Michigan v. Harvard Forum

[bedefan]

I know I know, "the answer is always Harvard." I'll decide in 24 more hours and am interested in hearing opinions from strangers on the internet I don't know. Procrastination I guess... Lots of projects kicking into high gear this week.

I've got full scholarship at UM and full tuition grant at HLS (seriously -- I guess I'm an unusually needy person?). I want to do PI, probably legal services, and would like to be well positioned to move into academia as a clinician a few years out of LS. I also want to be happy during LS -- this is extremely important as I can be pretty temperamental. I've been living in small Midwest towns the last 11 years, though I grew up in a major city... I greatly prefer town life to city life, and don't ever want to work in a city bigger than, say, Minneapolis.

I will never work BigLaw. Ever. I will flee the country before I try to get one of those jobs. Just not my thing.

[dr123]

Dude Harvard ... for free!?! How is this even a question? Harvard all the way

[bedefan]

Dude Harvard ... for free!?! How is this even a question? Harvard all the way

Actually there's the whole opportunity cost thing... But ignoring that and just looking at the COL loans I'll need to take out, I'll end up about 90k in the hole coming out of UM and about 190k in the hole coming out of HLS. I got kids.

[FlightoftheEarls]

Dude Harvard ... for free!?! How is this even a question? Harvard all the way

Actually there's the whole opportunity cost thing... But ignoring that and just looking at the COL loans I'll need to take out, I'll end up about 90k in the hole coming out of UM and about 190k in the hole coming out of HLS. I got kids.

Can you elaborate a bit more on the 100k difference? At first I was getting ready to kick my school in the balls on this one, but now I'm a bit more curious.

[dooood]

Dude get over your aversion to city life and go to Harvard for free

[bhan87]

Harvard Sticker > Michigan full ride. So that would make Harvard full tuition...

How is this even a question? If you want PI, Harvard will still be your best bet (for instance Harvard basically owns all the fed gov positions). Also, Michigan is not really known for being PI oriented like NYU or Berk... And, Harvard will leave a lot of other doors open (clerking, academia, etc).

[dpk711]

This is the stupidest question that I've ever seen on TLS.

[Helmholtz]

Harvard Sticker > Michigan full ride. So that would make Harvard full tuition...

Eh, it's not exactly crazy to turn down Harvard for the Darrow.

[bedefan]

Dude Harvard ... for free!?! How is this even a question? Harvard all the way

Actually there's the whole opportunity cost thing... But ignoring that and just looking at the COL loans I'll need to take out, I'll end up about 90k in the hole coming out of UM and about 190k in the hole coming out of HLS. I got kids.

Can you elaborate a bit more on the 100k difference? At first I was getting ready to kick my school in the balls on this one, but now I'm a bit more curious.

It's purely the cost difference of a 3 BR in Ann Arbor * 3 yrs compared to a 3 BR in Somerville * 3 yrs... Well, that as well as a... what is it... 19% increase in COL expenses across all other categories (food etc.) for Cambridge/Somerville compared to Ann Arbor.

[bedefan]

Harvard Sticker > Michigan full ride. So that would make Harvard full tuition...

Eh, it's not exactly crazy to turn down Harvard for the Darrow.

Say more about this.

[dooood]

Harvard Sticker > Michigan full ride. So that would make Harvard full tuition...

Eh, it's not exactly crazy to turn down Harvard for the Darrow.

Say more about this.

This is true, but IMO only when comparing Darrow to a little $$ at H. With a full ride at Harvard, this should be a crazy easy decision

[FlightoftheEarls]

Harvard Sticker > Michigan full ride. So that would make Harvard full tuition...

Eh, it's not exactly crazy to turn down Harvard for the Darrow.

Say more about this.

This is true, but IMO only when comparing Darrow to a little $$ at H. With a full ride at Harvard, this should be a crazy easy decision

Are you skimming over the 100k price difference OP is mentioning? Not saying that this makes Michigan the right call, but it's not an apples to apples full-ride comparison.

[Helmholtz]

Harvard Sticker > Michigan full ride. So that would make Harvard full tuition...

Eh, it's not exactly crazy to turn down Harvard for the Darrow.

Say more about this.

I don't have much to say other than the fact that a lot of people who come to Michigan with the Darrow also got into Harvard, although I'm assuming they were looking at full sticker there. There was somebody on here a couple years back who went to Michigan with $67k over Harvard for sticker because she loved UofM and hated the student culture at HLS. People make a lot of different decisions for a lot of different reasons - on TLS, the reason is usually "zomg it's Harvard" as they simultaneously jizz in their pants. Would I go to HLS in your situation? Probably. But it sounds like what you want out of life is drastically different than the average TLSer.

[rundoxierun]

Dude Harvard ... for free!?! How is this even a question? Harvard all the way

Actually there's the whole opportunity cost thing... But ignoring that and just looking at the COL loans I'll need to take out, I'll end up about 90k in the hole coming out of UM and about 190k in the hole coming out of HLS. I got kids.

Can you elaborate a bit more on the 100k difference? At first I was getting ready to kick my school in the balls on this one, but now I'm a bit more curious.

It's purely the cost difference of a 3 BR in Ann Arbor * 3 yrs compared to a 3 BR in Somerville * 3 yrs... Well, that as well as a... what is it... 19% increase in COL expenses across all other categories (food etc.) for Cambridge/Somerville compared to Ann Arbor.

You are calculating COL in cambridge at $63k/yr?? Even with kids that is wayyyy off. Your total COL over 3 yrs should be something a little over or in the 105-135k range in Cambridge unless you are leaving something major out.

ETA: I was seriously considering taking the Darrow over HLS at one point. So much so that I actually looked at places to live in Ann Arbor. It wasnt all that cheap.

[bedefan]

You are calculating COL in cambridge at $63k/yr?? Even with kids that is wayyyy off. Your total COL over 3 yrs should be something a little in the 105-115k range in Cambridge unless you are leaving something major out.

Insurance alone is well over 7k per year when you have kids... Average 3 BR = $2300/mo. * 36 = $82800. (again, kids.) So rent + insurance is over 100k. Then there's food, car expenses (again, kids), etc. etc.

[rundoxierun]

You are calculating COL in cambridge at $63k/yr?? Even with kids that is wayyyy off. Your total COL over 3 yrs should be something a little in the 105-115k range in Cambridge unless you are leaving something major out.

Insurance alone is well over 7k per year when you have kids... Average 3 BR = $2300/mo. * 36 = $82800. (again, kids.) So rent + insurance is over 100k. Then there's food, car expenses (again, kids), etc. etc.

That 2300/month should be including utilities (or else you are better off in HRES housing) so 100k for all of that. Even if rent at Michigan is 500-600 cheaper that still only brings a cost difference in the 20k range over 3 years. No way possible other expenses are going to add up to an 80k additional difference in just 3 years. Im sure you are probably making comparisons based on some online COL calculator. Those things are often way off. Again, unless you are leaving something absolutely huge out, no way the difference is 100k from COL alone.

[bedefan]

Harvard Sticker > Michigan full ride. So that would make Harvard full tuition...

Eh, it's not exactly crazy to turn down Harvard for the Darrow.

Say more about this.

I don't have much to say other than the fact that a lot of people who come to Michigan with the Darrow also got into Harvard, although I'm assuming they were looking at full sticker there. There was somebody on here a couple years back who went to Michigan with $67k over Harvard for sticker because she loved UofM and hated the student culture at HLS. People make a lot of different decisions for a lot of different reasons - on TLS, the reason is usually "zomg it's Harvard" as they simultaneously jizz in their pants. Would I go to HLS in your situation? Probably. But it sounds like what you want out of life is drastically different than the average TLSer.

What a sane answer. Thanks. I really love Michigan but am still leaning slightly toward HLS at this point and will probably pick it unless I suddenly come up with a more concrete reason to go with UM. For me the big pluses at HLS are actually that I'd get way more access to clinics than at Michigan and that Harvard's LIPP program is way more flexible than UM's LRAP... For instance I'd be kicked out of UM's LRAP if I took a tenure track job as a clinician at a law school.

[stylishlaw]

LOL FULL RIDE AT HARVARD

And you're reconsidering?

WTFFFFFFFFF

[bedefan]

You are calculating COL in cambridge at $63k/yr?? Even with kids that is wayyyy off. Your total COL over 3 yrs should be something a little in the 105-115k range in Cambridge unless you are leaving something major out.

Insurance alone is well over 7k per year when you have kids... Average 3 BR = $2300/mo. * 36 = $82800. (again, kids.) So rent + insurance is over 100k. Then there's food, car expenses (again, kids), etc. etc.

That 2300/month should be including utilities (or else you are better off in HRES housing) so 100k for all of that. Even if rent at Michigan is 500-600 cheaper that still only brings a cost difference in the 20k range over 3 years. No way possible other expenses are going to add up to an 80k additional difference in just 3 years. Im sure you are probably making comparisons based on some online COL calculator. Those things are often way off. Again, unless you are leaving something absolutely huge out, no way the difference is 100k from COL alone.

Actually the average HRES price for a 3 BR is about 2700/mo. Plus parking = 2930/mo.

And yes, 2300 does include utilities. It's actually a pretty optimistic estimate considering that I'd need to rent a certified de-leaded place, and these are not easy to find and tend to be a bit more expensive. Anyway rent + util. in Ann Arbor comes to about $900/mo. cheaper.

And I did use a COL calc, which might be off... So I cut the difference it suggested by about a third. I'm trying to be reasonably cautious here.

ETA: I appreciate the reminders tho. Admittedly I'm being a little optimistic about costs at UM and a little pessimistic about costs at HLS. Partly because UM is a bit stingy about adjusting their student budget for people with kids, and HLS is a bit overgenerous... So I have room in the budget to be pessimistic at HLS. Which, actually, is a significant advantage HLS has over UM.

[bedefan]

OK TLS, thanks for the input. It's all duly noted. Heading to bed now... Might post Thursday and let you know what the decision was.

[glitched]

I know I know, "the answer is always Harvard." I'll decide in 24 more hours and am interested in hearing opinions from strangers on the internet I don't know. Procrastination I guess... Lots of projects kicking into high gear this week.

I've got full scholarship at UM and full tuition grant at HLS (seriously -- I guess I'm an unusually needy person?). I want to do PI, probably legal services, and would like to be well positioned to move into academia as a clinician a few years out of LS. I also want to be happy during LS -- this is extremely important as I can be pretty temperamental. I've been living in small Midwest towns the last 11 years, though I grew up in a major city... I greatly prefer town life to city life, and don't ever want to work in a city bigger than, say, Minneapolis.

I will never work BigLaw. Ever. I will flee the country before I try to get one of those jobs. Just not my thing.

[bedefan]

So I chose Harvard...

... as the Emperor had foreseen...