Boston College vs. Vanderbilt Forum

[lebroniousjames]

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[Rawlsian]

Here are some numbers to compare:

OCI
This year 27 New York NALP-directory firms interview at Vandy; 23 at BC.
255 NALP-directory firms (offices) interview at Vandy; 157 at BC.

NLJ placement:
2006
Vandy: 44.6%
BC: 39.1%

2007
Vandy: 40.3
BC: 36.8

2008
Vandy: 44.6
BC: 45.8

2009
Vandy: 47.1
BC: 34.6

2010
Vandy: 29.8
BC: 33.6

Art. III Clerkship Placement:
Not going to look this up, but it's probably safe to say for last 4 years or so: Vandy 10% ish, BC 5% ish.

[madisonsmith5599]

Here are some numbers to compare:

OCI
This year 27 New York NALP-directory firms interview at Vandy; 23 at BC.
255 NALP-directory firms (offices) interview at Vandy; 157 at BC.

NLJ placement:
2006
Vandy: 44.6%
BC: 39.1%

2007
Vandy: 40.3
BC: 36.8

2008
Vandy: 44.6
BC: 45.8

2009
Vandy: 47.1
BC: 34.6

2010
Vandy: 29.8
BC: 33.6

Art. III Clerkship Placement:
Not going to look this up, but it's probably safe to say for last 4 years or so: Vandy 10% ish, BC 5% ish.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I wonder whether Vandy's NLJ numbers will recover significantly by the time I graduate (from wherever I go).

[Rawlsian]

Here are some numbers to compare:

OCI
This year 27 New York NALP-directory firms interview at Vandy; 23 at BC.
255 NALP-directory firms (offices) interview at Vandy; 157 at BC.

NLJ placement:
2006
Vandy: 44.6%
BC: 39.1%

2007
Vandy: 40.3
BC: 36.8

2008
Vandy: 44.6
BC: 45.8

2009
Vandy: 47.1
BC: 34.6

2010
Vandy: 29.8
BC: 33.6

Art. III Clerkship Placement:
Not going to look this up, but it's probably safe to say for last 4 years or so: Vandy 10% ish, BC 5% ish.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I wonder whether Vandy's NLJ numbers will recover significantly by the time I graduate (from wherever I go).

The major reason Vandy had such low NLJ numbers this last time around was because in 2008, Nearly 65% of Vandy students did their SA in the South or Midwest--regions that had offer rates below 50%, and rates which were dramatically below the offer rates from the other regions around the country (compare with New York's 85%+). When the students bid during the summer, they didn't know what would happen in Sept and Oct, and they certainly didn't know the offer rates would decline in certain regions as markedly as they did. From this last class that only placed 29% in NLJ 250 firms, 50%+ still had SA jobs in NLJ 250 firms; they were just 'no-offered' at an abnormally high rate. Since 2008, Vandy students have adjusted their bidding strategies and firms in the SE and Midwest have dramatically improved their offer rates. Consequently, I believe its fair to say this class (and those that follow) will do much better than 29%.

[madisonsmith5599]

The major reason Vandy had such low NLJ numbers this last time around was because in 2008, Nearly 65% of Vandy students did their SA in the South or Midwest--regions that had offer rates below 50%, and rates which were dramatically below the offer rates from the other regions around the country (compare with New York's 85%+). When the students bid during the summer, they didn't know what would happen in Sept and Oct, and they certainly didn't know the offer rates would decline in certain regions as markedly as they did. From this last class that only placed 29% in NLJ 250 firms, 50%+ still had SA jobs in NLJ 250 firms; they were just 'no-offered' at an abnormally high rate. Since 2008, Vandy students have adjusted their bidding strategies and firms in the SE and Midwest have dramatically improved their offer rates. Consequently, I believe its fair to say this class (and those that follow) will do much better than 29%.

Can anyone offer any similar analysis of Boston College's recent NLJ numbers? Any insight on whether BC is on an upswing or downswing with regard to job placement, NLJ or otherwise?

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

BC's stats were similarly down, but students from BC/BU/Fordham/etc. typically summer at top Vault-ranked law firms in NYC/DC/Boston, depending on which school you are looking at. Obviously all law firms were hit by the recession, and thus all schools stats were down, but because students at these schools often go to the largest law firms in the northeast rather than smaller southern/midwestern law firms like their Vandy counterparts, the stats of these schools in the northeast may not have taken a hit as bad as Vandy's stats.

I am sure Vandy's stats will get better, but so will all law school stats. I wouldn't evaluate schools based on hypotheticals.

[fingersxd]

Out of cuiosity, for those who chose BC here (2:1), how much closer would Vandy have to be to tip your decision? I'm making the assumption (whether accurate or not) that money being equal, a large majority would choose Vanderbilt.

That said, would a difference of 35k instead of 45k be enough to pick Vandy? 25k?

[fingersxd]

BC's stats were similarly down, but students from BC/BU/Fordham/etc. typically summer at top Vault-ranked law firms in NYC/DC/Boston, depending on which school you are looking at. Obviously all law firms were hit by the recession, and thus all schools stats were down, but because students at these schools often go to the largest law firms in the northeast rather than smaller southern/midwestern law firms like their Vandy counterparts, the stats of these schools in the northeast may not have taken a hit as bad as Vandy's stats.

I am sure Vandy's stats will get better, but so will all law school stats. I wouldn't evaluate schools based on hypotheticals.

Doesn't the decline of opportunities in the South and Midwest also mean to more Vandy ppl may be gunning for DC/NYC for at least the next few years? If so, would people expect more competition from a school like Vandy to hurt BC/BU's numbers in DC/NYC, or would the difference be insignificant?

[alumniguy]

Personally from Boston and one of best friends went to Vandy undergrad--so here's my take. BC Law is not actually in the city. It's right near the D Line train, though, so you can make a fairly easy commute from farther out to lessen the COL. Living downtown/on campus at Vandy certainly won't be cheap, and, based on both my own and my friend's opinion, the surrounding area of Boston is much nicer (and has a significantly better public transit system if you're not trying to get a car). That said, the Vandy campus is much nicer than the BC Law satellite campus in Newton (it is not part of the undergrad campus in Chestnut Hill/Cleveland Circle).

If you want a job in New England, BC in a wash. For NYC, I think it'd probably be a matter of firm preference that would ultimately balance out fairly evenly. But once you drop below that New York line, I'd agree with the comments that the lay/profession prestige of Vandy shifts the odds in its favor across the rest of the country (perhaps with a small exception of canceling out in the Cali market).

Vandy might have an edge in terms of placement considering its smaller class size, but that also means less alums spread around--not sure how that equation works out.

If I didn't want to stay in New England, I'd go with Vandy. But if you're looking NYC and north, BC is a better overall choice IMO

Generally not going to get into the Vandy v. BC debate, but do need to correct the misconceptions about BC "not being in Boston." While technically true, such descriptions suggest that because BC is located in the suburbs of Boston that this somehow translates into a non-Boston city experience is just inaccurate. Yes, BC's law school is located in Newton. Yes, Newton is a suburb of Boston. But, most students attending BC live in Boston, and not in Newton. Most students "commute," i.e., travel about 20-30 minutes by either car, public transportation or bus.

Again, the majority of BC students live in Boston - the neighborhoods of Alston and Brighton (and Brookline, also a suburb of Boston). Very few students live in Newton (and an even smaller number live in the true suburbs of Boston - Waltham, Watertown, Needham, etc.). This board is obsessed with noting that BC is located in Newton. I just don't understand it. If anyone chooses BC because they think they are going to get a "suburban" experience, I think those people are going to be surprised by the fact that BC students on the whole have a decidedly urban experience. I went to BC and I didn't have a car. When I relate my law school experiences, I say "I went to school in Boston." I lived in Boston. I went downtown frequently. I went to bars and restaurants in Boston and Cambridge. If you go to BC, then you too will be experiencing Boston first hand.

OK, couldn't help but give my 2 cents on the Vandy v. BC debate. BK187 has it correct. The real debate here is whether the increased costs of Vandy still make it a better decision than BC. Vandy is a more well regarded school than BC. It is likely do to a host of factors, including the fact that there just aren't as many well regarded Southern law schools compared to the over saturated NE/mid-Atlantic region. For $50k in loans, I would say go to BC. However, if my family was paying and it didn't involve loans, then I would say go to Vandy. This assumes that OP doesn't mind going to school in the South.

[madisonsmith5599]

Generally not going to get into the Vandy v. BC debate, but do need to correct the misconceptions about BC "not being in Boston." While technically true, such descriptions suggest that because BC is located in the suburbs of Boston that this somehow translates into a non-Boston city experience is just inaccurate. Yes, BC's law school is located in Newton. Yes, Newton is a suburb of Boston. But, most students attending BC live in Boston, and not in Newton. Most students "commute," i.e., travel about 20-30 minutes by either car, public transportation or bus.

Again, the majority of BC students live in Boston - the neighborhoods of Alston and Brighton (and Brookline, also a suburb of Boston). Very few students live in Newton (and an even smaller number live in the true suburbs of Boston - Waltham, Watertown, Needham, etc.). This board is obsessed with noting that BC is located in Newton. I just don't understand it. If anyone chooses BC because they think they are going to get a "suburban" experience, I think those people are going to be surprised by the fact that BC students on the whole have a decidedly urban experience. I went to BC and I didn't have a car. When I relate my law school experiences, I say "I went to school in Boston." I lived in Boston. I went downtown frequently. I went to bars and restaurants in Boston and Cambridge. If you go to BC, then you too will be experiencing Boston first hand.

OK, couldn't help but give my 2 cents on the Vandy v. BC debate. BK187 has it correct. The real debate here is whether the increased costs of Vandy still make it a better decision than BC. Vandy is a more well regarded school than BC. It is likely do to a host of factors, including the fact that there just aren't as many well regarded Southern law schools compared to the over saturated NE/mid-Atlantic region. For $50k in loans, I would say go to BC. However, if my family was paying and it didn't involve loans, then I would say go to Vandy. This assumes that OP doesn't mind going to school in the South.

OP here. Thanks for your comments. My family will be paying for my tuition and living expenses, but we will be taking out loans regardless of where I go. The loans would be much larger if I go to Vandy. $40k-$50k is the difference in cost ... I'm still really struggling to decide whether Vandy would be worth it.

[madisonsmith5599]

Out of cuiosity, for those who chose BC here (2:1), how much closer would Vandy have to be to tip your decision? I'm making the assumption (whether accurate or not) that money being equal, a large majority would choose Vanderbilt.

That said, would a difference of 35k instead of 45k be enough to pick Vandy? 25k?

$25k would probably make it a lot easier for me to pick Vandy. (I'm obviously not one of the people who voted, though.) And yeah, if money were equal I would probably go Vandy. I'm still undecided.

[cinephile]

$40-50k difference would be too much for me, I'd take BC.

[alumniguy]

If you are looking primarily at biglaw opportunities, I would be inclined to suggest BC given your concern for "value." You'll have a good shot at getting a market or close-to-market salary out of both of these schools. Firms likely go deeper into Vandy class (when looking at NLJ250 + Art. III clerkships), but I'm not sure that the extra 5-10% depth is worth $45k.

As painful as it may be, I'd also encourage you to look at "worst case scenarios," i.e. what happens to the bottom 25% of the classes at each school. I know from experience at BC that it can be rough and most bottom students are looking at (i) sub 6-figure salaries and (ii) possible unemployment. I'd imagine it is similarl at Vandy, but I am not in a position to know since I haven't looked at the figures.

OP may want to reach out to BC regarding additional scholarship money and attempt to leverage his/her Vandy acceptance into more money. If you could get the cost of BC down even further, then I think most people would likely take BC at a significant scholarship over sticker at Vandy.

[stratocophic]

That kind of difference sent me to one of BC's peers over Vandy, so I can't really advocate for choosing Vandy (despite my abiding love for the school).

[madisonsmith5599]

That kind of difference sent me to one of BC's peers over Vandy, so I can't really advocate for choosing Vandy (despite my abiding love for the school).

When you made your decision, was cost the deciding factor, or job prospects / region, or some mix of everything? Just trying to get a feel for how someone else in a similar situation approached this. If you would be willing to share details, I would appreciate it.

[stratocophic]

That kind of difference sent me to one of BC's peers over Vandy, so I can't really advocate for choosing Vandy (despite my abiding love for the school).

When you made your decision, was cost the deciding factor, or job prospects / region, or some mix of everything? Just trying to get a feel for how someone else in a similar situation approached this. If you would be willing to share details, I would appreciate it.

Little bit of everything. Really liked WashU so the feel/fit factor was basically even between the two, and cost definitely weighed heavily. I'm risk averse, so I approached my decision from the worst-case perspective. I couldn't justify paying a minimum of 60k more for an increase of about 15% in the safety net (in terms of class rank), and especially not when there was a 60%+ chance that'd I'd end up on the wrong side of that safety net anyway. Literally could not have worked out better for me personally, though some unusual circumstances have played into that as well. Also region wasn't super important to me, and I knew that WashU wasn't that far behind Vandy in terms of dispersal. Since I was aware that I'd need the grades either way, I figured regional preference was pretty close to neutral as well.