Denver v. Camden Forum

[HeavenWood]

Are the job prospects really that good from Rutgers, at least in comparison to similarly ranked schools?

They're good enough that Rutgers at 13k a year + COL is a much better deal than Denver at sticker. But since you're averse to staying in greater Philadelphia, going to Rutgers, a strictly regional school, is probably a bad idea.

I still think a retake could be worthwhile. Even if you can't get into CU, Denver could offer you more money. Some solid Midwestern schools like UIUC, WUSTL, Minnesota, etc could also shower you with splitter love.

[Wholigan]

Isn't Camden right across the Delaware River from Philadelphia ? Just a few minutes away ?

Yes. He probably just didn't like your constant use of "Camden/Philly" and "Philly/Camden" to describe it like it's one big city. Most Philadelphians want to distance themselves from Camden, since it's mostly blight. I'm sure he really wouldn't like the recent article in a Notre Dame secondary journal suggesting that Philadelphia join New Jersey and annex Camden. (I'm not kidding.)

This. Although quite honestly, Philly has much more in common with South Jersey than the rest of the state. That being said, annexing a small (but crime-ridden) city like Camden with no tax base and minimal tourist revenue is probably not in the city's best interests.

I also like PA's (comparatively) low taxes.

What they do according to the LJ article, is also annex Collingswood, Merchantville, Pennsauken and Haddonfield to balance out Camden. But really it's like negotiating with law schools. Once Philadelphia gets "accepted" into NJ, before they send in a deposit they go back to the PA legislature, and say "If you want to keep us in your state, you will let us annex Delco, Montco, or Bucks county."

(Sorry for straying off topic, OP. I think you could get a nice amount money from Denver if you could get up into the high 160s, though.)

[Whatever1]

Denver's not that small of a market, 8th or 9th biggest market in the country if I remember correctly from a link someone posted on here awhile back. Has something like 1200 attorneys doing big law according to that link.

No way is Denver in the top 10 for legal markets. NYC, Chicago, LA, DC, SF, SV, Dallas, Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta are all much bigger and more important markets. Denver is probably not even in the top 20.

There are about 1000 BigLaw attorneys in Denver. That's not many. About the same as a lot of secondary markets.

You're right about not being in the top 10. here is the website I was referring to: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
I made the mistake of just glancing at it and assuming that they had the cities listed in order, but they don't.

Seems Denver is more like 12th or 13th biggest. My bad. But nonetheless, it says 35 of the top 250 firms have offices there. I suspected this since it is the biggest city in a growing region, but I definitely agree with you, not many and Denver is not a huge market. Not small either though, I'd say.

[Wholigan]

.

[HeavenWood]

Isn't Camden right across the Delaware River from Philadelphia ? Just a few minutes away ?

Yes. He probably just didn't like your constant use of "Camden/Philly" and "Philly/Camden" to describe it like it's one big city. Most Philadelphians want to distance themselves from Camden, since it's mostly blight. I'm sure he really wouldn't like the recent article in a Notre Dame secondary journal suggesting that Philadelphia join New Jersey and annex Camden. (I'm not kidding.)

This. Although quite honestly, Philly has much more in common with South Jersey than the rest of the state. That being said, annexing a small (but crime-ridden) city like Camden with no tax base and minimal tourist revenue is probably not in the city's best interests.

I also like PA's (comparatively) low taxes.

What they do according to the LJ article, is also annex Collingswood, Merchantville, Pennsauken and Haddonfield to balance out Camden. But really it's like negotiating with law schools. Once Philadelphia gets "accepted" into NJ, before the send in a deposit they go back to the PA legislature, and say "If you want to keep us in your state, you will let us annex Delco, Montco, or Bucks county."

(Sorry for straying off topic, OP. I think you could get nice amount money from Denver if you could get up into the high 160s, though.)

I'll take Haddonfield and the Eastern parts of Cherry Hill and Voorhees. They can keep the rest of it.

[Aqualibrium]

Small in terms of hiring for the types of jobs that will service 150k in loans...

[Whatever1]

Small in terms of hiring for the types of jobs that will service 150k in loans...

Yup, but OP said he doesn't want Big Law anyway so it doesn't matter. I agree with you about the loan debt though. His stated goal of paying it off in 10 years is going to be tough, but can be done over a longer period.

[Case2L]

Well, Denver is the second best school in Colorado! In all seriousness, I voted DU because it seems like you'll be happier there. I cannot comment as to whether or not the Denver legal community views DU as a peer school to CU, but without a doubt you will have a better shot in the Mountain West region with a JD from Denver than with one from Rutgers-Camden. Quality of life is very important, and I would rather have a student loan to pay off and enjoy where I live and work rather than have little loan to pay off but wind up unhappy with where I live. Plus, DU's undergrad has a strong reputation in the region, and I have found undergrad reputation to be helpful when seeking a non-law job, if that option interests you.

It's my two cents, and that's about all my advice is worth, because I have little familiarity with either law school/legal market.

[CanadianWolf]

DU is a large law school with approximately 1,018 law students (786 full-time & 232 part-time) whereas Colorado has only a full-time law program with about 545 students.
Both have solid reputations, but Colorado is more selective &, consequently, has more prestige to go along with in-state (resident) tuition.

[Aqualibrium]

Small in terms of hiring for the types of jobs that will service 150k in loans...

Yup, but OP said he doesn't want Big Law anyway so it doesn't matter. I agree with you about the loan debt though. His stated goal of paying it off in 10 years is going to be tough not going to be possible, but it can be done over a longer period of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Whatever1]

Small in terms of hiring for the types of jobs that will service 150k in loans...

Yup, but OP said he doesn't want Big Law anyway so it doesn't matter. I agree with you about the loan debt though. His stated goal of paying it off in 10 years is going to be tough not going to be possible, but it can be done over a longer period of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Not entirely true. Is he going to have a big bill every month? Yes. Can he be reasonably okay if he stays on a budget and manages his money? Absolutely.

He can pay off 150K in 12 years making about a $1,500 a month payment. Yes it sucks, yes this is like having a mortage before he even gets started. But if he doesn't live large and buy brand new cars and go on 3 vacations a year and spend excessively he can have it paid off by late 30's.

[HeavenWood]

Not entirely true. Is he going to have a big bill every month? Yes. Can he be reasonably okay if he stays on a budget and manages his money? Absolutely.

He can pay off 150K in 12 years making about a $1,500 a month payment. Yes it sucks, yes this is like having a mortage before he even gets started. But if he doesn't live large and buy brand new cars and go on 3 vacations a year and spend excessively he can have it paid off by late 30's.

The point is, paying 150k for a high probability of a meager post-grad lifestyle is an unwise decision.

[Whatever1]

Not entirely true. Is he going to have a big bill every month? Yes. Can he be reasonably okay if he stays on a budget and manages his money? Absolutely.

He can pay off 150K in 12 years making about a $1,500 a month payment. Yes it sucks, yes this is like having a mortage before he even gets started. But if he doesn't live large and buy brand new cars and go on 3 vacations a year and spend excessively he can have it paid off by late 30's.

The point is, paying 150k for a high probability of a meager post-grad lifestyle is an unwise decision.

Yeah, just depends on your perspective. If you're doing that because you want to be rich then that's unwise. But if he is okay with swallowing that monthly payment and likes where he is living and what he is doing and the blow to the bank does not effect his happiness with his career choice then that is not unwise to me. There is more to lifestyle than big paychecks in your late twenties and thirties.

[HeavenWood]

Not entirely true. Is he going to have a big bill every month? Yes. Can he be reasonably okay if he stays on a budget and manages his money? Absolutely.

He can pay off 150K in 12 years making about a $1,500 a month payment. Yes it sucks, yes this is like having a mortage before he even gets started. But if he doesn't live large and buy brand new cars and go on 3 vacations a year and spend excessively he can have it paid off by late 30's.

The point is, paying 150k for a high probability of a meager post-grad lifestyle is an unwise decision.

Yeah, just depends on your perspective. If you're doing that because you want to be rich then that's unwise. But if he is okay with swallowing that monthly payment and likes where he is living and what he is doing and the blow to the bank does not effect his happiness with his career choice then that is not unwise to me. There is more to lifestyle than big paychecks in your late twenties and thirties.

Depending on state and local taxes, a 50k salary will leave you with just under 3k a month. Lop off $1,500 for loan payments and you're left for just that much--$1,500 per month. Is it possible to live on $1,500 a month? Sure. Is it a great lifestyle? No. Is it worth paying $150,000 to do so? You tell me.

[Whatever1]

Not entirely true. Is he going to have a big bill every month? Yes. Can he be reasonably okay if he stays on a budget and manages his money? Absolutely.

He can pay off 150K in 12 years making about a $1,500 a month payment. Yes it sucks, yes this is like having a mortage before he even gets started. But if he doesn't live large and buy brand new cars and go on 3 vacations a year and spend excessively he can have it paid off by late 30's.

The point is, paying 150k for a high probability of a meager post-grad lifestyle is an unwise decision.

Yeah, just depends on your perspective. If you're doing that because you want to be rich then that's unwise. But if he is okay with swallowing that monthly payment and likes where he is living and what he is doing and the blow to the bank does not effect his happiness with his career choice then that is not unwise to me. There is more to lifestyle than big paychecks in your late twenties and thirties.

Depending on state and local taxes, a 50k salary will leave you with just under 3k a month. Lop off $1,500 for loan payments and you're left for just that much--$1,500 per month. Is it possible to live on $1,500 a month? Sure. Is it a great lifestyle? No. Is it worth paying $150,000 to do so? You tell me.

Well to me it's not, but you're forgetting the point that even if you make $50,000 starting out as you suggest you are not going to make that same amount of money for the duration of those 12 years. It would be nearly impossible to stay at the exact same income level for such an extended amount of time and as he gains experience (and with it, money) OP would find those loan payments more comfortable to make.

Look, I wouldn't do it. But the theory that you are just doomed for bankruptcy is not true if you can stay disciplined with your spending.

[HeavenWood]

Look, I wouldn't do it. But the theory that you are just doomed for bankruptcy is not true if you can stay disciplined with your spending.

Then don't recommend that the OP do it, because that would be really shitty advice.

[Aqualibrium]

Look, I wouldn't do it. But the theory that you are just doomed for bankruptcy is not true if you can stay disciplined with your spending.

Then don't recommend that the OP do it, because that would be really shitty advice.

+1

Denver should not be an option for this person...

[Whatever1]

Look, I wouldn't do it. But the theory that you are just doomed for bankruptcy is not true if you can stay disciplined with your spending.

Then don't recommend that the OP do it, because that would be really shitty advice.

+1

Denver should not be an option for this person...

I'm simply saying that someone who is old enough and smart enough to be accepted to law school is old enough and smart enough to understand finances and how to manage those finances. He is perfectly capable of understanding the debt and making the decision of whether he is fine with taking it on.

[HeavenWood]

Look, I wouldn't do it. But the theory that you are just doomed for bankruptcy is not true if you can stay disciplined with your spending.

Then don't recommend that the OP do it, because that would be really shitty advice.

+1

Denver should not be an option for this person...

I'm simply saying that someone who is old enough and smart enough to be accepted to law school is old enough and smart enough to understand finances and how to manage those finances. He is perfectly capable of understanding the debt and making the decision of whether he is fine with taking it on.

I'm just going to leave this here for posterity.

[crossarmant]

So, I think I'm leaning more towards Camden just because it's significantly cheaper and seems to have a solid reputation in the area. I know never trust any salary information, but Forbes had it listed as the 18th highest mid-career salary school. And for significantly less than any of the others it may just be the right choice, especially with in-state tuition.

Though, I've hit up DU's Fin Aid office to see what kind of scholarship money I can weasel out... What amount would you consider worth it to toss the potentially $16,500 of tuition at RU-C ($5k scholarship + in-state) for Denver? Like $15k of scholarships from Denver make it worth it? Then DU's tuition is only like $22k, which seems a lot more manageable than $37k a year.

[emjay]

this. is. camden.

[crossarmant]

this. is. camden.

I'm aware. It looks like Fallout 3 (from what I hear of crime state, complete with Raiders too). But if I went there I'd probably live in Collingswood and ride the train to campus. I'm just trying to think cost-effectiveness post graduation.

[HeavenWood]

this. is. camden.

I'm aware. It looks like Fallout 3 (from what I hear of crime state, complete with Raiders too). But if I went there I'd probably live in Collingswood and ride the train to campus. I'm just trying to think cost-effectiveness post graduation.

Bingo. Live in Collingswood or Merchantville or Cherry Hill West.

[crossarmant]

So, after weighing and calculating all of this out I've decided to go with RU-C. It makes way more financial sense, seeing how as it saves me thousands upon thousands of dollars. Career prospects seem better at Rutgers too, whether it be the higher NLJ 250 placement rate or clerkship rates, it just seems smarter for a career choice rather than DU which I feel is more of me just wanting to live in Rockies. Anyways, Philly is about 4 hours any direction to all of my family and friends, so hopefully I'm making the right choice.