CLS vs. UVa? Forum

[ecamp2427]

$25,000 grant at Columbia
$90,000 grant at UVa

Liked both schools, looking to clerk or work for the government after school (not too into the idea of Big Law, but I guess once all this potential debt becomes a reality I could end up going that way). Drawn by the lay-prestige of Columbia over Virginia (when I tell my friends who haven't really looked into law school what I'm trying to decide between, they are usually shocked I'm even considering UVa), but I was drawn to the environment at UVa more (it didn't seem as cut-throat and the people seemed a little happier). I'm coming straight out of undergrad, if that makes a difference.

I'd love to know your thoughts!

[yngblkgifted]

Get over lay prestige because your friends aren't going to give you a job once you get out and go to UVA. HTH.

[bk1]

UVa without a doubt.

CLS doesn't hold a significant enough advantage in clerkships to justify it and if you want gov work it is best to keep your debt low. UVa is the easy pick when the cost difference is so enormous due to UVa's larger scholarship, lower cost living, and lower tuition.

[camelcrema]

CLS LRAP> UVa LRAP for government work?

[yngblkgifted]

OP- you might want to make this a poll.

If you hated the UVA environment and had a desire for biglaw, I'd be much more inclined to say CLS. However, the opposite seems to be the case so...UVA.

[WhirledWorld]

.

[trudat15]

CLS LRAP> UVa LRAP for government work?

Not sure on specifics of UVa's but Columbia's LRAP is good. If you are SURE you arent going into private sector, debt shouldnt really be a huge concern (LRAP will pay it off for 10 years until you reach IBR forgiveness). So where would you rather be for 3 years? Where do you think you'll do better?

[bk1]

I just don't see this CLS advantage in clerkships and government that other people are talking about.

Sources: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150681 http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

I guess you could make the argument that it is self selection, but are you really saying that CLS grads are significantly self selecting away from A3 clerkships?

[bk1]

I mean come on people. After you factor in tuition and CoL differences, UVa is almost $100,000 cheaper.

LRAP/IBR is all well and good but I'd rather take far less debt any day of the week over using LRAP/IBR when working in a PI/gov job.

[yngblkgifted]

Gotta go with bk187 here. I am not interested in clerkships but just from what I have gathered from people in real life, UVA does pretty well in that area, I think even more so than their general ranking would suggest.

Also, echoing bk187, this isn't just the difference between 25k and 90K once you add on COL. However much it would cost to live in NYC, just divide that by two and you'll get UVA's COL!

[Law Sauce]

I would think hard about UVa, but in the end it would be really really hard to turn down CLS... just saying... that being said, UVa may be a more enjoyable experience

[WhirledWorld]

.

[dpk711]

POLL

[trudat15]

I mean come on people. After you factor in tuition and CoL differences, UVa is almost $100,000 cheaper.

LRAP/IBR is all well and good but I'd rather take far less debt any day of the week over using LRAP/IBR when working in a PI/gov job.

Is there a reason why you wouldnt use LRAP/IBR? LRAP is free money, and IBR guarantees debt forgiveness after 10 years, regardless of amount.
If OP is POSITIVE that's what he wants to do, it should come down to UVa and Columbia on where he wants to be/will be happy/will do best, irregardless of price. I'm not suggesting CLS by any means, as I know UVa has great AIII placement as well. Just where ever he feels he would do best (which is much more important than the difference between UVa and CLS rankings wise). Again, if he is SURE about PI/Govt. If he isnt, UVa.

Agreed with other poster that lay prestige should be a non factor in making this decision.

[Moxie]

This will probably end up being a difference of about $80k (assuming CLS is about 5k per year more than UVA). For that kind of money, I think UVA is the right decision, even if it slightly lacks in placement for clerking and government.

[bk1]

Is there a reason why you wouldnt use LRAP/IBR? LRAP is free money, and IBR guarantees debt forgiveness after 10 years, regardless of amount.
If OP is POSITIVE that's what he wants to do, it should come down to UVa and Columbia on where he wants to be/will be happy/will do best, irregardless of price. I'm not suggesting CLS by any means, as I know UVa has great AIII placement as well. Just where ever he feels he would do best (which is much more important than the difference between UVa and CLS rankings wise). Again, if he is SURE about PI/Govt. If he isnt, UVa.

It's not that I wouldn't use it, it's that if someone said "hey you can have less loans and not have to use it" versus "hey you could have more loans and have to use it" I would take the lower amount of loans. You can still use IBR/LRAP with the UVa debt and your payments will be even smaller. Even if OP is positive, there are plenty of people who think they are so sure and then change their mind, it happens. Having a much smaller amount of debt gives a lot more freedom and the difference between UVa and CLS isn't significant enough to justify paying that much more.

As for where OP would do best, I would take a long hard look at whether that is actually true that going to school X would be that much easier than going to school Y for anybody who thinks they would really do better at one school over another.

[bdubs]

This will probably end up being a difference of about $80k (assuming CLS is about 5k per year more than UVA). For that kind of money, I think UVA is the right decision, even if it slightly lacks in placement for clerking and government.

Just thought I would point out that UVA placed 11% of its grads in Art III clerkships relative to CLS's 8%, according to US News.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Not saying that I think UVA is better, I'm just not convinced it is lacking in placement for clerkships (unless OP wants a NY clerkship).

[trudat15]

Is there a reason why you wouldnt use LRAP/IBR? LRAP is free money, and IBR guarantees debt forgiveness after 10 years, regardless of amount.
If OP is POSITIVE that's what he wants to do, it should come down to UVa and Columbia on where he wants to be/will be happy/will do best, irregardless of price. I'm not suggesting CLS by any means, as I know UVa has great AIII placement as well. Just where ever he feels he would do best (which is much more important than the difference between UVa and CLS rankings wise). Again, if he is SURE about PI/Govt. If he isnt, UVa.

It's not that I wouldn't use it, it's that if someone said "hey you can have less loans and not have to use it" versus "hey you could have more loans and have to use it" I would take the lower amount of loans. You can still use IBR/LRAP with the UVa debt and your payments will be even smaller. Even if OP is positive, there are plenty of people who think they are so sure and then change their mind, it happens. Having a much smaller amount of debt gives a lot more freedom and the difference between UVa and CLS isn't significant enough to justify paying that much more.

As for where OP would do best, I would take a long hard look at whether that is actually true that going to school X would be that much easier than going to school Y for anybody who thinks they would really do better at one school over another.

See your point on IBR/LRAP. WHich is why I said he has to be SURE if he's making that decision. If he's not, then of course the 100k difference comes into play.

Agreed. Think there wont be an appreciable difference between the caliber of students at both schools. My point was more - where he thinks he would do best. Maybe that means where he would be happiest? Or where he will fit in best? Or maybe he needs a more (in his words) cutthroat environment to really excel against the competition. Everyone's different. He knows himself and his study habits the best, so IMO he should make the decision accordingly.

[bk1]

See your point on IBR/LRAP. WHich is why I said he has to be SURE if he's making that decision.

I agree, but my point was that the difference isn't appreciable enough between CLS/UVa so take the one that offers more freedom via less debt in case you change your mind (which happens even to people who are 100% sure).

Agreed. Think there wont be an appreciable difference between the caliber of students at both schools. My point was more - where he thinks he would do best. Maybe that means where he would be happiest? Or where he will fit in best? Or maybe he needs a more (in his words) cutthroat environment to really excel against the competition. Everyone's different. He knows himself and his study habits the best, so IMO he should make the decision accordingly.

Actually this is exactly what I was getting at. People overestimate the differences between the cultures for different law school student bodies.

[trudat15]

See your point on IBR/LRAP. WHich is why I said he has to be SURE if he's making that decision.

I agree, but my point was that the difference isn't appreciable enough between CLS/UVa so take the one that offers more freedom via less debt in case you change your mind (which happens even to people who are 100% sure).

I see your point. I do know ppl change their minds in LS all the time, but imagine this is much more "biglaw or bust" mentality changing vs. "PI for me" changing. Always thought that ppl sure of PI or Govt work tend to stick to that lane. But that's just my perception based on no evidence whatsoever.

Agreed. Think there wont be an appreciable difference between the caliber of students at both schools. My point was more - where he thinks he would do best. Maybe that means where he would be happiest? Or where he will fit in best? Or maybe he needs a more (in his words) cutthroat environment to really excel against the competition. Everyone's different. He knows himself and his study habits the best, so IMO he should make the decision accordingly.

Actually this is exactly what I was getting at. People overestimate the differences between the cultures for different law school student bodies.

Then IMO OP should be looking into the cultures. Visiting the schools (sounds like he has) and talking to the student body. In the end, class rank is much more important than the 4 vs 9 rankings of the schools, esp if he wants to be competitive for AIII, whch is why I think where he would do best (or think he will) should be a main concern RE this decision.

[FiveSermon]

Depends how debt adverse you are.

[Non-Chalant1]

This will probably end up being a difference of about $80k (assuming CLS is about 5k per year more than UVA). For that kind of money, I think UVA is the right decision, even if it slightly lacks in placement for clerking and government.

Just thought I would point out that UVA placed 11% of its grads in Art III clerkships relative to CLS's 8%, according to US News.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Not saying that I think UVA is better, I'm just not convinced it is lacking in placement for clerkships (unless OP wants a NY clerkship).

I don't know anyone who sasy UVA is better for clerking than CLS, but to the extent to take on this debt? I wouldn't go that far either. Also, as far as being more "undergrad friendly" like some said in this thread. I assume they were referring to the people at UVA based on age? I hope you realize that 1/3 of CLS' class is straight out of undergrad. With that said, I would choose CLS but I would never want to be in Charlottesville and wouldn't do well there. If you're debt averse and wise...UVA is probably the better decision.

[sarahh]

I see your point. I do know ppl change their minds in LS all the time, but imagine this is much more "biglaw or bust" mentality changing vs. "PI for me" changing. Always thought that ppl sure of PI or Govt work tend to stick to that lane. But that's just my perception based on no evidence whatsoever.

From what I have read and heard, I actually think it is the opposite. People go in wanting to save the world, but then they get on the biglaw track because they are enticed by the money or because doing OCI is more convenient than trying to find a PI job on your own.

[yngblkgifted]

This will probably end up being a difference of about $80k (assuming CLS is about 5k per year more than UVA). For that kind of money, I think UVA is the right decision, even if it slightly lacks in placement for clerking and government.

Just thought I would point out that UVA placed 11% of its grads in Art III clerkships relative to CLS's 8%, according to US News.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Not saying that I think UVA is better, I'm just not convinced it is lacking in placement for clerkships (unless OP wants a NY clerkship).

I don't know anyone who sasy UVA is better for clerking than CLS, but to the extent to take on this debt? I wouldn't go that far either. Also, as far as being more "undergrad friendly" like some said in this thread. I assume they were referring to the people at UVA based on age? I hope you realize that 1/3 of CLS' class is straight out of undergrad. With that said, I would choose CLS but I would never want to be in Charlottesville and wouldn't do well there. If you're debt averse and wise...UVA is probably the better decision.

FWIW, of all the T10 schools I visited, UVA seemed to have the highest percentage of "straight outta undergrad" students at their ASW.

[vamedic03]

This will probably end up being a difference of about $80k (assuming CLS is about 5k per year more than UVA). For that kind of money, I think UVA is the right decision, even if it slightly lacks in placement for clerking and government.

Just thought I would point out that UVA placed 11% of its grads in Art III clerkships relative to CLS's 8%, according to US News.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

Not saying that I think UVA is better, I'm just not convinced it is lacking in placement for clerkships (unless OP wants a NY clerkship).

I don't know anyone who sasy UVA is better for clerking than CLS, but to the extent to take on this debt? I wouldn't go that far either. Also, as far as being more "undergrad friendly" like some said in this thread. I assume they were referring to the people at UVA based on age? I hope you realize that 1/3 of CLS' class is straight out of undergrad. With that said, I would choose CLS but I would never want to be in Charlottesville and wouldn't do well there. If you're debt averse and wise...UVA is probably the better decision.

FWIW, of all the T10 schools I visited, UVA seemed to have the highest percentage of "straight outta undergrad" students at their ASW.

This is kind of a meaningless . . . That's just a matter of who was there the ASD you came to and who you spoke with.