WUSTL (10k) vs Loyola LA (29k) for Los Angeles Forum

[samfii]

Hey guys, so here are my options.
-29k/year at Loyola, over three years it would be 87k. The scholarship at Loyola is renewable with the top 1/3rd stipulation, which kind of scares me. I tried to negotiate it out with the dean and I had no luck. I also tried to get the stipulation lowered at least, and that wasn't successful either.
-10k/year at WUSTLY, so 30k total, guaranteed.

About me: I've lived in Los Angeles all my life with ties back here, and am looking to make it back here after law school. I'm not necessarily looking for biglaw, but come graduation time, I'll probably want to take the best offer I get, at least for a few years. I understand that if I go to WUSTL, I'm going to have to put some significant legwork of my own to get back here.

I'm asking overall, debt-wise and job-opportunity-wise, what do you guys think?

p.s. I've visited both, and WUSTL is gorgeous, but Loyola is by my family, friends, SO, etc, which is also really important to me

Thanks

[JamMasterJ]

I think you should ask if you can guarantee your scholarship by sacrificing some of the money. If you're in-state, go Loyola, otherwise, WUSTL

[bk1]

I think you should ask if you can guarantee your scholarship by sacrificing some of the money. If you're in-state, go Loyola, otherwise, WUSTL

Loyola doesn't have in-state tuition. From what I've heard they won't take away stipulations either.

[samfii]

I've tried negotiating with Loyola right and left, they just won't budge. The dean said there was a rigid formula they use when giving scholarships.

Also, I've done the calculations and if I lose the scholarship at Loyola, i'll come out with about 180k. At WUSTL, I will come out with about 145-150k

[bk1]

I'm asking overall, debt-wise and job-opportunity-wise, what do you guys think?

Overall, this is easily WUSTL. Loyola CoA is $68,000/year and WUSTL CoA is $63,000/year (you could probably shave WUSTL's down even more since WUSTL budgets 25% more in "Personal Expenses" than Loyola does and doing pretty much anything is cheaper in St. Louis than in LA). So WUSTL is going to cost you $150,000. Loyola on the other hand is going to cost you either $120,000 (best case scenario, 30-40% chance of occurring) or $180,000 (worst case scenario, 60-70% chance of occurring). Since WUSTL is a significantly better school than Loyola and the worst case scenario is the most likely coming out of Loyola because you are more likely to lose your scholarship than to keep it, WUSTL is the hands down better call overall. However, $150,000 debt at WUSTL is still a lot and probably not worth it.

Loyola is by my family, friends, SO, etc, which is also really important to me

However there is something to be said for this. You want to be in LA and Loyola is going to guarantee that for you, even if there is a high chance that your future salary is going to make it so that you are paying down debt for decades. If you went to WUSTL you would have to be okay with ending up in the midwest for a while after graduation since that is the most likely scenario and getting to LA would be a longshot out of WUSTL. Because of this, unless you can be okay with working in the midwest for a while after school, you should take the gamble at Loyola over going to WUSTL even though WUSTL is the objectively better decision by far.

All that being said, I think you should retake/reapply if you really want to work in LA as neither of these offers are very enticing for that. At least get into a T14/USC/UCLA or UCD/UCH/UCI for cheap with no scholarship stipulations.

[samfii]

However there is something to be said for this. You want to be in LA and Loyola is going to guarantee that for you, even if there is a high chance that your future salary is going to make it so that you are paying down debt for decades. If you went to WUSTL you would have to be okay with ending up in the midwest for a while after graduation since that is the most likely scenario and getting to LA would be a longshot out of WUSTL. Because of this, unless you can be okay with working in the midwest for a while after school, you should take the gamble at Loyola over going to WUSTL even though WUSTL is the objectively better decision by far.

This is the part I worry about. When I went out there and talked to the dean, she said that the school has a very broad reach and that she thinks it's definitely possible for me to make my way back (She was suuuper sweet and smart, I very much liked her). I also talked to a student that was from California and wanted to come back, and he didn't seem too worried about it.
But then on the other hand, i've seen people on TLS say that it's hard/impossible to make it back here and that I might be stuck in the midwest. I'm kind of torn on which to think and I don't want to be too overly pessimistic or optimistic :-/

All that being said, I think you should retake/reapply if you really want to work in LA as neither of these offers are very enticing for that. At least get into a T14/USC/UCLA or UCD/UCH/UCI for cheap with no scholarship stipulations.

I'm on the waitlist at UCI/UCD/UCH and wouldn't want to attend the last two at sticker. If I got into UCI I would probably consider it, but I don't think they are going to dip too far into their waitlist...

[JamMasterJ]

I think you should ask if you can guarantee your scholarship by sacrificing some of the money. If you're in-state, go Loyola, otherwise, WUSTL

Loyola doesn't have in-state tuition. From what I've heard they won't take away stipulations either.

Right, I forgot they were private.

OP Overall, WUSTL will give you better employment opportunities. It really depends on how you weigh your desire to be close to your family versus your desire to get a job

[samfii]

OP Overall, WUSTL will give you better employment opportunities. It really depends on how you weigh your desire to be close to your family versus your desire to get a job

lol... When you say "desire to get a job", what do you mean? That it will be significantly more difficult to get a good job out of Loyola, or getting a job in general?

[bk1]

This is the part I worry about. When I went out there and talked to the dean, she said that the school has a very broad reach and that she thinks it's definitely possible for me to make my way back (She was suuuper sweet and smart, I very much liked her). I also talked to a student that was from California and wanted to come back, and he didn't seem too worried about it.
But then on the other hand, i've seen people on TLS say that it's hard/impossible to make it back here and that I might be stuck in the midwest. I'm kind of torn on which to think and I don't want to be too overly pessimistic or optimistic :-/

I would definitely take it with a grain of salt. All schools try to pump themselves up as national and showcase their grads who got jobs in far away regions. This is especially true at the top regional schools who are trying to national rather than accepting that they are regional. They do this to attract kids from far away. The thing is that yes, WUSTL is trying to place grads outside their region and they are putting a lot of effort into it. But if you don't have the grades it is going to be quite hard to get so I wouldn't count on leaving. If I had to ballpark it I would just throw up a number like 20-30% and say that that is about your chances of getting CA immediately. You probably have a good shot at leaving the midwest, but I would say you'd need to be okay with the midwest in the eventuality that you missed on CA.

I'm on the waitlist at UCI/UCD/UCH and wouldn't want to attend the last two at sticker. If I got into UCI I would probably consider it, but I don't think they are going to dip too far into their waitlist...

Since you're wl'ed at UCD/UCH money is probably nonexistent there. I'm assuming even waitlist acceptances at UCI get the 1/3 scholarship? If so, I would take UCI over WUSTL/Loyola if you got off their waitlist. But I still think retake/reapply is most prudent if you could make yourself eligible for large scholarships at UCD/UCH next cycle or make yourself eligible for the T14/USC/UCLA (not that those schools are that pretty at sticker either).

[bk1]

lol... When you say "desire to get a job", what do you mean? That it will be significantly more difficult to get a good job out of Loyola, or getting a job in general?

Getting any full time legal job is going to be much harder out of Loyola than it is out of WUSTL. Getting a CA full time legal job is going to be much harder out of WUSTL than it is out of Loyola. That is what he means.

Consider that part time and non-permanent positions, not to mention actual unemployment, likely make up a decent chunk of what Loyola grads end up getting. These things are also non-negligible at WUSTL, but things at WUSTL are much better than at Loyola.

[tothePAIN]

Someone in another thread (don't ask me where) emailed the Dean of Loyola and had an email from the Dean stating that roughly 40% of students renew their scholarship after the first year.

[Curry]

I agree with BK here. Job prospects out of WUSTL > Loyola. Job prospects in LA are better from Loyola than they are from WUSTL. That being said, given the Loyola stip, and the fact that, if all else fails, having a job in the midwest > funemployment in LA, I think you take WUSTL. Also Dean Pless hates you.

[samfii]

I agree with BK here. Job prospects out of WUSTL > Loyola. Job prospects in LA are better from Loyola than they are from WUSTL. That being said, given the Loyola stip, and the fact that, if all else fails, having a job in the midwest > funemployment in LA, I think you take WUSTL. Also Dean Pless hates you.

Haha do NOT bring that into this!!!!!!

I would definitely take it with a grain of salt. All schools try to pump themselves up as national and showcase their grads who got jobs in far away regions. This is especially true at the top regional schools who are trying to national rather than accepting that they are regional. They do this to attract kids from far away. The thing is that yes, WUSTL is trying to place grads outside their region and they are putting a lot of effort into it. But if you don't have the grades it is going to be quite hard to get so I wouldn't count on leaving. If I had to ballpark it I would just throw up a number like 20-30% and say that that is about your chances of getting CA immediately. You probably have a good shot at leaving the midwest, but I would say you'd need to be okay with the midwest in the eventuality that you missed on CA.

Thanks, bk, I really appreciate your thoughtful responses to all of this. I don't want to go around thinking i'm that special snowflake that will make it into the top 30% and make awesome connections, even though I want to. I just know that I was lucky to get into wustl, not to mention getting any money, and I feel kind of silly passing that up for a school that has positives and negatives to it, but is closer to home, yet gives out scholarships that are essentially made to be taken away.
and yes, if I get in off the UCI waitlist, I still would get the 1/3rd tuition. I sent in a few LOCIs but I'm definitely not keeping my hopes up. As for the retake/reapply notion, I have definitely considered it, but I have personal family constraints which would make it really difficult for me. I also vastly out-performed my numbers (many people on here that know me can vouch for that). For the sake of this thread, I want to discuss the pro's and con's between these two options. I know retake/reapply is an option outside these two, but I was looking to see what people's opinion between these scenarios are (which you did/are doing an awesome job in comparing).

I guess I'm just totally stuck between taking the risk of 180k and staying here/enjoying my family's presence for these 3 years/hoping I get a good job out of here but knowing it will be in LA vs. spending 3 years away from everyone/taking on about 150k and hoping I do well enough to get myself back here from a really good school

:-/

[Curry]

[stowhat]

Someone in another thread (don't ask me where) emailed the Dean of Loyola and had an email from the Dean stating that roughly 40% of students renew their scholarship after the first year.

I saw a figure somewhere that 37% of Loyola's incoming class has merit based scholarships, all with the top 30% stipulation. If I did the math correctly, that means that even in the best of situations (ie the top 30% of the class was all scholarship students) about 20% of students with scholarships could not renew. FWIW, I'll be attending Loyola next year with the scholarship (and stipulation) but I'm fully aware that I could lose the scholarship (and plan to work my ass off to keep it).

[samfii]

Someone in another thread (don't ask me where) emailed the Dean of Loyola and had an email from the Dean stating that roughly 40% of students renew their scholarship after the first year.

I saw a figure somewhere that 37% of Loyola's incoming class has merit based scholarships, all with the top 30% stipulation. If I did the math correctly, that means that even in the best of situations (ie the top 30% of the class was all scholarship students) about 20% of students with scholarships could not renew. FWIW, I'll be attending Loyola next year with the scholarship (and stipulation) but I'm fully aware that I could lose the scholarship (and plan to work my ass off to keep it).

I spoke with the dean in person last week and I got that 40% figure as well. That doesn't sound too promising because, just as you plan to work your ass off for it, so do all those other people. I think it's practical to look at the total COA as you would if you were to lose your scholarship, since that is most likely going to be the case (which is where I got my original 180k figure from).

[Hannibal]

I think nobody can answer this question since we don't know how important staying in LA is to you. Personally, I'd take WUSTL in a heartbeat. I think the money is of roughly equivalent value, and WUSTL is better pretty much everywhere outside of LA, by a lot.

[stowhat]

Someone in another thread (don't ask me where) emailed the Dean of Loyola and had an email from the Dean stating that roughly 40% of students renew their scholarship after the first year.

I saw a figure somewhere that 37% of Loyola's incoming class has merit based scholarships, all with the top 30% stipulation. If I did the math correctly, that means that even in the best of situations (ie the top 30% of the class was all scholarship students) about 20% of students with scholarships could not renew. FWIW, I'll be attending Loyola next year with the scholarship (and stipulation) but I'm fully aware that I could lose the scholarship (and plan to work my ass off to keep it).

I spoke with the dean in person last week and I got that 40% figure as well. That doesn't sound too promising because, just as you plan to work your ass off for it, so do all those other people. I think it's practical to look at the total COA as you would if you were to lose your scholarship, since that is most likely going to be the case (which is where I got my original 180k figure from).

20% is only the best case scenario. 40% is frightening and I took that into consideration when choosing Loyola. My situtation is a bit different as I could probably commute from home for 2L/3L if I lose the scholarship. It would be an awful commute but the savings would make up for most of the lost scholarship.

[samfii]

thank you guys for your input, as always, TLSers are awesome <3 I think I'll be choosing wash u. I just have a good vibe from it and I feel like it's the right choice for me