How much scholly $ is enough to justify a T1 but non-T14? Forum

[quixotical]

Hi all,

I have been offered 22k a year for all three years at Minnesota with a 2.5 GPA stip (and my understanding is that even if your GPA falls below 2.5, the school would work with you to help you keep it). However, even with this (seemingly) generous scholarship offer of slightly over half tuition, the total cost of attendance would be about 95k.

From what I've read, the general wisdom on TLS is either T14 or $$$ at T1/at least in-state at T1. Minnesota is a solid T20 (it has been ranked pretty consistently between 19-23 and is currently #20). Minnesota is the best ranked school I got into and also gave me the best scholarship. So, my question is this: Is Minnesota's strong regional/moderately strong national reputation, combined with their 66k scholarship offer, a good investment, or is the 95k COA still too much to justify attending a non-T14 school?

Additional Information:

-I am not "dead set" on any particular field of law. I'm interested in human rights, and would probably prefer to do public interest and Minnesota has a decent LRAP and a human rights clinic. If I did end up in the top of my class I might be tempted by Biglaw.

-I have 19k in student loans from undergrad (a T1 private school).

-Geographically I would prefer the midwest/northwest (I like seasons and don't mind cold) but have no desire to live in a really huge city (like Chicago or NYC).

-My in-state schools are low T1 and I have no desire to live in or near my home state, hence no in-state tuition.

-Retaking the LSAT doesn't seem feasible. I have to be in school to delay paying off my undergrad loans-- I have a worthless UG degree, so no possibility of employment beyond minimum wage paying jobs. I also don't think I would do better on a retake-- I actually scored higher on the LSAT than I did on my practice tests, and I can honestly say I put in the time and effort the first time around.

-If I don't go to law school, I'll end up taking out loans for grad school so I can do the only thing I can with my worthless UG degree-- teach by day and write the next best American novel by night.

I'm a long-time lurker and, although I've read through many threads and searched the forum, I still find myself in need of advice for my particular situation. Thanks in advance for any input.

[09042014]

Hi all,

I have been offered 22k a year for all three years at Minnesota with a 2.5 GPA stip (and my understanding is that even if your GPA falls below 2.5, the school would work with you to help you keep it). However, even with this (seemingly) generous scholarship offer of slightly over half tuition, the total cost of attendance would be about 95k.

From what I've read, the general wisdom on TLS is either T14 or $$$ at T1/at least in-state at T1. Minnesota is a solid T20 (it has been ranked pretty consistently between 19-23 and is currently #20). Minnesota is the best ranked school I got into and also gave me the best scholarship. So, my question is this: Is Minnesota's strong regional/moderately strong national reputation, combined with their 66k scholarship offer, a good investment, or is the 95k COA still too much to justify attending a non-T14 school?

Additional Information:

-I am not "dead set" on any particular field of law. I'm interested in human rights, and would probably prefer to do public interest and Minnesota has a decent LRAP and a human rights clinic. If I did end up in the top of my class I might be tempted by Biglaw.

-I have 19k in student loans from undergrad (a T1 private school).

-Geographically I would prefer the midwest/northwest (I like seasons and don't mind cold) but have no desire to live in a really huge city (like Chicago or NYC).

-My in-state schools are low T1 and I have no desire to live in or near my home state, hence no in-state tuition.

-Retaking the LSAT doesn't seem feasible. I have to be in school to delay paying off my undergrad loans-- I have a worthless UG degree, so no possibility of employment beyond minimum wage paying jobs. I also don't think I would do better on a retake-- I actually scored higher on the LSAT than I did on my practice tests, and I can honestly say I put in the time and effort the first time around.

-If I don't go to law school, I'll end up taking out loans for grad school so I can do the only thing I can with my worthless UG degree-- teach by day and write the next best American novel by night.

I'm a long-time lurker and, although I've read through many threads and searched the forum, I still find myself in need of advice for my particular situation. Thanks in advance for any input.

95k is on the high side of acceptable for a school like Minnesota. But it's probably not the worst choice.

Your "have to be in school to avoid debt" idea is fucking retarded. If you can't figure out how to service 20K in debt, no way will you figure out how to do 115K in debt.

If that 19K is federal loans, they have forbearance and IBR. Shit I had that much and my payments were like 120 bucks a month. That shouldn't be impossible to do.

Going to law school because you have nothing else to do will fuck you over. Especially since you are afraid of 20K in debt. Your solution is 115K more?

A Minnesota degree with middling grades isn't going to get you a job easily. You'll have to fight for one. And you are proving you can't do that.

Take a couple years off. If you still want to do law, you can reapply, maybe even retake if you feel up to it.

[quixotical]

95k is on the high side of acceptable for a school like Minnesota. But it's probably not the worst choice.

Your "have to be in school to avoid debt" idea is fucking retarded. If you can't figure out how to service 20K in debt, no way will you figure out how to do 115K in debt.

If that 19K is federal loans, they have forbearance and IBR. Shit I had that much and my payments were like 120 bucks a month. That shouldn't be impossible to do.

Going to law school because you have nothing else to do will fuck you over. Especially since you are afraid of 20K in debt. Your solution is 115K more?

A Minnesota degree with middling grades isn't going to get you a job easily. You'll have to fight for one. And you are proving you can't do that.

Take a couple years off. If you still want to do law, you can reapply, maybe even retake if you feel up to it.

Thanks for your well-intentioned feedback and your opinion on whether Minnesota is "worth it" at 95k. If I'm understanding you correctly, you think 95k is acceptable, though obviously not ideal?

I can see why you'd think my reasoning re: my current debt looks "fucking retarded" but you don't know the particulars of my situation. I live in an area that has been particularly hard-hit by the recession and my UG degree (Creative Writing) is not going to get me any job offers. In the town I live in, even minimum-wage paying jobs are difficult to come by-- most places are going out of business. I have already been out of UG for a year (only found work seasonal part-time, which will end soon) and the loan forbearance periods are up in July. 3k is in federal loans, the rest isn't. So either way I'll have to get some kind of higher degree; law is something I have wanted to do for a very long time, and something I have invested in. It's not a whim, although I can see why some on TLS might think my reluctance to retake the LSAT makes it appear as though I'm not taking it seriously. Please take it on faith that I am.

[XxSpyKEx]

my UG degree (Creative Writing)

LMFAO. WTF were you thinking? Why did you even bother to go to college? You would have been better off just working at McDonalds for 4 years than getting a degree in creative writing. (I mean let's be real here, you're in the same place you were before you went to college and you burned up 4 years.) Luckily there's the law school solution to your crappy UG degree where you can stack up a mortgage size nondischargable debt in exchange for no tangible assets and a cunt hair chance at making an awfully nice looking salary for a creative writing major. Well, if nothing else, you'll be able to hold on to that flashy brochure that tells you the school's median salary is $160k /year in exchange for all the debt.

Anyways, to actually answer your question, Minnesota is not worth $95k. That's a shitload of debt for that school ITE. Go to a t14 or get a larger scholly from Minnesota.

[3ThrowAway99]

Hi all,

I have been offered 22k a year for all three years at Minnesota with a 2.5 GPA stip (and my understanding is that even if your GPA falls below 2.5, the school would work with you to help you keep it). However, even with this (seemingly) generous scholarship offer of slightly over half tuition, the total cost of attendance would be about 95k.

From what I've read, the general wisdom on TLS is either T14 or $$$ at T1/at least in-state at T1. Minnesota is a solid T20 (it has been ranked pretty consistently between 19-23 and is currently #20). Minnesota is the best ranked school I got into and also gave me the best scholarship. So, my question is this: Is Minnesota's strong regional/moderately strong national reputation, combined with their 66k scholarship offer, a good investment, or is the 95k COA still too much to justify attending a non-T14 school?

Additional Information:

-I am not "dead set" on any particular field of law. I'm interested in human rights, and would probably prefer to do public interest and Minnesota has a decent LRAP and a human rights clinic. If I did end up in the top of my class I might be tempted by Biglaw.

-I have 19k in student loans from undergrad (a T1 private school).

-Geographically I would prefer the midwest/northwest (I like seasons and don't mind cold) but have no desire to live in a really huge city (like Chicago or NYC).

-My in-state schools are low T1 and I have no desire to live in or near my home state, hence no in-state tuition.

-Retaking the LSAT doesn't seem feasible. I have to be in school to delay paying off my undergrad loans-- I have a worthless UG degree, so no possibility of employment beyond minimum wage paying jobs. I also don't think I would do better on a retake-- I actually scored higher on the LSAT than I did on my practice tests, and I can honestly say I put in the time and effort the first time around.

-If I don't go to law school, I'll end up taking out loans for grad school so I can do the only thing I can with my worthless UG degree-- teach by day and write the next best American novel by night.

I'm a long-time lurker and, although I've read through many threads and searched the forum, I still find myself in need of advice for my particular situation. Thanks in advance for any input.

I think if you wouldn't mind living in MN/ Minneapolis (which it sounds like you wouldn't) it definitely could be well worth it. UMN is a very, very strong regional school (with some ability to place into other markets). But I would do some soul-searching to make sure law is what you want. Also, if your heart is really set on T14 (and you want to have a better chance at mobility after graduation) then you might want to further consider waiting another year and retaking. I really think it is a hard sell though for ppl to argue that MN with money is a categorically bad idea.

[Hannibal]

my UG degree (Creative Writing)

LMFAO. WTF were you thinking? Why did you even bother to go to college? You would have been better off just working at McDonalds for 4 years than getting a degree in creative writing. (I mean let's be real here, you're in the same place you were before you went to college and you burned up 4 years.) Luckily there's the law school solution to your crappy UG degree where you can stack up a mortgage size nondischargable debt in exchange for no tangible assets and a cunt hair chance at making an awfully nice looking salary for a creative writing major. Well, if nothing else, you'll be able to hold on to that flashy brochure that tells you the school's median salary is $160k /year in exchange for all the debt.

Anyways, to actually answer your question, Minnesota is not worth $95k. That's a shitload of debt for that school ITE. Go to a t14 or get a larger scholly from Minnesota.

Some people pursue their passions in life.

Film at 11.

[porgie]

my UG degree (Creative Writing)

LMFAO. WTF were you thinking? Why did you even bother to go to college? You would have been better off just working at McDonalds for 4 years than getting a degree in creative writing. (I mean let's be real here, you're in the same place you were before you went to college and you burned up 4 years.) Luckily there's the law school solution to your crappy UG degree where you can stack up a mortgage size nondischargable debt in exchange for no tangible assets and a cunt hair chance at making an awfully nice looking salary for a creative writing major. Well, if nothing else, you'll be able to hold on to that flashy brochure that tells you the school's median salary is $160k /year in exchange for all the debt.

Anyways, to actually answer your question, Minnesota is not worth $95k. That's a shitload of debt for that school ITE. Go to a t14 or get a larger scholly from Minnesota.

Some people pursue their passions in life.

Film at 11.

And then, like the OP, give up on them after approximately 1 year in the real world. Passions are fine for your spare time or if you're really willing to figure out a way to turn them into a career. Unfortunately for the OP, all they did was lead him to the unemployment line.

[Zabini]

I fail to see the utility in bashing the OP for his undergrad major at this point.

OP: I'm inclined to say go for it. I may be a touch biased because my aunt went to UMN and is now doing quite well (she works in-house for a big i-bank) but its certainly a very strong regional school in a low CoL market at a steep discount. Also, given the info you laid out, it sounds like this is as good as law school offers are gonna get for you, so if law truly is your passion, looks like now's the time to pursue it.

[rose711]

I fail to see the utility in bashing the OP for his undergrad major at this point.

OP: I'm inclined to say go for it. I may be a touch biased because my aunt went to UMN and is now doing quite well (she works in-house for a big i-bank) but its certainly a very strong regional school in a low CoL market at a steep discount. Also, given the info you laid out, it sounds like this is as good as law school offers are gonna get for you, so if law truly is your passion, looks like now's the time to pursue it.

I agree that putting down OP for his choice of undergrad major is a waste of time and not helpful to OP. I'm sure there are many people in this forum who have majors that they find are impractical for finding work, so they decided to go to law school or graduate school.

My concern with OP is that his post reflects mostly concern with paying back a small amount of debt rather than an overwhelming determination to be a lawyer. It isn't just that you won't retake - it is that you are worried about debt so you are deciding to take on more debt.

OP, have you thought of moving to another city -- possibly even Minneapolis,because you are considering school there-- instead of living where you are? Have you thought about being a paralegal or (working somewhere else) in order to learn about what being a lawyer is like? Moving for school is not the only reason people move from places where there is no work.


I think there are threads on this forum about people in and from Minnesota. I think there is one where a partner is taking questions about the market in Minnesota. You might consider posting in that thread or PMing some of the posters here and ask them about the law market in Minnesota.

I am on the fence as to what the bottom line to advise you here - I think that you are going to a regionally solid school, you don't have to be Top 14 to work as a lawyer and pay back loans, - but I'm not convinced that you are ready for law school or really want law school. I guess, on balance, you should go for it.

[socraticmethodman]

OP-If you actually want to be a lawyer and don't mind living/working in Minnesota, then I say go.

[Moxie]

I fail to see the utility in bashing the OP for his undergrad major at this point.

OP: I'm inclined to say go for it. I may be a touch biased because my aunt went to UMN and is now doing quite well (she works in-house for a big i-bank) but its certainly a very strong regional school in a low CoL market at a steep discount. Also, given the info you laid out, it sounds like this is as good as law school offers are gonna get for you, so if law truly is your passion, looks like now's the time to pursue it.

Leave OP alone, he's not the first nor the last person to major he was passionate about at the expense of career. From what I can determine of the OP's situation, UMN at 95k in debt wouldn't be a terrible decision, and I think it would be better than T14 at sticker for his goals.

[jplayer]

This is a great question because it is in the gray area. Half-ride scholly from the 20th ranked school, a highly regarded regional. My reaction is: if you say no to this, how much do you really want to be a lawyer?

Desert Fox can be rough on people, but his response showed why I think he is the best poster on TLS right now. He got right to the issue of how much the OP wants to go to law school.

This is the key factor for people with good deals just outside the T-14, I think. To the OP: if you feel that fire in the belly for being a lawyer then you already know the answer. If you are on the fence, you also probably know the answer. As DF said, it will be a matter of who wants it more.

BTW OP, I also got a half-ride from UMN and will be attending unless SMU gives me a sweet deal (hope fading by the day). Probably see you in late August.

[BarbellDreams]

Its not a terrible choice as long as you understand there is a 95% chance you're staying in MN to work post grad. UMN is a very solid school in it's secondary market and 100k, while isn't great by any means, isn't the end of the world coming from that school.

[thexfactor]

it isn't the worst option in the world. Depending on what other schools you got into, i might choose vandy,usc,ucla at sticker over half at Minn. Minn's biglaw placement is pretty low, around 15% or so. While vandy usc, ucla is all around 30% or more. I might also consider bc/bu with less money over minn.

However, make sure you really want to be a lawyer. You make it sound like it s just an "option" so you can get out of paying your UG debt.

If you are just looking for a career, check out Master of Accounting programs. USC, Michshitgan and Texas. I know accounting is boring, but you can actually get a job in that field and can make a decent income.
You can also check out Caribbean med schools. Some schools have 5 year programs that will allow you to take the sci prereqs and med classes together. Pretty easy to get a residency program after you pass the us boards.

[quixotical]

Hi all,

Thanks for all your input! I really appreciate it.

Re: My stupid decision to major in Creative Writing: I got a hefty scholarship offer from a very well regarded private undergrad and my parents picked up most other expenses (minus 19k in loans) so I decided to get a degree in English- Creative Writing track. So technically my BA is in English, as opposed to English Lit. Still, I don't see much difference in terms of employability with a BA in English Lit or BA in English/Creative Writing, as they both show up as simply "English."

To answer other questions about whether I really want to be a lawyer: I worked in a law-firm full-time as a paralegal during a summer in undergrad. I was also pre-law track at my undergrad and took classes like Logic & Law, Philosophy of Law, and Human Rights courses. So yes, law school was my original plan, which is why I felt I could justify pursuing one of my passions (creative writing) knowing I was going into law school. My emphasis on debt was my attempt to preemptively answer some questions I thought were likely to come up since I've seen a lot of TLS posts about "soul-crushing debt" and I wanted to paint as accurate a picture as possible.

Again, thanks to all very much. With the exception of one poster, everyone else seems to agree that given my goals and geographic preferences, a 22k/year scholly at Minnesota is a relatively good deal for a T20 school?

And a question in general: How much scholarship money would make a T1, non-T14 tempting to you? 1/4 scholly, 1/2 scholly, 3/4 scholly, or full-ride or bust?

[Hannibal]

That depends a lot on the school. I think any T1 with a full ride is good if you want the region, but it gets murkier once you hit 3/4 ride or so.

[HeavenWood]

my UG degree (Creative Writing)

LMFAO. WTF were you thinking? Why did you even bother to go to college? You would have been better off just working at McDonalds for 4 years than getting a degree in creative writing. (I mean let's be real here, you're in the same place you were before you went to college and you burned up 4 years.) Luckily there's the law school solution to your crappy UG degree where you can stack up a mortgage size nondischargable debt in exchange for no tangible assets and a cunt hair chance at making an awfully nice looking salary for a creative writing major. Well, if nothing else, you'll be able to hold on to that flashy brochure that tells you the school's median salary is $160k /year in exchange for all the debt.

Anyways, to actually answer your question, Minnesota is not worth $95k. That's a shitload of debt for that school ITE. Go to a t14 or get a larger scholly from Minnesota.

I'll be the first to admit that employment options for creative writing majors generally suck, but it isn't a useless major either. If you focus on a field like creative nonfiction, and are willing to put in some work, you can become a damn good reader and writer by the end of your college career. That being said, unless you're 100% sure you want to go for an MFA and teach, it's a better idea to pair creative writing with another (preferably, more employable) major.

[ThomasMN]

Knowing quite a few grads from the U MN, you are not forced to work in Minnesota. There are grads in Chicago, New York, and a few other markets. However, your best chances are in Minnesota.

That being said, the U - as Minnesotans refer to it - is actually the smallest law school in Minnesota at the moment if I am correct. If you decided to work in Minnesota, 95k of debt will not hold you down. Even only making 80k-90k a year in the Twin Cities is actually pretty good money as the cost of living here is much lower than most big cities. To say that you are "doomed" going to the U with a half scholarship is just a bit out of touch with reality. You also have to realize that the legal market in the Twin Cities has been steadily improving since 2008, and barring another major economic downturn, which would affect all of us regardless of career path, the job market in the TC should be pretty good coming out of the U in 3 years.

That and you can easily get by with less money for cost of living then they budget at the U. Everyone I know going to LS in the cities has had substantial money leftover after borrowing for living expenses.

[quixotical]

That depends a lot on the school. I think any T1 with a full ride is good if you want the region, but it gets murkier once you hit 3/4 ride or so.

Interesting... does the school's standing within the T1 make a difference as to how "good" the scholarship seems? For example, if schools A and B are both in the region you want to practice in, but school A is ranked 20 and offers you 1/2 scholly, and school B is ranked 40 and offers you 3/4, would you feel the difference in rankings justifies taking the smaller scholly at school A?

In general, is half-tuition the cutoff for what one could define as a "substantial" scholarship?

[Hannibal]

That depends a lot on the school. I think any T1 with a full ride is good if you want the region, but it gets murkier once you hit 3/4 ride or so.

Interesting... does the school's standing within the T1 make a difference as to how "good" the scholarship seems? For example, if schools A and B are both in the region you want to practice in, but school A is ranked 20 and offers you 1/2 scholly, and school B is ranked 40 and offers you 3/4, would you feel the difference in rankings justifies taking the smaller scholly at school A?

In general, is half-tuition the cutoff for what one could define as a "substantial" scholarship?

Well to put this in real terms, if GMU offered me 3/4 and GW offered me 1/2 I'd take GW. Yes it does matter, but because of the employment not the US ranking.

And of course all of this assumes you like the campuses and such equally.

[ThomasMN]

You know, people go crazy about the amount of money that you have to borrow to get an education in the states, but the fact is that you have to borrow for almost any kind of education. $100,000 in student debt leads to payments under a grand a month. A salary of 60,000 dollars a year covers that kind of loan payment easily in a place like Minnesota.

I would argue this: if a full-ride at a ttt is not worth it, a half scholly at a strong regional school ranked in the t30 is not worth it, then paying sticker at anything other than HYS is also basically not worth it. Lots of associates never last long enough in a big firm to make 160k a year continuously. There are no guarantees of crazy paychecks just because you went to MVP etc.

If going to LS is just your quest to a meal ticket, it probably is not the right line of work for you. That being said, people should really stop conflating ttt diploma mills with the t30. All these hater blogs about school debt and law school tend to be people who are so angry about attending their local version of Cooley or graduating in the bottom 10% of their law school that they feel like bashing every law school.

If you have always wanted to be a lawyer and its what you are passionate about doing it, do it. If life was just about a pay check we would all be actuarial science majors.

[ThomasMN]

That depends a lot on the school. I think any T1 with a full ride is good if you want the region, but it gets murkier once you hit 3/4 ride or so.

Interesting... does the school's standing within the T1 make a difference as to how "good" the scholarship seems? For example, if schools A and B are both in the region you want to practice in, but school A is ranked 20 and offers you 1/2 scholly, and school B is ranked 40 and offers you 3/4, would you feel the difference in rankings justifies taking the smaller scholly at school A?

In general, is half-tuition the cutoff for what one could define as a "substantial" scholarship?

Well to put this in real terms, if GMU offered me 3/4 and GW offered me 1/2 I'd take GW. Yes it does matter, but because of the employment not the US ranking.

And of course all of this assumes you like the campuses and such equally.

That sounds like bad "math." GMU at 3/4 ride over three years is about $26k ( not including cost of living, which would honestly be cheaper at GMU compared to GW). GW is approximately $69K over three years ( just for tuition). From what I can tell GW also has higher fees etc.

69K is about 2.7 times more expensive than GMU. Is a degree from GW worth 3 times as much as a degree from GMU?

[Wholigan]

That sounds like bad "math." GMU at 3/4 ride over three years is about $26k ( not including cost of living, which would honestly be cheaper at GMU compared to GW). GW is approximately $69K over three years ( just for tuition). From what I can tell GW also has higher fees etc.

69K is about 2.7 times more expensive than GMU. Is a degree from GW worth 3 times as much as a degree from GMU?

Actually, it's your math that's bad. If one degree costs $10 for the entire process of getting a JD, and the other cost $30, would the one that cost $30 have to be worth triple the other? No, it would only have to be worth $20 more than the other one.

So assuming your calculations are correct, a GW degree doesn't have to be worth 3x what a GMU degree is for the extra $43k. Its present value only has to be $43k greater. So even if the present value of your projected lifetime earnings from GW is $1.8 Million, and from GMU it's $1.7 Million, GW is still "worth it."

[Ersatz Haderach]

I think it's fine if you like Minnesota and that region. Good ranking, good school. Live frugally and you'll be okay. You could consider going to a lower T1/high T2 if there's a particular market you want to work in. Minnesota is T20, it's not gonna hurt you. Enjoy winter.

[ThomasMN]

That sounds like bad "math." GMU at 3/4 ride over three years is about $26k ( not including cost of living, which would honestly be cheaper at GMU compared to GW). GW is approximately $69K over three years ( just for tuition). From what I can tell GW also has higher fees etc.

69K is about 2.7 times more expensive than GMU. Is a degree from GW worth 3 times as much as a degree from GMU?

Actually, it's your math that's bad. If one degree costs $10 for the entire process of getting a JD, and the other cost $30, would the one that cost $30 have to be worth triple the other? No, it would only have to be worth $20 more than the other one.

So assuming your calculations are correct, a GW degree doesn't have to be worth 3x what a GMU degree is for the extra $43k. Its present value only has to be $43k greater. So even if the present value of your projected lifetime earnings from GW is $1.8 Million, and from GMU it's $1.7 Million, GW is still "worth it."

My bad in the language department, what I was trying to get across is that is if a GW degree worth paying three times as much for compared to a degree from GMU.

That and its not just making $43k more over a lifetime, you also have to calculate your interest on said debt. It really starts stacking up.

What I was really trying to say is that stating the difference between 1/2 ride or 3/4 ride is not very descriptive when you are talking about two different schools that are in two completely different price brackets, which GMU and GW are.