Need to decide fast! U of Wisconsin or Loyola LA Forum

[Regionality]

Although not a deciding factor, it is a nice added bonus that graduates from UW do not need to take the bar exam (at least for those who will practice in WI).

Definite plus! Makes for a less stressful 3L.

It also creates a weird disincentive to look out of WI markets even though everyone else in the country has to sit for a bar exam...

[patrickd139]

Although not a deciding factor, it is a nice added bonus that graduates from UW do not need to take the bar exam (at least for those who will practice in WI).

Definite plus! Makes for a less stressful 3L.

Also this. That said, if you take it seriously (pay attention during LS, BarBri/Kaplan, etc.), passing the bar is not a high hurdle in the end. Unless you're in California. Then it's ridiculous.

[danielle9281]

True, I just don’t think I want the break and risk not doing as well on the LSAT. Moving somewhere like LA is not the most important decision. Overall, the most important decision is my chance of getting a good paying legal job. I have gotten mixed messages about LA; some that say you may not get the dream $160K a year job, but a high chance of getting 80-100K job if work at it. And others saying that so many Loyola students are unemployed and prospect are extremely low. I don’t want to risk going out there, just because of location. I need to know what my prospects would actually be like. Same goes for WI, except I usually hear great things about UW.

Also, is it extremely hard to get into the top 30%, when that means the top 100? Just doesn’t seem all that hard if I work at it. I may be totally wrong.

Taking a year off and retaking the LSAT are not synonymous. What are your numbers right now?

As for getting a good-paying job, I think your chances are much higher in the Midwest than LA, especially in the six-figure range. You may not get it immediately, but it'll be objectively easier to get. Like a poster said above, you're looking at attending the (arguably) 8th best school in an oversaturated, highly desirable legal market. That means to snag a "good" job by your definition, you're likely going to need to be higher than the requisite rank to keep your scholarship (think top 5-10% of your class). That the classes are huge definitely does not work in your favor. Which brings me to the class rank...

Conventional wisdom on TLS is that you should plan on graduating at the median of whatever school you go to, no matter what its rank. There are a myriad of reasons this is the case, and I don't have time to list them out for you, but a quick browse of the forums will get you up to speed.

In the end, you absolutely cannot guarantee with any certainty that you will be in the top 1/3 of your class. It's mathematically and realistically a terrible idea to make your plans contingent on being in the top 1/3 of any law school class any where.

Good point, thank you.

[danielle9281]

Although not a deciding factor, it is a nice added bonus that graduates from UW do not need to take the bar exam (at least for those who will practice in WI).

Definite plus! Makes for a less stressful 3L.

It also creates a weird disincentive to look out of WI markets even though everyone else in the country has to sit for a bar exam...

You have to meet certain requirements to not sit for the bar and many UW and Marquette graduates go on to work in Chicago or Minneapolis.

[danielle9281]

Wow I am surprised by all the responses and greatly appreciate it! Thank you everyone for taking time to give me your opinions!!

[MrKappus]

Also, is it extremely hard to get into the top 30%, when that means the top 100? Just doesn’t seem all that hard if I work at it.

I am positive that I can be successful at UW

I don't want to be overly harsh, but I feel the need to tell you that your attitude towards your prospects is dangerously rosy. There is absolutely no guarantee that you'll be a success at either school. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Right now you sound like you're making decisions based on the best-case scenario, and that's a really dumb thing to do in this legal jobs market.

[arhmcpo]

I would not recommend moving to LA for 3 years of school w/o first visiting. It is very different from other parts of the country and its not for everybody.

The $1200 apartments are most likely in ghetto areas in downtown. Though I'm sure you could find ones in slight-ghetto aka low crime but don't walk alone at night and double check the locks on your doors/windows.

The argument that WI is a smaller legal market doesn't hold merit. Yes its smaller overall - but the LA market, while larger, has dozen+ schools graduates competing for those jobs. Its cutthroat in LA for a job right now.

The stip on the scholarship will be difficult to keep. If you lose it you will have high debt. With high debt you will have to find a job that can pay it off keeping in mind that if you can't even keep the stip, Biglaw will be completely foreclosed to you. Realistically the top 15% have a shot at biglaw out of loyola and closer to 10% will actually get it. Keeping your scholly is not simply a matter of hard work; its a matter of natural smarts and aptitude for the subject matter. Hard work will keep you out of the bottom 20%, but will certainly not guarantee you the top 30%. Everyone around you will work as hard as you, some will work harder, and some will be so smart it will blow your mind. There is a chance you could turn out to be one of those mind-blowingly smart people but that is the gamble you take if you go the Loyola route.

In conclusion: go to WI >>>>> get a job >>>> profit. If you still want a job in CA thereafter, you can apply at your leisure knowing you have experience and already have a job.

[danielle9281]

Also, is it extremely hard to get into the top 30%, when that means the top 100? Just doesn’t seem all that hard if I work at it.

I am positive that I can be successful at UW

I don't want to be overly harsh, but I feel the need to tell you that your attitude towards your prospects is dangerously rosy. There is absolutely no guarantee that you'll be a success at either school. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Right now you sound like you're making decisions based on the best-case scenario, and that's a really dumb thing to do in this legal jobs market.

No I don't know whether I will do amazingly well at either school. I was sincerely asking whether it was hard to be top 30%. It doesn't sound hard, but I am not a law student yet so I really don't know and was looking for some insight on it. Obviously from people's responses it can be hard and it's bad to make a decision that is dependent on it. Also, what I meant about the successful at UW comment was not that I know I will be in the top portion of my class. I just meant I believe I will have better job opportunities there than at Loyola. I don't know how well I will do at law school; I am just hoping for the best and looking for some help regarding my decision between these two schools. If you have any information regarding Loyola or UW, than please let me know.

[danielle9281]

I would not recommend moving to LA for 3 years of school w/o first visiting. It is very different from other parts of the country and its not for everybody.

The $1200 apartments are most likely in ghetto areas in downtown. Though I'm sure you could find ones in slight-ghetto aka low crime but don't walk alone at night and double check the locks on your doors/windows.

The argument that WI is a smaller legal market doesn't hold merit. Yes its smaller overall - but the LA market, while larger, has dozen+ schools graduates competing for those jobs. Its cutthroat in LA for a job right now.

The stip on the scholarship will be difficult to keep. If you lose it you will have high debt. With high debt you will have to find a job that can pay it off keeping in mind that if you can't even keep the stip, Biglaw will be completely foreclosed to you. Realistically the top 15% have a shot at biglaw out of loyola and closer to 10% will actually get it. Keeping your scholly is not simply a matter of hard work; its a matter of natural smarts and aptitude for the subject matter. Hard work will keep you out of the bottom 20%, but will certainly not guarantee you the top 30%. Everyone around you will work as hard as you, some will work harder, and some will be so smart it will blow your mind. There is a chance you could turn out to be one of those mind-blowingly smart people but that is the gamble you take if you go the Loyola route.

In conclusion: go to WI >>>>> get a job >>>> profit. If you still want a job in CA thereafter, you can apply at your leisure knowing you have experience and already have a job.

Great response, I agree! This thread has just confirmed what I had already believed. Just wanted to hear it from other people to make sure I am giving up LA for the best reasons. I am definitely leaning towards UW, so it looks like there’s a great chance I will be enduring a few more winters

[patrickd139]

Great response, I agree! This thread has just confirmed what I had already believed. Just wanted to hear it from other people to make sure I am giving up LA for the best reasons. I am definitely leaning towards UW, so it looks like there’s a great chance I will be enduring a few more winters

I think you're making the right call here. LA will always be there after law school (or after you established your career) if you want to move. UW is a solid school. GL to you in the future!

[youngbuck]

Delete

[theavrock]

Go with Wisconsin.

I just received the class of 2010 employer info and 10 of the 211 students who reported ended up in California. 55% stayed in Wisco, but the grads are definitely spread out across the country. So while its possible to get LA from WI its not probable.

OP this comes down to where you want to be, but if you are more concerned about a job post graduation and are debt averse go to WI. WI is the unequivocal #1 in Wisconsin and well respected in the Midwest. As others have mentioned Loyola is a good choice and the market is better, but it is not at the top of the food chain in LA.

[EstboundNDwn]

I would not recommend moving to LA for 3 years of school w/o first visiting. It is very different from other parts of the country and its not for everybody.

The $1200 apartments are most likely in ghetto areas in downtown. Though I'm sure you could find ones in slight-ghetto aka low crime but don't walk alone at night and double check the locks on your doors/windows.

The argument that WI is a smaller legal market doesn't hold merit. Yes its smaller overall - but the LA market, while larger, has dozen+ schools graduates competing for those jobs. Its cutthroat in LA for a job right now.

The stip on the scholarship will be difficult to keep. If you lose it you will have high debt. With high debt you will have to find a job that can pay it off keeping in mind that if you can't even keep the stip, Biglaw will be completely foreclosed to you. Realistically the top 15% have a shot at biglaw out of loyola and closer to 10% will actually get it. Keeping your scholly is not simply a matter of hard work; its a matter of natural smarts and aptitude for the subject matter. Hard work will keep you out of the bottom 20%, but will certainly not guarantee you the top 30%. Everyone around you will work as hard as you, some will work harder, and some will be so smart it will blow your mind. There is a chance you could turn out to be one of those mind-blowingly smart people but that is the gamble you take if you go the Loyola route.

In conclusion: go to WI >>>>> get a job >>>> profit. If you still want a job in CA thereafter, you can apply at your leisure knowing you have experience and already have a job.

Great response, I agree! This thread has just confirmed what I had already believed. Just wanted to hear it from other people to make sure I am giving up LA for the best reasons. I am definitely leaning towards UW, so it looks like there’s a great chance I will be enduring a few more winters

It seems more like you need convincing that LA sucks. I'm sure there are a dozens of people on this board that can assist you.

[Regionality]

I would not recommend moving to LA for 3 years of school w/o first visiting. It is very different from other parts of the country and its not for everybody.

The $1200 apartments are most likely in ghetto areas in downtown. Though I'm sure you could find ones in slight-ghetto aka low crime but don't walk alone at night and double check the locks on your doors/windows.

The argument that WI is a smaller legal market doesn't hold merit. Yes its smaller overall - but the LA market, while larger, has dozen+ schools graduates competing for those jobs. Its cutthroat in LA for a job right now.

The stip on the scholarship will be difficult to keep. If you lose it you will have high debt. With high debt you will have to find a job that can pay it off keeping in mind that if you can't even keep the stip, Biglaw will be completely foreclosed to you. Realistically the top 15% have a shot at biglaw out of loyola and closer to 10% will actually get it. Keeping your scholly is not simply a matter of hard work; its a matter of natural smarts and aptitude for the subject matter. Hard work will keep you out of the bottom 20%, but will certainly not guarantee you the top 30%. Everyone around you will work as hard as you, some will work harder, and some will be so smart it will blow your mind. There is a chance you could turn out to be one of those mind-blowingly smart people but that is the gamble you take if you go the Loyola route.

In conclusion: go to WI >>>>> get a job >>>> profit. If you still want a job in CA thereafter, you can apply at your leisure knowing you have experience and already have a job.

Great response, I agree! This thread has just confirmed what I had already believed. Just wanted to hear it from other people to make sure I am giving up LA for the best reasons. I am definitely leaning towards UW, so it looks like there’s a great chance I will be enduring a few more winters

It seems more like you need convincing that LA sucks. I'm sure there are a dozens of people on this board that can assist you.

LA does suck!

traffic, dodgers, pollution, expensive, plastic faces, snobs, etc.

[071816]

.

[patrickd139]

I have an idea! Let's make sweeping generalizations to convince OP that he doesn't like Los Angeles and that he shouldn't go to Loyola! Oops, looks like you guys beat me to it...

U mad?

Alternatively, did you even read this thread or do you just type whatever comes into your mind first?

[071816]

.

[EstboundNDwn]

if I listed things like too many fat white people and the Brewers as reasons OP should not choose Wisconsin.

Judging by this thread, and discussions by the OP, I really do believe she is looking for reasons to turn down living in LA.

No one on this board can say for sure whether or not you'll find a job. It's a gamble. I'd say that Wisconsin is probably a safer gamble than Loyola, but the payoff in Wisconsin is less than Loyola. LA's market is bigger, the climate is nicer, and there are many more opportunities to capitalize on the vast network of people in the state. Yes, the competition is greater, and that's a real problem you'll have to face, but there is far more money out here to be made.

On the other hand, if your primary goal in life is to have that old fashioned Midwestern life where you can purchase a home before 40, you'll be a respected member of the community, and you can raise a ton of kids without incurring a substantial financial burden on your family, then Wisconsin is your choice.

What you have to understand is the people on this board fall into a handful of categories. Some believe gambling with six figures is an idiotic, borderline masochistic, idea; some are entirely naive to the gamble or they don't even want to acknowledge the facts; and then there are a small percentage who are sincerely looking for the best information to make a rational decision. It's the latter category that gets hosed.

The pessimists unfairly scare them, while the naive negligently raise their hopes.

This is life. Pick a road and make the most of it.

(The Brewers are still infinitely more favorable than the Dodgers)

[BarnabeSpooge]

Go with Wisconsin.

I just received the class of 2010 employer info and 10 of the 211 students who reported ended up in California. 55% stayed in Wisco, but the grads are definitely spread out across the country. So while its possible to get LA from WI its not probable.

You should do everyone a favor and post that info.

[theavrock]

Go with Wisconsin.

I just received the class of 2010 employer info and 10 of the 211 students who reported ended up in California. 55% stayed in Wisco, but the grads are definitely spread out across the country. So while its possible to get LA from WI its not probable.

You should do everyone a favor and post that info.

I specifically asked about sharing the info and i dont feel comfortable given the response but anyone who is interested PM me.

[zla2014]

I've lived in LA my entire life and was considering Loyola myself for awhile. Another thing you may want to consider is the kind of community you want to live in for 3 years. Loyola has a really nice campus but is right in the Downtown LA/Koreatown area and has a ton of traffic. It's also much more a commuter school than Wisconsin and you won't feel the sense of community that you would have in Wisconsin.

I personally love K-Town with all of it's great food and night-life, plus LA Live nearby, a bunch of great firms in Century City, Santa Monica, etc. but you are right, you are going to be competing with the UCLA and USC grads. You are going to have to be near the top of your class if you want to compete with them. That being said, Loyola is still a great, well respected school in Los Angeles.

I happened to apply to both Loyola and Wisconsin. Personally, b/c of that sense of community, my desire to be in a collegial atmosphere, not needing to take the bar exam, reciprocity (as you mentioned), COL, etc. I'd choose Wisconsin. Even out here, if you mention Wisconsin, ppl will tell you what a great school it is. I also know a few ppl who went to Wisc. law and now live and work as lawyers out here in LA. It has a great rep, you have a great scholarship there and you should be proud.

Congrats on your offers and good luck to you in choosing a school!

[EstboundNDwn]

I've lived in LA my entire life and was considering Loyola myself for awhile. Another thing you may want to consider is the kind of community you want to live in for 3 years. Loyola has a really nice campus but is right in the Downtown LA/Koreatown area and has a ton of traffic. It's also much more a commuter school than Wisconsin and you won't feel the sense of community that you would have in Wisconsin.

Did you do UG in LA? Many close friends in LA?

[danielle9281]

I would not recommend moving to LA for 3 years of school w/o first visiting. It is very different from other parts of the country and its not for everybody.

The $1200 apartments are most likely in ghetto areas in downtown. Though I'm sure you could find ones in slight-ghetto aka low crime but don't walk alone at night and double check the locks on your doors/windows.

The argument that WI is a smaller legal market doesn't hold merit. Yes its smaller overall - but the LA market, while larger, has dozen+ schools graduates competing for those jobs. Its cutthroat in LA for a job right now.

The stip on the scholarship will be difficult to keep. If you lose it you will have high debt. With high debt you will have to find a job that can pay it off keeping in mind that if you can't even keep the stip, Biglaw will be completely foreclosed to you. Realistically the top 15% have a shot at biglaw out of loyola and closer to 10% will actually get it. Keeping your scholly is not simply a matter of hard work; its a matter of natural smarts and aptitude for the subject matter. Hard work will keep you out of the bottom 20%, but will certainly not guarantee you the top 30%. Everyone around you will work as hard as you, some will work harder, and some will be so smart it will blow your mind. There is a chance you could turn out to be one of those mind-blowingly smart people but that is the gamble you take if you go the Loyola route.

In conclusion: go to WI >>>>> get a job >>>> profit. If you still want a job in CA thereafter, you can apply at your leisure knowing you have experience and already have a job.

Great response, I agree! This thread has just confirmed what I had already believed. Just wanted to hear it from other people to make sure I am giving up LA for the best reasons. I am definitely leaning towards UW, so it looks like there’s a great chance I will be enduring a few more winters

It seems more like you need convincing that LA sucks. I'm sure there are a dozens of people on this board that can assist you.

Haha, probably true! No I think I would like it there, but not the end of the world if I don't end up there.

[danielle9281]

I have an idea! Let's make sweeping generalizations to convince OP that he doesn't like Los Angeles and that he shouldn't go to Loyola! Oops, looks like you guys beat me to it...

He is a she, and I think I would love Los Angeles and enjoy Loyola, but my job prospects might be better at UW and it's cheaper to live there. I can always move out there after I establish myself, but then again I will older by then and it wouldn't be as much fun...

[danielle9281]

if I listed things like too many fat white people and the Brewers as reasons OP should not choose Wisconsin.

Judging by this thread, and discussions by the OP, I really do believe she is looking for reasons to turn down living in LA.

No one on this board can say for sure whether or not you'll find a job. It's a gamble. I'd say that Wisconsin is probably a safer gamble than Loyola, but the payoff in Wisconsin is less than Loyola. LA's market is bigger, the climate is nicer, and there are many more opportunities to capitalize on the vast network of people in the state. Yes, the competition is greater, and that's a real problem you'll have to face, but there is far more money out here to be made.

On the other hand, if your primary goal in life is to have that old fashioned Midwestern life where you can purchase a home before 40, you'll be a respected member of the community, and you can raise a ton of kids without incurring a substantial financial burden on your family, then Wisconsin is your choice.

What you have to understand is the people on this board fall into a handful of categories. Some believe gambling with six figures is an idiotic, borderline masochistic, idea; some are entirely naive to the gamble or they don't even want to acknowledge the facts; and then there are a small percentage who are sincerely looking for the best information to make a rational decision. It's the latter category that gets hosed.

The pessimists unfairly scare them, while the naive negligently raise their hopes.

This is life. Pick a road and make the most of it.

(The Brewers are still infinitely more favorable than the Dodgers)

No I do not want that boring Midwestern life and I actually own a home, bought it at 21. Anyways, I do sincerely want the best information. The reason I am so afraid of going that far into debt is because I have a great paying job and haven't had to go into debt. Now I am going to be quitting it and going off to law school, scary thing. I want to make sure that if I choose to go to LA the debt will be worth it. Considering my scholarship is with stipulations.