BU ($) vs. BC ($$) Forum

[aliarrow]

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[Perch]

P.S. - I just spoke with BU. They are admitting roughly 30 less students than in prior years and their goal is to have the new wing ready for the Class of 2014 to use for their last year (though of course construction delays could push this back).

Better question - if BU matches the 25k from BC does this poll change? Right now it is almost 2:1 for BC. Money being equal does BU win out?

Really it's so close you shouldn't even listen to us. Just go where ever feels right, you won't be making an awful decision by attending the 'wrong one'.
If you want an Urban school, go to BU. If you want a traditional campus, go to BC.

with the money that close I would (and did) go by wherever I saw myself fitting in and being happy. good luck!

[belligerentfuture]

I made the same decision, and chose BC--I'm very happy with my choice. I'm sure BU professors are also high quality, but I have stay that I have *adored* several of my professors, who are both geniuses (SCOTUS clerks) and genuinely friendly, nice, and caring human beings. I think unless you have a strong interest in something like health law, BC is as good of a choice (if not better!) for less money. Also, BC kids can cross-register at BU anytime we want, so even certain specific classes you wanted to take you can anyways (I've never ended up doing it even though I considered it).

good luck with your choice...

[whymeohgodno]

Guys. Seriously. BU=BC. Just go to whoever gives you more money or whatever campus you like better. Placement wise one school may very marginally outplace another but it's not worth giving up $15k for.

[dakatz]

Speaking of faculty, BU (the entire university, not just the law school, so we are talking a TON of professors) has a contest every year in which students nominate and vote on who the absolute best professors are. This award is super hard to win due to sheer statistics, yet 2 of the 3 1L contracts professors have won the award, my constitutional law professor won the award, our dean is a former award winning professor herself. The fact that the Dean won the award really says a lot since she was once a highly-beloved professor who transitioned into her position of leadership. This is far different than a school who has some outsider come and try to run the place. All of these heavy-hitters teach 1L classes (aside from the Dean, who still teaches an upper level course)

Not that the Princeton Review rankings matter much, but they have ranked BU number 1 in law school faculty 2 of the past 3 years.

http://www.bu.edu/today/node/12456

By far the best part about BU and the reason I picked it over competing schools.

[aliarrow]

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[belligerentfuture]

as an addendum--if you have any interest in Tax or Bankruptcy, BCLS is the sh*t Ingrid Hillinger runs the UCC Digest journal, and is the world's awesome-ist, most inappropriate battle-axe that ever taught 1L contracts. She will also make you have "tea" with her, which is a cookie-themed spanish inquisition where she will expound on why "all jesuits are gay anyways" and other good topics. We used to keep a running record of her jaw-dropping, silence-inducing mis-statements in class....it took a good 30 seconds for anyone to move/breathe after the first time she said "Well now Mr. ___, I think you've blown your wad on that one." good times

[alumniguy]

as an addendum--if you have any interest in Tax or Bankruptcy, BCLS is the sh*t Ingrid Hillinger runs the UCC Digest journal, and is the world's awesome-ist, most inappropriate battle-axe that ever taught 1L contracts. She will also make you have "tea" with her, which is a cookie-themed spanish inquisition where she will expound on why "all jesuits are gay anyways" and other good topics. We used to keep a running record of her jaw-dropping, silence-inducing mis-statements in class....it took a good 30 seconds for anyone to move/breathe after the first time she said "Well now Mr. ___, I think you've blown your wad on that one." good times

Credited. Hillinger was by far the best professor I had at BC. She demands a lot from students, but she is also relatively easy going. She will challenge you to the point where you don't know if the answer you just gave was indeed the right answer or not.

I hope for other's benefit she still teaches secured transactions (which was the single best class I took during law school - especially from the perspective of actually being useful to the practice of being a lawyer).

[JusticeHarlan]

I hope for other's benefit she still teaches secured transactions (which was the single best class I took during law school - especially from the perspective of actually being useful to the practice of being a lawyer).

Indeed she does.

[fingersxd]

On a somewhat related note, what are people's thoughts about continuing to negotiate aid AFTER putting down a deposit?

[aliarrow]

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[Blindmelon]

Those of you who think BU "games the rankings more" is pretty conspiracy theory-esque. All schools game the rankings. All schools fudge employment statistics, BU might do it differently. Bottom line, both schools ITE are hurting bad. I would go to the one you like more or thats just cheaper (probably just cheaper). Any talk of prestige or whatever is splitting hairs as it depends 100% on who you talk to - some say BC, some say BU. It also depends a lot on the firm actually.

I don't know much about BC's tax program, but BU's is pretty top notch as well. The only discernible difference I can see in the two schools other than the facilities is that I think BC emphasizes environmental law a little more (we only have a few enviro courses), and BU offers a ton in health law (I think too much actually).

[alumniguy]

Those of you who think BU "games the rankings more" is pretty conspiracy theory-esque. All schools game the rankings. All schools fudge employment statistics, BU might do it differently. Bottom line, both schools ITE are hurting bad. I would go to the one you like more or thats just cheaper (probably just cheaper). Any talk of prestige or whatever is splitting hairs as it depends 100% on who you talk to - some say BC, some say BU. It also depends a lot on the firm actually.

I don't know much about BC's tax program, but BU's is pretty top notch as well. The only discernible difference I can see in the two schools other than the facilities is that I think BC emphasizes environmental law a little more (we only have a few enviro courses), and BU offers a ton in health law (I think too much actually).

Disagree with your assertion that it is conspiracy theory-esque. Please see academia stats - BU 16%, BC 4.9%, GW 6.8%, Fordham 5%, WUSTL 1%. Something doesn't add up. That is a HUGE number of students going into academia from BU. You take that away and all of a sudden BU's placement statistics move from the 90%+ employed to 80%+ employed - which would dramatically impact the rankings (I would think).

Schools in the T-14 don't even place such a high percentage of students into academia - NYU 1%, Columbia .5%, Harvard .5%. So yes, all schools likely game the rankings, but it is clear that some schools are more interested in pumping up there numbers than others.

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[Blindmelon]

Those of you who think BU "games the rankings more" is pretty conspiracy theory-esque. All schools game the rankings. All schools fudge employment statistics, BU might do it differently. Bottom line, both schools ITE are hurting bad. I would go to the one you like more or thats just cheaper (probably just cheaper). Any talk of prestige or whatever is splitting hairs as it depends 100% on who you talk to - some say BC, some say BU. It also depends a lot on the firm actually.

I don't know much about BC's tax program, but BU's is pretty top notch as well. The only discernible difference I can see in the two schools other than the facilities is that I think BC emphasizes environmental law a little more (we only have a few enviro courses), and BU offers a ton in health law (I think too much actually).

Disagree with your assertion that it is conspiracy theory-esque. Please see academia stats - BU 16%, BC 4.9%, GW 6.8%, Fordham 5%, WUSTL 1%. Something doesn't add up. That is a HUGE number of students going into academia from BU. You take that away and all of a sudden BU's placement statistics move from the 90%+ employed to 80%+ employed - which would dramatically impact the rankings (I would think).

Schools in the T-14 don't even place such a high percentage of students into academia - NYU 1%, Columbia .5%, Harvard .5%. So yes, all schools likely game the rankings, but it is clear that some schools are more interested in pumping up there numbers than others.

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I agree, academia is a BS category no doubt which is probably BU hiring back graduates (Northwestern used to be notorious for this). That doesn't mean that BC doesn't lump in a bunch of part time non-paid grads into law firms or another category.

[alumniguy]

I agree, academia is a BS category no doubt which is probably BU hiring back graduates (Northwestern used to be notorious for this). That doesn't mean that BC doesn't lump in a bunch of part time non-paid grads into law firms or another category.

But that is a completely baseless assertion. There is nothing that suggests that BC does that (and certainly not in any amount greater than any other school).

Yet, BU places an exorbitant amount of its grads - practically 1 in 6 grads - yes 1 in 6 grads - into academia. Interesting indeed.

[Blindmelon]

I agree, academia is a BS category no doubt which is probably BU hiring back graduates (Northwestern used to be notorious for this). That doesn't mean that BC doesn't lump in a bunch of part time non-paid grads into law firms or another category.

But that is a completely baseless assertion. There is nothing that suggests that BC does that (and certainly not in any amount greater than any other school).

Yet, BU places an exorbitant amount of its grads - practically 1 in 6 grads - yes 1 in 6 grads - into academia. Interesting indeed.

Interesting yea, but I know a decent amount who go into the LLM program to ride out a deferral (not a bad idea for tax people), but yes I agree with you theres no way its legit. I don't trust any self-reported statistics, whether it be into firms or not. Schools fudge clerkship numbers (count interns as AIII clerks), so how can you be sure that BC doesn't fudge the non-NLJ firm #?

[BCLS]

alumniguy I never even thought of that. Very interesting!

[aliarrow]

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[BCLS]

alumniguy I never even thought of that. Very interesting!

Ahem, I believe I pointed that out initially.

Interesting yea, but I know a decent amount who go into the LLM program to ride out a deferral (not a bad idea for tax people), but yes I agree with you theres no way its legit. I don't trust any self-reported statistics, whether it be into firms or not. Schools fudge clerkship numbers (count interns as AIII clerks), so how can you be sure that BC doesn't fudge the non-NLJ firm #?

The Acedemia figure is separate from those just pursuing advanced degrees (2.6% of grads 9 months out).

I'm on team BU here, I haven't even applied to BC. But I think they do have slightly worse statistics when you take part-time data into consideration (unless BC is exceptionally gifted at manipulating the numbers). But I'm willing to take that slight hit for a school I just enjoy more.

NOO come to BC and be a legal eagle ! J/k obviously you need to go where you are the happiest BU is great.

[alumniguy]

Interesting yea, but I know a decent amount who go into the LLM program to ride out a deferral (not a bad idea for tax people), but yes I agree with you theres no way its legit. I don't trust any self-reported statistics, whether it be into firms or not. Schools fudge clerkship numbers (count interns as AIII clerks), so how can you be sure that BC doesn't fudge the non-NLJ firm #?

First, students that pursue "graduate school" are generally lumped into another category - pursuing a graduate degree. So the academia category is not students that are choosing to pursue a further degree, whether it be an LLM or an MBA (at least as far as I read the data).

Second, my point was never that all schools other than BU don't fudge numbers. My point was simply that, in my opinion, BU tends to game the rankings more than other comparable schools.

If you look at information across the past two years, you'll find that BC for example has a pretty linear percentage of graduates going into the various categories. The AIII clerkship numbers are relatively static (3-5 percent), the number of unemployed graduates is relatively static (3-5 percent), the number of graduates going into firms is relatively static (about 65 percent). I note that I've checked out the numbers for Notre Dame and GW as well and they are relatively static as well (ND did have a dramatic fall off in firm placement from 2008 to 2009 though).

However, when we look at BU, there is a 10% jump in people going into academia - from a relatively high 6.9% in 2008 to 16% in 2009. Interestingly, the number of students in law firms declined from 68% in 2008 to 59% in 2009. The other numbers appear relatively static. So, there must be something going on.

BU is very adept at the rankings game. It has soared in the rankings and continues to do very well. There are certainly other factors that are attributable to BU's ranking - including, for example, reducing its class size and using scholarship money to attract splitters to increase its medians. In fact, the sustained rise in the rankings has affected perception - see the rise is assessment by lawyers/judges score - and solidified BU as a comparable school to any T20 school.

Third, I can't be sure that BC or any other school doesn't fudge certain self-reported numbers. However, when the numbers are relatively consistent from 2008 (a banner year of firm hiring) to 2009 (a not so great year for firm hiring), then I think it tends to give credence to the accuracy of the numbers. I could be completely off base and a complete troll for BC, but I have generally been rather neutral in debates about one school being better than the other. To be honest, I've never really focused on this before and I am pretty shocked that no one else has because it seems to imply that in 2009 BU had significant problems (at least comparing to previous years) in getting its grads hired. This is only two years of information. It will be interesting to see next year's numbers, which are likely going to be dismal for pretty much every non-T14 law school.

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FWIW, as I've said before, students above median at both schools likely will have a good opportunities to secure biglaw or other gainful employment. Neither school particularly outshines the other to its above-median students. Certain firms may be biased in favor of one school or the other, but it is unlikely that it really matters in the aggregate. It is the below median students that I think may have slightly better options due in large part to BC's alumni network - a network that has shown to be loyal to hiring BC grads. These loyal alumni are not working at the market salary firms, but they are partners at the small firms that provide a decent salary.

[alumniguy]

alumniguy I never even thought of that. Very interesting!

Ahem, I believe I pointed that out initially.

Yes, aliarrow, you were the poster who pointed this out. Credit where credit is due.

I'm actually somewhat surprised this hasn't gotten more play on these boards.

[Blindmelon]

I don't really understand why gaming the rankings is so bad. Its a BS magazine thats schools have an incentive to be ranked higher. If BU fudges a little and continues the past decade trend of beating out schools like BC then I'm all for it.

But seriously guys, who gives a shit. You can't seriously be trying to argue that BC is discernibly better. If so, then I'll have to go back to the old thread and pull out the Leiter posts saying that BU trounces BC in the Northeast. We can put bullshit against bullshit and make this an awful thread.

[aliarrow]

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[alumniguy]

I don't really understand why gaming the rankings is so bad. Its a BS magazine thats schools have an incentive to be ranked higher. If BU fudges a little and continues the past decade trend of beating out schools like BC then I'm all for it.

But seriously guys, who gives a shit. You can't seriously be trying to argue that BC is discernibly better. If so, then I'll have to go back to the old thread and pull out the Leiter posts saying that BU trounces BC in the Northeast. We can put bullshit against bullshit and make this an awful thread.

Why is it bad? Well, it is blatantly deceptive. Any school that legitimately finds ambiguities in the way the USNews collects data AND EXPLOITS THOSE AMBIGUITIES TO ITS ADVANTAGE is being deceptive. Many potential students look at USNews as an accurate source of information regarding the metrics that USNews uses to rank law schools. If a school is not being fully truthful, i.e., stating that a bunch of their graduates are "employed" in academia even though those students are not truly "employed" in a real legal job, then that school is basically deceiving potential schools.

Do I fault all law schools for "fudging" numbers? I certainly do. Do I assign more fault schools that appear to be fudging their numbers more than the typical school, yes. There is no excuse for it. Hopefully the ABA will require law schools present their employment statistics in a more meaningful way that allows USNews and potential students to more accurately gauge true employment options.

And no, we haven't been arguing that either school is better, so stop pulling out that straw man argument.

And that Leiter "study" has little to no relevance to job prospects. First, it is focused on what Leiter describes as 15 "elite" law firms - basically the top vault firms that allowed him to search the law firm directory by school attended. He states that he needed to go to the 24th ranked firm to get 15 firms that allow this type of search. So at the outset, we are talking about about a pretty random subset of firms. Second, you'll note that of those 15 firms, a grand total of 1 firm had a Boston office. Yes, that would Skadden Boston - a pretty small player in the Boston market. For schools that are located in Boston and which Boston is the main market, I'm not sure this study has that much relevance to job prospects. Third, the study doesn't directly address placement because Leiter includes all graduates working at a firm. It is well know that there is massive attrition in biglaw and thus, there is a significant subset of students who had jobs that simply didn't get counted because they left these firms prior to being counted. At the most, we can conclude that the schools that do well in Leiter's study are more likely to produce graduates that are willing to put up with biglaw life and remain employed by biglaw.

I mean what subset of students at BC/BU actually have a shot at the likes of Cravath, S&C, Davis Polk, Simpson, etc. My guess would be the top 5% tops.

Edit: here is the link to the study for anyone who is interested: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

[Blindmelon]

alumniguy, you're sounding oddly more like Informative or smalllaw every day - biggest BC trolls who just change their names and keep posting sigh. You back old buddy?