Mid West Showdown Forum

[BDP]

My cycle has been kind of crappy. I am from Utah and would like to work in Utah after I graduate. I was W/L and rejected by the two Utah schools (Utah and BYU). I went did my undergrad at BYU and majored in Corporate Finance, and I think I would like to work in this field as a lawyer. I am slightly older, 26. With a wife and a 1 year old son.

The school I have been accepted are Minnesota with $20k/year scholarship and Indiana Bloomington with $40k/year scholarship.

After graduation and a few years of work experience I want to work in Utah. My Dad is a founding partner at a small law firm in Salt Lake City and after a few years of work experience I want to work go work with him (read job waiting).

I want to work in Big Law for 2-3 years for the experience/training. I have saved closed to $175,000 that I can use to fund the next three years. However I don't want to through it all away. I earned every cent and it wasn't easy. The advantages and disadvantages that I can think of for each school are:

Minnesota
Advantages
1. Stronger reputation--UMN has been ranked in the top 25 for a much longer time than UIB and I believe has a better reputation.
2. Better job prospects for Big Law--tying into point #1.
Disadvantages
1. I do not want to spend all my money. I figure with tuition and COL for 3 years it will cost close to $220,000 for our family (I will have another child during law school and assuming a 10% tuition increase every year). Working in the summers I will probably come out ahead $20,000 give or take. Please just accept the numbers as fact.
2. I do not want to freeze my ass off for 6 months out of the year, and my wife even more so.

Indiana
Advantages
1. Money. The COL is about the same as Utah, maybe even a little less. With a close to full tuition scholarship I would graduate law school with close to $200,000 in the bank.
Disadvantages
1. Reputation. While Indiana is a good school it does not have the reputation that Minnesota has
2. Big Law prospects. Again Indiana has a good reputation, but I think it will be much harder to find a job at a bigger law firm than Minnesota.
3. Tornadoes. Indiana is the #1 state for tornadoes. My wife has an irrational fear of tornadoes and would be stressed out of her mind every time a gust of wind came up.

If anyone can think of other points to add to this list I will update.

Let's VOTE!

[bk1]

Neither of these gives you much of a shot at biglaw.

Pick whether you'd rather be in MN or IA for a few years. If no preference, then follow the money to IUB.

If you really want biglaw, retake/reapply.

[AP-375]

Fellow BYU grad here, similar family situation, minus the waiting job.
Just out of curiosity, how did you end up with only these options?
Retake/reapply not an option?

[BlakcMajikc]

Neither of these gives you much of a shot at biglaw.

Pick whether you'd rather be in MN or IA for a few years. If no preference, then follow the money to IUB.

If you really want biglaw, retake/reapply.

I can't imagine that the OP actually means biglaw as in nlj250 etc because he states he wants to head back or work in Utah.
I would think Minnesota would have better Utah connections, but that is just a guess.

OP, do your research and see which places better in Utah. If there is a substantial difference, then go with the school that school. If not, then I vote Indiana.

[NancyBotwin]

Tornadoes. Indiana is the #1 state for tornadoes.

Um, according to what?

I came to the midwest from AZ, also fearing tornadoes. They are just about as likely in either city (Minneapolis or Bloomington).

Fun facts: 88% of tornadoes are weak and die down within 10 minutes. These 88% are responsible for only 1% of tornado-related deaths. 11% are stronger, last around 20+ minutes, and cause 30% of the deaths. The last 1% are the strongest and do the most damage, but only 1% of tornadoes to ever occur are like that. 1%. Most deaths/injuries happen to people in mobile homes or people who were caught outside or otherwise didn't hear/see the warning signals.

Your odds of actually being caught in a tornado, even one of the 88%, are very very slim. Get a NOAA radio, make sure you have a basement or other place to go if one occurs (again, very slim chance), and you'll be fine.

[bk1]

I can't imagine that the OP actually means biglaw as in nlj250 etc because he states he wants to head back or work in Utah.
I would think Minnesota would have better Utah connections, but that is just a guess.

OP, do your research and see which places better in Utah. If there is a substantial difference, then go with the school that school. If not, then I vote Indiana.

I'm pretty sure that's what it means. OP has a definite job waiting in a few years and wanted biglaw to "learn skills." OP isn't looking for Utah biglaw in 5 years, OP is looking for a job at dad's firm in 5 years.

[BlakcMajikc]

I can't imagine that the OP actually means biglaw as in nlj250 etc because he states he wants to head back or work in Utah.
I would think Minnesota would have better Utah connections, but that is just a guess.

OP, do your research and see which places better in Utah. If there is a substantial difference, then go with the school that school. If not, then I vote Indiana.

I'm pretty sure that's what it means. OP has a definite job waiting in a few years and wanted biglaw to "learn skills." OP isn't looking for Utah biglaw in 5 years, OP is looking for a job at dad's firm in 5 years.

gotcha... thats what happens when I skim. :/

This is still weird though... Utah or BYU wouldn't have given the OP better biglaw prospects over IUB or Minn anyway. That's what had me thinking in that Utah pigeonhole.

Then, my advice is retake/reapply

[Tanicius]

Dude, you have a job waiting for you. You can get the experience to work in a small firm from almost anywhere, and in your case especially the distance of your job after graduation from your dad's shop isn't going to matter at all. Take the money.

[ndirish2010]

Retake and reapply to BYU and Utah again I think. Not worth going to either of these schools if you want to go back to Utah.

[2things2]

Tornadoes. Indiana is the #1 state for tornadoes.

Um, according to what?

I came to the midwest from AZ, also fearing tornadoes. They are just about as likely in either city (Minneapolis or Bloomington).

Fun facts: 88% of tornadoes are weak and die down within 10 minutes. These 88% are responsible for only 1% of tornado-related deaths. 11% are stronger, last around 20+ minutes, and cause 30% of the deaths. The last 1% are the strongest and do the most damage, but only 1% of tornadoes to ever occur are like that. 1%. Most deaths/injuries happen to people in mobile homes or people who were caught outside or otherwise didn't hear/see the warning signals.

Your odds of actually being caught in a tornado, even one of the 88%, are very very slim. Get a NOAA radio, make sure you have a basement or other place to go if one occurs (again, very slim chance), and you'll be fine.

tell that to the people who get caught in tornadoes!

[Flips88]

I think Oklahoma/Kansas lay claim to king of tornadoes. I was 10 years old when Moore and OKC were hit by the largest tornado in recorded history. So I don't really think of Indiana as inclement weather prone. Minneapolis is prone to heavy snow from like November through March so there's that to consider along with the mid-20s highs for all winter.

You seem to be in a very strong financial situation. Will your wife work while you're in LS? I obviously think Minnesota has the better reputation of the two, but honestly it comes down to your preference and your willingness to spend the money on UMN or not.

I'm also very very confused as to how you estimate CoA at UMN to be $220,000. CoA via their website is $55,000 for non-residents, so times 3 years is $165,000 minus $20k/yr in scholarship = $105,000. Where do you get a number more than twice that size?


ETA: I'd probably say IUB, especially since you have a job lined up in SLC with your dad's firm afterwards and a family to consider.

[glewz]

Dude...go with the money at IUB, esp since you have a kid, I don't think it's that good of an idea to take chances for two schools that have marginal differences in prestige.

[Sandro]

IUb, clearly. Money in the bank !

[TommyK]

I doubt there is substantial difference in reputation between UMN and IUB. UMN may have better biglaw hiring %, but that's largely because it's based in the twin cities. Once you leave the midwest, you're going to have to leverage your personal connections and network your butt off to find a big job back in Utah. Fortunately you're a BYU grad and I think the mormon mafia connection will help you network very effectively back home.

As a somewhat related question - do you think biglaw would actually be relevant training for your small law firm job back UT? If you really want to gain some experience in the kinds of practice you would be doing at your dad's firm, a small or medium firm may be better for giving you relevant and meaningful work. Just a thought...

I'd go with the money. No stip, big money wins every time. Good luck.

[Flips88]

I doubt there is substantial difference in reputation between UMN and IUB. UMN may have better biglaw hiring %, but that's largely because it's based in the twin cities. Once you leave the midwest, you're going to have to leverage your personal connections and network your butt off to find a big job back in Utah. Fortunately you're a BYU grad and I think the mormon mafia connection will help you network very effectively back home.

As a somewhat related question - do you think biglaw would actually be relevant training for your small law firm job back UT? If you really want to gain some experience in the kinds of practice you would be doing at your dad's firm, a small or medium firm may be better for giving you relevant and meaningful work. Just a thought...

I'd go with the money. No stip, big money wins every time. Good luck.

I think as a legal market/city: Minneapolis, MN>>>Bloomington, IN. The OP already has a job lined up in Utah, but wants a couple years of larger firm work before returning. I think UMN has the better legal market, but $$$ is hard to turn down.

[Sandro]

11% of UMN Class of 2010 got biglaw. IU was under 10. Why would you take on all that extra debt for such a small jump in biglaw placement ? Dont go to either school with biglaw as your goal. With a job lined up it makes no sense to pay all that extra money for UMN. Median at UMN is probably in the same boat as Median at IUb.

[TommyK]

I doubt there is substantial difference in reputation between UMN and IUB. UMN may have better biglaw hiring %, but that's largely because it's based in the twin cities. Once you leave the midwest, you're going to have to leverage your personal connections and network your butt off to find a big job back in Utah. Fortunately you're a BYU grad and I think the mormon mafia connection will help you network very effectively back home.

As a somewhat related question - do you think biglaw would actually be relevant training for your small law firm job back UT? If you really want to gain some experience in the kinds of practice you would be doing at your dad's firm, a small or medium firm may be better for giving you relevant and meaningful work. Just a thought...

I'd go with the money. No stip, big money wins every time. Good luck.

I think as a legal market/city: Minneapolis, MN>>>Bloomington, IN. The OP already has a job lined up in Utah, but wants a couple years of larger firm work before returning. I think UMN has the better legal market, but $$$ is hard to turn down.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. The increase of UMN biglaw hiring was largely a function of geography, not of some sort of fictional national prestige or reputation. I get wanting to work biglaw for a couple of years to make some bank and replenish his substantive savings, but as training for small law? Yieesh - sounds like a silly idea to me. But I'm just a ridiculous 0L.

[Lwoods]

Tornadoes. Indiana is the #1 state for tornadoes.

Um, according to what?

I came to the midwest from AZ, also fearing tornadoes. They are just about as likely in either city (Minneapolis or Bloomington).

Fun facts: 88% of tornadoes are weak and die down within 10 minutes. These 88% are responsible for only 1% of tornado-related deaths. 11% are stronger, last around 20+ minutes, and cause 30% of the deaths. The last 1% are the strongest and do the most damage, but only 1% of tornadoes to ever occur are like that. 1%. Most deaths/injuries happen to people in mobile homes or people who were caught outside or otherwise didn't hear/see the warning signals.

Your odds of actually being caught in a tornado, even one of the 88%, are very very slim. Get a NOAA radio, make sure you have a basement or other place to go if one occurs (again, very slim chance), and you'll be fine.

I lived in Indiana for 18 years and never once saw a tornado. You definitely don't want to mess around with tornadoes (if there's a warning, go to the basement and wait it out), but I'd be more afraid of driving in the blizzards of MN.

I say follow the money at IUB and wait out the waitlist.