011 being the worst employment situation in a long time by the nature of the what the employment rates have been for the past 5 years.

[blsingindisguise]

Just to try to understand what it would mean to get back to 2009 levels, take a look at the 2007 summer associate numbers:
http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/

BTW, I don't know whether the numbers you posted are NY or total. Many of these are NY-only numbers:

Wachtell (NY) -- 34
Cravath (NY) -- 98
Sull Crom (total) -- 126
Skadden (NY) -- 150
Jones Day (NY) -- 48

just a sampling, but you're talking about hiring being at or above double the numbers in your post. I don't think gradually creeping up a little is going to get us back there, nor am I even convinced that the numbers will continue to gradually creep up over the next few years.

[NYC Law]

Just to try to understand what it would mean to get back to 2009 levels, take a look at the 2007 summer associate numbers:
http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/

BTW, I don't know whether the numbers you posted are NY or total. Many of these are NY-only numbers:

Wachtell (NY) -- 34
Cravath (NY) -- 98
Sull Crom (total) -- 126
Skadden (NY) -- 150
Jones Day (NY) -- 48

just a sampling, but you're talking about hiring being at or above double the numbers in your post. I don't think gradually creeping up a little is going to get us back there, nor am I even convinced that the numbers will continue to gradually creep up over the next few years.

Before you were talking about 2007 OCI, and now you're quoting data on 2007 summer, which would be the summer at the height of the bubble. If I said things would return to c/o 2008 levels (43% employed in NLJ 250), then this would be a good argument to make. Unfortunately, I never made that claim. My initial claim was that it would be reasonable to assume a return to 29-30% NLJ250 (the figure for c/o 2009) employment.

[blsingindisguise]

Before you were talking about 2007 OCI, and now you're quoting data on 2007 summer, which would be the summer at the height of the bubble. If I said things would return to c/o 2008 levels (43% employed in NLJ 250), then this would be a good argument to make. Unfortunately, I never made that claim. My initial claim was that it would be reasonable to assume a return to 29-30% NLJ250 (the figure for c/o 2009) employment.

Sorry, you're right about the first part. I'm a bit tired and used the wrong year. Nonetheless the dropoff from 2007 summers to 2008 summers (the latter of whom comprise 2009 graduates) was pretty modest:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1206357948571

e.g. Skadden totals: 321 --> 300, Jones Day 262 --> 248. So c/o 2009 hiring was only slightly off the record highs, and it's not reasonable to expect things to return there within a couple of years.

[NYC Law]

Before you were talking about 2007 OCI, and now you're quoting data on 2007 summer, which would be the summer at the height of the bubble. If I said things would return to c/o 2008 levels (43% employed in NLJ 250), then this would be a good argument to make. Unfortunately, I never made that claim. My initial claim was that it would be reasonable to assume a return to 29-30% NLJ250 (the figure for c/o 2009) employment.

Sorry, you're right about the first part. I'm a bit tired and used the wrong year. Nonetheless the dropoff from 2007 summers to 2008 summers (the latter of whom comprise 2009 graduates) was pretty modest:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1206357948571

e.g. Skadden totals: 321 --> 300, Jones Day 262 --> 248. So c/o 2009 hiring was only slightly off the record highs, and it's not reasonable to expect things to return there within a couple of years.

But the drop off in actual employment wasn't modest (ie 43%->29%), due to no-offers and deferments.

[3ThrowAway99]

No, just accurate.
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

Feel free to look up these firms on NALP and tell me what ya get:
Levine Sullivan Koch & Schulz, L.L.P.
Roberts & Holland LLP
Axinn, Veltrop & Harkrider LLP
Friedman Kaplan Seiler & Adelman LLP
FROMMER LAWRENCE & HAUG LLP
Satterlee Stephens Burke & Burke LLP

Cool 2009 statistics bro

The small(er) firm salaries aren't from 2009.

And I don't think it's a horrible assumption to make that if current trends continue the c/o 2014 should at least be at c/o 2009 employment levels.

c/o 2009 aka the height of the boom? lol no

lolwut.. 2009 was the depth of the crash wasn't it... confused by your logic here... Though I guess the 2009 stats would be based on 2008 interviewing, and at that point the market maybe wasn't totally tanked (though in 2009 I think a lot of those hires were deferred and then eventually no-offered)... If it was bad in 2009 (and it was very bad as far as I know), then expecting things to get back there or better doesn't seem unreasonable to me..


Edit: but I think NYC Law poster made these points quite well already. I do think that getting a sweet job out of Fordham is still far from certain though....