Is this a good choice??? Forum

[jfb]

Please guide me. I'm between Penn (39k), ucla (113k), and Nu (120k) and am leaning toward NU. All scholarship amounts are 3 year totals.

I am not sure what I want to do upon graduation but would like the opportunity to clerk and do biglaw for a couple years. I would also like to have a fighting chance of entering academia at some point in my career. I would prefer to work in either the northeast (boston or nyc) or cali. I will also be married by the time I start school, so keeping debt low is important to me. I am learning toward NU w/ 40k/year and no stips. Is this a good choice considering my other options and tentative career/location goals??

[sonervous88]

yes. good choice.

[Sentry]

yes. good choice.

[Law Sauce]

No question.

[shortporch]

Speaking frankly, a "fighting chance" at academia should not be a serious factor in your consideration.

[sgtgrumbles]

Speaking frankly, a "fighting chance" at academia should not be a serious factor in your consideration.

Yeah, you probably need to be in the top 10 students at either of these schools to have that chance. What I mean is that you should choose NU. It is a good choice.

[Dany]

yes. good choice.

[alumniguy]

Agreed. Whether you have a chance at academia is going to deal with your success as a law school student. Perhaps Penn and NU would give you a bit of a leg-up over UCLA, but I don't even know if that is the case. You'll need to do well and be on a journal (unless you become an expert in a field as a lawyer and get to academia via that route).

[bk1]

NU is a good choice for NYC. If you have ties to Boston or CA it is probably a decent enough choice for those too (though UCLA is probably a better bet purely for CA). None of these are going to give you more than a snowball's chance in hell at academia. Clerking is going to be tough as well, possible, but still rare (think 5-10% chance).

Take the 120k at NU for biglaw and accept that a clerkship will be very difficult and that academia will be nigh impossible.

[jfb]

Thanks for the replies. The academia thing aside, I'm glad to see that it seems like NU would be the best option for me. Anyone else care to weigh in??

Also, just wondering not challenging, on what are you basing the conclusion that academia from NU would be close to impossible??

[Knock]

Thanks for the replies. The academia thing aside, I'm glad to see that it seems like NU would be the best option for me. Anyone else care to weigh in??

Also, just wondering not challenging, on what are you basing the conclusion that academia from NU would be close to impossible??

Yes, NU is pretty clearly the best option here.

Academia is tough from any school, and extremely improbable from any school not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford (and to a much lesser extent, Chicago). I'll dig up the numbers for you in a second, but I doubt more than a couple of students from NU enter into legal academia in a given year.

Edited: This is from 2008, but as you can see only 3 Northwestern alums were placed as law professors: http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... rsion.html.

1. Yale University-30
2. Harvard University-25
3. Stanford University-12
4. Columbia University-9, University of Michigan-9 (Tie)
6. New York University-5, University of California-Berkeley-5, University of Chicago-5 (Tie)
9. Georgetown University-3, Northwestern University-3, University of Virginia-3 (Tie)

Here are the numbers from 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 combined (ranked by % of applicants hired): http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... iring.html.

LAW SCHOOL-----TOTAL JD APPLICANTS 2006-08----JD APPLICANTS HIRED 2006-08-----% HIRED 2006-08
Yale------------------------ 97 ------------------------------ 49 ----------------------------- 51%
Stanford---------------------37 -------------------------------19 -----------------------------51%
Chicago---------------------28 --------------------------------12------------------------------43%
Illinois-----------------------8----------------------------------3-------------------------------38%
Harvard--------------------126---------------------------------47------------------------------37%
Minnesota------------------11---------------------------------4---------------------------------36%
Virginia----------------------40--------------------------------14--------------------------------35%
Northwestern----------------18--------------------------------6---------------------------------33%

[Grizz]

NU is a good choice for NYC. If you have ties to Boston or CA it is probably a decent enough choice for those too (though UCLA is probably a better bet purely for CA). None of these are going to give you more than a snowball's chance in hell at academia. Clerking is going to be tough as well, possible, but still rare (think 5-10% chance).

Take the 120k at NU for biglaw and accept that a clerkship will be very difficult and that academia will be nigh impossible.

[shortporch]

For some reason, virtually every person throws out "academia" as one possible area of interest. There are something in the area of 150 to 200 academia slots every year. Many of them these days include individuals with a PhD (or sometimes an LLM) on top of the JD.

To put that in comparison, there are about 45,000 law school graduates each year. There are around 35-40 Supreme Court clerks each year. The summer associate classes for Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C in 2009 (combined) were around 250; the combined classes in 2010 were around 120.

Academia can't seriously be "one" of many alternative dream careers for most students. There are 2-3 Northwestern or Penn academics hired each year. Much more will turn on school performance, ability to publish, pursuit of an advanced degree, or alternative factors.

[alumniguy]

Thanks for the replies. The academia thing aside, I'm glad to see that it seems like NU would be the best option for me. Anyone else care to weigh in??

Also, just wondering not challenging, on what are you basing the conclusion that academia from NU would be close to impossible??

Yes, NU is pretty clearly the best option here.

Academia is tough from any school, and extremely improbable from any school not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford (and to a much lesser extent, Chicago). I'll dig up the numbers for you in a second, but I doubt more than a couple of students from NU enter into legal academia in a given year.

Edited: This is from 2008, but as you can see only 3 Northwestern alums were placed as law professors: http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... rsion.html.

1. Yale University-30
2. Harvard University-25
3. Stanford University-12
4. Columbia University-9, University of Michigan-9 (Tie)
6. New York University-5, University of California-Berkeley-5, University of Chicago-5 (Tie)
9. Georgetown University-3, Northwestern University-3, University of Virginia-3 (Tie)

Here are the numbers from 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 combined (ranked by % of applicants hired): http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi ... iring.html.

LAW SCHOOL-----TOTAL JD APPLICANTS 2006-08----JD APPLICANTS HIRED 2006-08-----% HIRED 2006-08
Yale------------------------ 97 ------------------------------ 49 ----------------------------- 51%
Stanford---------------------37 -------------------------------19 -----------------------------51%
Chicago---------------------28 --------------------------------12------------------------------43%
Illinois-----------------------8----------------------------------3-------------------------------38%
Harvard--------------------126---------------------------------47------------------------------37%
Minnesota------------------11---------------------------------4---------------------------------36%
Virginia----------------------40--------------------------------14--------------------------------35%
Northwestern----------------18--------------------------------6---------------------------------33%

This is interesting...I assume that these statistics include those who have pursued other career paths prior to seeking an academic position? Regardless, there isn't much of a difference between the top schools - I would venture to guess that you need to do well where ever you go (few academic institutions want middling students, even if those students are from Yale). You'll need to hit it out of the park (slightly more so the farther you get down the prestige ladder).

In any event, I would agree that NO pre-law school student should choose a school based on academia prospects - it is simply too much of a gamble (especially when you're comparing schools as similar as NU and Penn).

[firemed]

NU

[Bumi]

yes. good choice.

See you in August!