Northwestern V NYU v Columbia Forum

[09042014]

If it's zero debt at NU vs 130K+ debt at CLS/NYU, I think it's silly to go to CLS. Their NYC placement is obviously better, but it's not 130K better. The difference between CCN and the rest of the T13 is only about 15% difference in class rank.

But if whatever causes you to have no COL applies to CLS/NYU, and it's only 75K more, it's more even of a choice. I'd still recommend NU, but it's not a clear choice at that point.

@whoever is saying you have to bid in Chicago at NU that's ridiculous. Most of the class won't put one bid in Chicago. Plenty of people to NYC only. And the call back inconvenience isn't really all that great compared to living where you want to live after school.

[BrightLine]

First, thanks for the additonal responses. A couple of hours ago I was 95% CLS and now I am still thinking. When it was NYU vs NU I was heavily leaning NU, but the CLS offer changed things in my mind, and perhaps my valuing CLS lay prestige that much is petulant.

Some additional facts

• I have no ties at all to Northwestern or Chicago and did not really expect to get in there (no interview, generic application)
  COL would be zero debt because if I were not to defer law school I would have saved total about 50K, at that point my family would help me with the rest 20K or so over 3 years

The bottom line is that I am probably talking about 100K vs 0-10K of debt.

[BrightLine]

It is also interesting that the vote is hevily CLS but the responses are more even. Are extremely debt averse people a vocal minority? if so, they make very good points.

[tome]

They are all good choices. Congratulations, you won this stage. Now it is just a matter of doing well at law school.

I chose NW just because in my experience the people here who took NW over the NY schools seem to do very well and have awesome jobs and no debt.

[Badger3920]

edit: you should add the NU deferred full ride no COL in the poll b/c i think that is what is skewing the results

OP said that CoL would be covered.

I have an option that would cover the Northwestern living expenses. So it really would be ZERO debt

Reading comp fail...yeah in that case OP do what you want and don't let anyone on TLS tell you otherwise but its pretty hard to justify passing up truly ZERO debt at a T14...thats a hell of an option, one that I didn't have...

I go to Columbia and, as awesome as it is - and a great chance to network in NYC; I'd have a truly difficult time passing up 0 debt at a T14, and I'm merely joe schmoe when it comes to being debt averse. If the economy weren't bad, and the job market were the way it was (basically the good ol' days) maybe I'd have a much harder time picking NU. But, if I were you, I'd play it smart in the uncertainty. NU is a great school. People would kill to be able to go and pay sticker there.

[bk1]

It is also interesting that the vote is hevily CLS but the responses are more even. Are extremely debt averse people a vocal minority? if so, they make very good points.

People who vote don't necessarily have to defend their choice. Plus they don't always fully read or think out the situation. I'm biased because the responses are more in line with what I think is the right choice, but I think you should put more weight on the points put forth in responses than how the percentages in the poll line up.

The bottom line is that I am probably talking about 100K vs 0-10K of debt.

I still vote NU. A free T14 is better than 100k T6.

[thecilent]

@whoever is saying you have to bid in Chicago at NU that's ridiculous. Most of the class won't put one bid in Chicago. Plenty of people to NYC only. And the call back inconvenience isn't really all that great compared to living where you want to live after school.

That was me. I wasn't too sure if that was the case or not. I just thought it made sense that people would probably put a few bids on Chicago regardless, but yeah I believe you for sure

OP I would still choose cls at 100k over NU 10k. So what this should tell you is that there is not one correct option. There are arguments for both sides.

[BrightLine]

Bump because I still cant decide

[rayiner]

Yeah I'll agree that if OP doesn't mind moving to Chicago and having to understand that he might have to bid some spots on chicago market, then NU would be smart.

If not, cls/nyu

Why wouldn't OP be able to put all his bids on NYC?

Well if you are in chicago for three years, you are going to want to put some bids there I would imagine. If for nothing else than it is much easier to schedule and attend callbacks if the market is close to you. Flying out to NYC for all those callback interviews will take a toll. I would think you would want a fallback closer to your school.. This is also an advantage for the schools in nyc.. a lot easier to schedule and go to interviews and stuff when it's only a subway ride away..

Bidding NY from NU is no big deal. All the major firms NYC firms recruit here except Wachtell and Debevoise. My friends from NU who did targeted NYC just scheduled their callbacks in a row so they could do it in 1 or 2 trips. Heck, I bid CHI/NYC/DC/ATL and it wasn't that bad. Just two weeks of flying around, staying at nice hotels, and getting free lunches.

If you're looking at a $125k difference, I'd consider NU seriously. And $125k is $25k of before tax income per year for 10 years. It means that in the few years you'll last in big law, you can bank $$$ instead of just paying off your loans.

[rayiner]

First, thanks for the additonal responses. A couple of hours ago I was 95% CLS and now I am still thinking. When it was NYU vs NU I was heavily leaning NU, but the CLS offer changed things in my mind, and perhaps my valuing CLS lay prestige that much is petulant.

Some additional facts

• I have no ties at all to Northwestern or Chicago and did not really expect to get in there (no interview, generic application)
  COL would be zero debt because if I were not to defer law school I would have saved total about 50K, at that point my family would help me with the rest 20K or so over 3 years

The bottom line is that I am probably talking about 100K vs 0-10K of debt.

Your math blows. You have to pay cost of living in Chicago so don't factor it out. Columbia/NYU would be $75k more, which IMHO is reasonable to take if you have no desire to leave NYC for 3 years.

[BrightLine]

First, thanks for the additonal responses. A couple of hours ago I was 95% CLS and now I am still thinking. When it was NYU vs NU I was heavily leaning NU, but the CLS offer changed things in my mind, and perhaps my valuing CLS lay prestige that much is petulant.

Some additional facts

• I have no ties at all to Northwestern or Chicago and did not really expect to get in there (no interview, generic application)
  COL would be zero debt because if I were not to defer law school I would have saved total about 50K, at that point my family would help me with the rest 20K or so over 3 years

The bottom line is that I am probably talking about 100K vs 0-10K of debt.

Your math blows. You have to pay cost of living in Chicago so don't factor it out. Columbia/NYU would be $75k more, which IMHO is reasonable to take if you have no desire to leave NYC for 3 years.

I am not sure why the math is off. Go to CLS in 2011 is 25K tuition+15K in living expenses (and that may be low) 40*3=120-20K for savings=100K

1 Year deferred Northwestern OK tuition+ 15K*3=45K (may be a bit low)-20K already saved-25K in additional 2011 savings (working and living at home)=0K. My family is not rich but if it comes down to additional 5-10K a year at the end, I will get the help. Hence, 0K

[tea_drinker]

First, thanks for the additonal responses. A couple of hours ago I was 95% CLS and now I am still thinking. When it was NYU vs NU I was heavily leaning NU, but the CLS offer changed things in my mind, and perhaps my valuing CLS lay prestige that much is petulant.

Why does the lay prestige of Columbia influence you that much? Given what you want to do (i.e. Big law), lay prestige doesn't matter that much, or at all. And to be honest, I don't think the lay prestige of Northwestern is much behind Columbia, but that discussion is not relevant here.

Defer at Northwestern and take the full ride.

Edit: I didn't vote, because I would have voted for deferring/full scholly.

[rayiner]

First, thanks for the additonal responses. A couple of hours ago I was 95% CLS and now I am still thinking. When it was NYU vs NU I was heavily leaning NU, but the CLS offer changed things in my mind, and perhaps my valuing CLS lay prestige that much is petulant.

Some additional facts

• I have no ties at all to Northwestern or Chicago and did not really expect to get in there (no interview, generic application)
  COL would be zero debt because if I were not to defer law school I would have saved total about 50K, at that point my family would help me with the rest 20K or so over 3 years

The bottom line is that I am probably talking about 100K vs 0-10K of debt.

Your math blows. You have to pay cost of living in Chicago so don't factor it out. Columbia/NYU would be $75k more, which IMHO is reasonable to take if you have no desire to leave NYC for 3 years.

I am not sure why the math is off. Go to CLS in 2011 is 25K tuition+15K in living expenses (and that may be low) 40*3=120-20K for savings=100K

1 Year deferred Northwestern OK tuition+ 15K*3=45K (may be a bit low)-20K already saved-25K in additional 2011 savings (working and living at home)=0K. My family is not rich but if it comes down to additional 5-10K a year at the end, I will get the help. Hence, 0K

Money that you've saved or that your family is putting in doesn't detract from the cost you have to pay. You shouldn't subtract that from the total numbers. I'd imagine people on this thread were under the impression you didn't have to pay rent or something while you were in Chicago.


What you've got here is:

CLS = (25k tuition + 23k living expenses) *3 = ~145k. Realistically more like 160k when you factor in the interest and fees on your loan that you pay while in school.

NU = (0 tuition + 23k living expenses) = ~70k, realistically 80k when you factor in the other stuff.

So CLS would cost you $80k more per year. I don't think that's totally unreasonable if you really want CLS.

[BrightLine]

First, thanks for the additonal responses. A couple of hours ago I was 95% CLS and now I am still thinking. When it was NYU vs NU I was heavily leaning NU, but the CLS offer changed things in my mind, and perhaps my valuing CLS lay prestige that much is petulant.

Some additional facts

• I have no ties at all to Northwestern or Chicago and did not really expect to get in there (no interview, generic application)
  COL would be zero debt because if I were not to defer law school I would have saved total about 50K, at that point my family would help me with the rest 20K or so over 3 years

The bottom line is that I am probably talking about 100K vs 0-10K of debt.

Your math blows. You have to pay cost of living in Chicago so don't factor it out. Columbia/NYU would be $75k more, which IMHO is reasonable to take if you have no desire to leave NYC for 3 years.

I am not sure why the math is off. Go to CLS in 2011 is 25K tuition+15K in living expenses (and that may be low) 40*3=120-20K for savings=100K

1 Year deferred Northwestern OK tuition+ 15K*3=45K (may be a bit low)-20K already saved-25K in additional 2011 savings (working and living at home)=0K. My family is not rich but if it comes down to additional 5-10K a year at the end, I will get the help. Hence, 0K

Money that you've saved or that your family is putting in doesn't detract from the cost you have to pay. You shouldn't subtract that from the total numbers. I'd imagine people on this thread were under the impression you didn't have to pay rent or something while you were in Chicago.


What you've got here is:

CLS = (25k tuition + 23k living expenses) *3 = ~145k. Realistically more like 160k when you factor in the interest and fees on your loan that you pay while in school.

NU = (0 tuition + 23k living expenses) = ~70k, realistically 80k when you factor in the other stuff.

So CLS would cost you $80k more per year. I don't think that's totally unreasonable if you really want CLS.

Money saved/family doesn't accrue interest.

[rayiner]

Your math blows. You have to pay cost of living in Chicago so don't factor it out. Columbia/NYU would be $75k more, which IMHO is reasonable to take if you have no desire to leave NYC for 3 years.

I am not sure why the math is off. Go to CLS in 2011 is 25K tuition+15K in living expenses (and that may be low) 40*3=120-20K for savings=100K

1 Year deferred Northwestern OK tuition+ 15K*3=45K (may be a bit low)-20K already saved-25K in additional 2011 savings (working and living at home)=0K. My family is not rich but if it comes down to additional 5-10K a year at the end, I will get the help. Hence, 0K

Money that you've saved or that your family is putting in doesn't detract from the cost you have to pay. You shouldn't subtract that from the total numbers. I'd imagine people on this thread were under the impression you didn't have to pay rent or something while you were in Chicago.


What you've got here is:

CLS = (25k tuition + 23k living expenses) *3 = ~145k. Realistically more like 160k when you factor in the interest and fees on your loan that you pay while in school.

NU = (0 tuition + 23k living expenses) = ~70k, realistically 80k when you factor in the other stuff.

So CLS would cost you $80k more per year. I don't think that's totally unreasonable if you really want CLS.

Money saved/family doesn't accrue interest.

1) so what
2) the could be earning interest instead