Washington University in St. Louis (WUSTL) vs William & Mary Forum

[lola_ny]

Need your help TLS. I've narrowed my choices* down to WUSTL and William & Mary. With scholarships, the COA is nearly the same between the two schools. Given the ranking difference, I'm leaning towards WUSTL but want to get more feedback from you all.

Here's more background: my preference is to do something business law/international development related. I'm considering joining the foreign service in the future. I might also want to return to the non-profit sector where I've worked for 4 years (at the moment I want out, hence the strong preference for business law.) I've lived in both NYC and DC, and would prefer to work/live in one of these cities; any major city is fine though (ie. Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) Preference is really for the Northeast, and this is where my anxiety with WUSTL comes through.

Received $25/k year at WUSTL and $10k/year at W&M.


*Also held/waitlisted at Cornell, Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Emory. If I should fight like hell to get admitted into one of these options, likely at sticker, let me know.

**In case anyone is wondering, the only schools I applied to in NYC and DC were Cardozo and American. In the beginning of my cycle I thought it would be better to concentrate on great schools that weren't located in major cities for cost reasons. In hindsight this might have been a terrible idea, but I don't think I would have been happy at Fordham or GW, hate Boston, didn't like Cardozo, and got more $$ from schools ranked higher than American so the cost wasn't justified.

[buckilaw]

Neither places great in the Northeast. BU or BC would be a better option if you could get a scholarhship. If you are set on W&M or WUSTL I would take WUSTL for the better job prospects.

[lola_ny]

Neither places great in the Northeast. BU or BC would be a better option if you could get a scholarhship. If you are set on W&M or WUSTL I would take WUSTL for the better job prospects.

Thanks for your comments buckilaw.

[Muenchen]

Higher ranked school + more scholarship money = obvious choice

[meryl]

I applied to both as well and found Wash U to have much better international program.

[romothesavior]

Come join us in St. Louis and do the WUSTL.

PM me if you have any specific questions.

[bk1]

Your post seems very confusing. So let me get this straight:

1. You prefer the Northeast.
2. You like big cities (specifically NYC/DC but any will do).

Now here is where things don't make sense to me...

3. You hate Boston (how can you like big cities and the Northeast and hate Boston?).
4. You don't think you'd be happy at GW/Fordham (how can you prefer NYC/DC and be unhappy at these schools?)

I really don't get it.

[Flips88]

Why haven't you negotiated up W&M's offer using the WUSTL offer as leverage? I got $12k/yr initially at W&M and they bumped it up to match my Vandy offer, which doesn't help much in my case, but if you're choosing between the two, I have to think W&M can bump yours up significantly.

[lola_ny]

Why haven't you negotiated up W&M's offer using the WUSTL offer as leverage? I got $12k/yr initially at W&M and they bumped it up to match my Vandy offer, which doesn't help much in my case, but if you're choosing between the two, I have to think W&M can bump yours up significantly.

I thought about this but assumed that it would be difficult given W&M's low cost of attendance.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

"my preference is to do something business law/international development related."

So you are looking at WUSTL and W&M? These are not well known school at placing in business law. Additionally, your indication of international work implies biglaw or bigGov, both of which WUSTL and W&M are horrendous at placing students.

"I've lived in both NYC and DC, and would prefer to work/live in one of these cities; any major city is fine though (ie. Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) Preference is really for the Northeast, and this is where my anxiety with WUSTL comes through."

You like and want to work in NYC and DC, but don't want Fordham or GW? These are the best schools for placement in the respective cities. BC and BU would also be good applications as they place well in NYC and DC.

If you want a big city, why are you applying to a school in Missouri and a school in...wherever the heck W&M is located. This doesn't make any sense.

My advice:
Reapply. See if you can get $ from BC, BU, Fordham or GW. Go to whichever school you like the best.

[Hannibal]

Yeah, W&M doesn't negotiate.

More scholarship money doesn't mean as much since W&M's tuition is like 12k less per year.

Anyway, I vote WUSTL since it's in a bigish city. But ask yourself if you'd rather have the midwest or south, because you may not get it from either school.

[Flips88]

Why haven't you negotiated up W&M's offer using the WUSTL offer as leverage? I got $12k/yr initially at W&M and they bumped it up to match my Vandy offer, which doesn't help much in my case, but if you're choosing between the two, I have to think W&M can bump yours up significantly.

I thought about this but assumed that it would be difficult given W&M's low cost of attendance.

Assuming you're out of state at both:

$25k @ WUSTL = 58% of tuition
$10k @ W&M = 28% of tuition

Send them an email saying you have an offer at Wash U that covers nearly 60% of tuition, while your offer at W&M covers under 1/3rd and say you won't consider attending unless they raise your scholarship offer. It worked for me for W&M and Vandy even though Vandy cost $50k more.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

Yeah, W&M doesn't negotiate.

More scholarship money doesn't mean as much since W&M's tuition is like 12k less per year.

Anyway, I vote WUSTL since it's in a bigish city. But ask yourself if you'd rather have the midwest or south, because you may not get it from either school.

Did you just call St. Louis big? lol.

[Aberzombie1892]

Neither will really get you NYC or DC without high grades, connections with individuals, or ties.

If you want to be in VA, William and Mary

If you want to be in the midwest, WashU.

Honestly, I would assume that WashU would be better at getting you back to where you have ties to than W&M. But that's just my opinion.

[lola_ny]

Your post seems very confusing. So let me get this straight:

1. You prefer the Northeast.
2. You like big cities (specifically NYC/DC but any will do).

Now here is where things don't make sense to me...

3. You hate Boston (how can you like big cities and the Northeast and hate Boston?).
4. You don't think you'd be happy at GW/Fordham (how can you prefer NYC/DC and be unhappy at these schools?)

I really don't get it.

3. I went to school in Boston and didn't like it, at all. I don't consider it to be a big city, find it to be conservative and not the most appealing to me as a minority...I also don't like the Red Sox

4. My undergrad was large, and I *think* I would prefer to attend a law school with a smaller class size, that hopefully pays more attention to its students and where you can build stronger relationships with professors

Make sense?

[jpSartre]

Yeah, W&M doesn't negotiate.

Yes they do, I got a scholly increase from them by asking.

[Hannibal]

Yeah, W&M doesn't negotiate.

Yes they do, I got a scholly increase from them by asking.

Those jerks. They didn't increase it for anyone I knew in the W&M thread or me. I thought the rejection email sounded like they don't do it.

[Flips88]

Yeah, W&M doesn't negotiate.

Yes they do, I got a scholly increase from them by asking.

Those jerks. They didn't increase it for anyone I knew in the W&M thread or me. I thought the rejection email sounded like they don't do it.

I got rejected initially when I had no competing offer but when I had Vandy and Wisco offers, they bumped it, though minimally.

[bk1]

3. I went to school in Boston and didn't like it, at all. I don't consider it to be a big city, find it to be conservative and not the most appealing to me as a minority...I also don't like the Red Sox

4. My undergrad was large, and I *think* I would prefer to attend a law school with a smaller class size, that hopefully pays more attention to its students and where you can build stronger relationships with professors

Make sense?

So you don't actually want to be in Northeast? (considering you don't like Boston and you want a big city)

All law schools are pretty small compared to large undergrads (even the largest law schools only have around 600 kids per graduating class at most) and they all have low student to faculty ratios (Fordham/GW are 15:1). However the important thing is that you want to be in DC/NYC so you should be going to a T14 or Fordham/GW. Don't let immaterial things like class size be more relevant than things that are important such as where the school places its students.

I would say you should retake/reapply for a T14 or Fordham/GW, but with your current options you should take WUSTL and gun for Chicago (though you should realize that there is at least a decent chance that you might not get Chicago).

Though I really am confused by your thoughts that Boston is conservative and not very large.

[Capitol A]

3. I went to school in Boston and didn't like it, at all. I don't consider it to be a big city, find it to be conservative and not the most appealing to me as a minority...I also don't like the Red Sox

4. My undergrad was large, and I *think* I would prefer to attend a law school with a smaller class size, that hopefully pays more attention to its students and where you can build stronger relationships with professors

Make sense?

So you don't actually want to be in Northeast? (considering you don't like Boston and you want a big city)

All law schools are pretty small compared to large undergrads (even the largest law schools only have around 600 kids per graduating class at most) and they all have low student to faculty ratios (Fordham/GW are 15:1). However the important thing is that you want to be in DC/NYC so you should be going to a T14 or Fordham/GW. Don't let immaterial things like class size be more relevant than things that are important such as where the school places its students.

I would say you should retake/reapply for a T14 or Fordham/GW, but with your current options you should take WUSTL and gun for Chicago (though you should realize that there is at least a decent chance that you might not get Chicago).

Though I really am confused by your thoughts that Boston is conservative and not very large.

Just want to comment on this last issue, re: Boston as conservative/not very large.
I will take them on in reverse order-
Boston isn't very large. I'm not sure of exact numbers, but the population of Boston proper is surprisingly low, and the actually land mass is quite small (of course small land area doesn't mean small city). To a lot of people Boston probably feels like a big city because it is crowded, and it offers most of the advantages of a much larger city, but I think lola_ny's comments have a lot of merit in the sense that there is very, very little diversity in the city of Boston, and this is likely what led to the comment about Boston being "conservative." Boston is by absolutely no stretch of the imagination politically conservative, but in combination with the comment about it not being appealing to a minority, I can see where lola_ny is coming from. I was at game 1 of the Bruins/Canadiens series last week, and the things being yelled at the one black player on the Montreal were absolutely disgusting. In 5 days of visiting Boston I witnessed no less than 3 outright displays of racism first hand. Keep in mind, I'm white as can be; and I was appalled. Having grown up in an area where being white made me a minority, I would not be comfortable in an environment like I witnessed, and I think that's an extremely relavant thing to consider when choosing where to go to attend law school.

[thexfactor]

fight like hell to get in those WLed schools. 2x chance at biglaw at cornell.

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

This has to be flame:

"3. I went to school in Boston and didn't like it, at all. I don't consider it to be a big city, find it to be conservative and not the most appealing to me as a minority."

So you decide to apply to two schools, one of which is in the heartland and the other is in the south? lol. Good luck with that one. And good luck getting a job at graduation in these markets.

"4. My undergrad was large, and I *think* I would prefer to attend a law school with a smaller class size, that hopefully pays more attention to its students and where you can build stronger relationships with professors."

/facepalm. Have you never looked at the class sizes of all the 15-30 schools? Ever?

[lola_ny]

This has to be flame:

"3. I went to school in Boston and didn't like it, at all. I don't consider it to be a big city, find it to be conservative and not the most appealing to me as a minority."

So you decide to apply to two schools, one of which is in the heartland and the other is in the south? lol. Good luck with that one. And good luck getting a job at graduation in these markets.

"4. My undergrad was large, and I *think* I would prefer to attend a law school with a smaller class size, that hopefully pays more attention to its students and where you can build stronger relationships with professors."

/facepalm. Have you never looked at the class sizes of all the 15-30 schools? Ever?

No, it's not a flame. Here are the class sizes of the school's mentioned in this thread (from TLS profiles):

GWU: 523
Fordham: 476
WUSTL: 260
W&M: 213
Boston University: 271

I did look at the class sizes of school's ranked 15-30. Like I mentioned, maybe I didn't place enough emphasis on the "right" factors in deciding which schools to apply to. I've received conflicting information reading TLS and speaking with law school grads about choosing a school based on a region.

Regardless, thanks everyone for your comments!

[dr123]

Yeah, W&M doesn't negotiate.

More scholarship money doesn't mean as much since W&M's tuition is like 12k less per year.

Anyway, I vote WUSTL since it's in a bigish city. But ask yourself if you'd rather have the midwest or south, because you may not get it from either school.

Did you just call St. Louis big? lol.

Metropolitan StL has like 2+ million people, there are multiple professional sports, and a downtown area. How in the fuck is that not a "big city"

[bk1]

Did you just call St. Louis big? lol.

Metropolitan StL has like 2+ million people, there are multiple professional sports, and a downtown area. How in the fuck is that not a "big city"

Because it's not NYC.