Princeton Review rankings - Chapman getting props??? Forum

[snowboarder2713]

I like the Princeton Review rankings but this got me off-guard. Chapman Law was founded in 1995 and it's getting these types of accolades from PR.

Chapman University's
Best Law Schools Rankings

Click on the list name to see all the schools on that list or
click the category name to see all the lists in the category.
Rank List
#7 Best Classroom Experience
#1 Best Quality of Life
#5 Professors Rock (Legally Speaking)

And there average stats are

Average LSAT: 158
Average UGrad GPA: 3.19

Is Chapman moving up? Will this be a tier 3 school next year (it's numbers rival Southwestern Law School a current tier 3 school) and potential bottom tier 2 during the next decade?

[Oklahoma Mike]

Third tier in the near future is certainly possible, second tier within a decade is extremely unlikely. To move up that much I think the school would need to consciously game the rankings, and there's only so much you can do in that area.
40% of the US News rank comes from reputation- it could certainly do some things to improve its reputation but not to such a tremendous extent. Without huge amounts of money to very publicly bring in big name profs.

Expenditures per student would also take money, as would offering more scholarships to try and up their median LSAT and UGPA. (though those are probably the two biggest things a school can do to improve their ranking)

Additionally they can improve their placement office to increase employment rates upon graduation- they are in the high 80s now so they have room to improve but I don't know if it's enough that it would make a big impact on rankings.

[JOE!]

I wouldn't say that 2nd tier in the next decade is out of the question. Chapman is very well respected around Orange County, and is actively trying to build up their stats (happen to know the admissions office staff pretty well). Also, they DO have huge amounts of money to bring in big name faculty - no offense Oklahoma Mike, but it seems to me that you're just talking about 4th tier schools in general, without having researched Chapman specifically.

I don't want to post the actual e-mail, but Dean Eastman from Chapman recently sent around an e-mail about speaking at the Council of Chief Judges in New Orleans, and talked about some of the positive feedback he got from some of the judges there. He also routinely sends e-mails regarding the papers / presentations given by the faculty.

For now, I'd say that Chapman is definitely the best law school between LA and San Diego. UC Irvine's law school will make things interesting... we'll see what happens there.

EDIT: Forgot to put in this link re: Princeton Review rankings - http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... rev-7.html

[Oklahoma Mike]

I have looked at Chapman specifically. While their reputation may in fact be getting better, and while they may in fact be a much better school than their reputation scores indicate- they are well below the 4th tier average. They fall right in the middle for peer reputation score and they are tied for third worst with Texas Wesleyan and Appalachian.

Of course they are doing things to improve their ranking, but so are other schools. My big question is who they would displace. The schools floating at the top of third tier and bottom of second are all fighting hard to be in the top 100.
If they raised their employment rate from the high 80s to the high 90s AND increased their UGPA and their expenditure per student they could bump up to third tier without a huge difference in reputation scores (they would have about the same numbers as Florida international) The challenge with raising their UGPA or their median LSAT is that they already give scholarships to a third of students with the average aid being about 15 grand.
If they do all those things short term to move to tier three and then the reputation scores take a few years to catch up with the improvements it probably still wouldn't be enough to bump up to the top 100 within a decade. They would have to move from a 1.6 in both categories to an average over 2.5 The only school in the top hundred with reputation scores below that is Pacific, and their reputation has been improving as well so it is unlikely their scores will remain that low. Even if they are bumped out of the top 100, you've got Syracuse, Albany, Howard, Arkansas, Mississippi, Michigan State, Vermont, Gonzaga and others that are all just shy of being top 100. Some of them may not be working to crack the top 100, but I'm betting most are.

While it is certainly possible for Chapman to crack the top 100 in the next decade, it doesn't seem likely as there is a lot of competition doing the same things to move up that Chapman is doing, but they are starting from a better position.

[JOE!]

I stand corrrected, you obviously have done your research. I suppose it's my own lack of research on competing schools around the country that caused our difference of opinion - you were thinking nationally, and I was thinking of Chapman in a regional context (which doesn't really apply to the ranking system).

In my defense, I didn't say they would make top 100 in the next decade, I said that it isn't out of the question, and I do stand by my opinion that Chapman is the best school in Orange County - so no matter what comparable schools are doing nationally, if you are going to a non-top-100 school and want to practice in Orange County, I would go there.

[Oklahoma Mike]

I do think Chapman is a great option if you want to work in Orange County. T5, Berkeley, USC and UCLA (in that order) would probably be the best options for landing a great job in Orange County, but those schools are out of reach for most people. I think that if you can't get into one of those 8 and you want to work in the OC, then Chapman may be as good an option as anywhere else.

[hobbla]

Yale, with its incomparable law faculty, law students, and reputation, ranks 14th according to Princeton Review.

You have to take PR's rankings with a grain of salt... that company doesn't seem to have it together in general (their LSAT prep book is sub-par to say the least).

[Oklahoma Mike]

yeah, their rankings seem to be looking at a lot of things other than just "what is the best school academically"
Quality of life, etc. play a big part into their rankings which seem to be even more subjective than US News

[JOE!]

If I read correctly (btw, just now realized that's what IIRC means... go figure), Princeton Review's rankings are based on student feedback. Does anyone know if this is correct? Because, although this doesn't really have an effect on employment prospects, I think it is important to go somewhere that you'll be [relatively] happy. I wouldn't be nearly as motivated if I went somewhere that didn't fit me well.

[Oklahoma Mike]

They don't release all the methodology- but the rankings are largely based on student surveys. So, I think they are a good place to look for quality of life type things.
Which is also why I understand Yale not being ranked #1. It is a great school with great faculty- but New Haven isn't the most beautiful place in the world.

[Fly]

I like what Princeton Review is trying to do -- they're trying to get at the actual experience of students, instead of relying on the opinions of outsiders as in US News' reputation survey. The whole notion that the US News survey takers are going to have intimate knowledge of over 200 institutions is simply absurd.

They certainly have different uses, it seems: PR is better for answering "Where will I most enjoy my three years," US News is probably better for answering "What school will get me a good job?"

[gordo105]

I'm a former chapman law student. Surely the princeton review rankings are a bit questionable given the placement of some schools. I have to say though that the categories where chapman performed well (quality of life, professors and class room experience) are the same areas where I've personally found that chapman excels.

The professors really were awesome. Noted scholars in their respective fields from interesting backgrounds. Most were quite brilliant, personable and engaging. Professor Eastman (now the dean) is a nationally recognized conservative scholar, clerked for the supreme court and is absolutely brilliant but also an approachable and engaging lecturer.

The quality of life really was great. Right in quiet old town orange with great lunch options. But also close to the beach and night life in Newport. Also, Los Angeles and San Diego are close. The law school facilities were more than adequate and the law school building is beautiful.

Since chapman was the only law school i went to i can't really say that it's better or worse than any other law school. I can say that it's hard to imagine the learning environment and education at most tier 2 schools being much (if at all) better than what i experienced at chapman...

Oh and i found a good job with good pay before i even passed the bar.

[Arctura]

Just in case if anyone is still wondering, Chapman Law is now in Tier 3.

[Oklahoma Mike]

Chapman has done a great job to improve their reputation- I think they will stay a third tier and not drop back down to fourth- though I think it will still be a while for them to have a shot at cracking the top 100

[lawislaw2000]

From their administration:

The move up the US News ladder occurred in the first year of Dean Eastman's tenure as Dean of the law school, after serving for nearly a decade as one of the school's most respected professors and scholars. "My plan was to move into the Third Tier by 2009 and into the 2nd Tier within two to three years thereafter. Given our strong push into the Third Tier one year early, I continue to be extremely optimistic about our swift move up into the company of other top ABA law schools."

Here are some of the key reasons why Chapman has solidified its ranking position and will continue to rise in the ranks:


* 72% CA Bar pass rate in the most recent summer exam (July 2007) which puts Chapman in the company of a number of higher-tier schools in California. This result is 125% of the CA jurisdictions pass rate, a Tier 1 result.

* An enviable faculty that includes:
o Four former Supreme Court Clerks, with two more joining as visitors in January 2009
o One of two law schools in the country with a Nobel Laureate on its faculty
o A number of recent lateral hires from top-Tier schools

* Major funding committed to an Academic Achievement program and Early Bar Prep program to help Chapman students pass the bar on their first attempt.

* Three top ten national rankings in the 2008 Princeton Review survey:
o #1 Quality of Life
o #5 Professors Rock (legally speaking)
o #7 Classroom experience

* An ongoing lecture series that brings national scholars from noted law schools such as Harvard and Yale to debate and discuss cutting edge issues (from all ends of the philosophical spectrum) with Chapman professors.

* Strong results against the nation’s top law schools in our Moot Court and Trial Advocacy competition programs.


Dean Eastman added, “While we are happy that others are recognizing the hidden gem that is Chapman, we will not rest here. Our aspirations are, quite simply, to be recognized as one of the best opportunities in legal education.”

Other important factors that play a role in Chapman's rapid success:

* Student Faculty Ratio of 12.6 to 1=A Tier 1 number
* Median LSAT=Comparable to other Tier 2 schools
* Acceptance Rate=Tier 2
* Student employment at 9 months=Tier 2

[SoCal123]

The Bar pass rate seems to agree with Princeton Review...

http://www.chapman.edu/law/about/2008_bar_results.asp

I don't know if there is any statistical significance to that relationship but it is interesting.

[A'nold]

Chapman is retarded because I asked them for a fee waiver and they said no. My numbers aren't fantastic in general, but great for them (160, 3.2ish). That is above or at their 75th (I think) for LSAT scores and around their median in GPA. I would probably get some money from them, yet no fee waiver even after being asked......

[SoCal123]

Chapman is retarded because I asked them for a fee waiver and they said no. My numbers aren't fantastic in general, but great for them (160, 3.2ish). That is above or at their 75th (I think) for LSAT scores and around their median in GPA. I would probably get some money from them, yet no fee waiver even after being asked......

A'nold,

Your GPA is a tiny bit below Chapman's median (3.44) and that may be the reason they did not give you a fee waiver. However, you are correct that your LSAT is above their 75% and well above their median (their 75% LSAT is 159 and their median LSAT is 158) so I agree that it does not make sense for them to deny you a fee waiver - especially because Chapman tends to worship LSAT scores in the 160s and has been known to be easier on people who underperformed GPA wise. Chapman has been getting more applications lately so maybe they don't need the numbers like they once did.

Whatever the reason for their decision, I think they are making a mistake not giving you a fee waiver. Let's hope that Irvine comes through for you and you can send your acceptance letter from Irvine to Chapman with a note that says "thanks for nothing".

[SoCal123]

I do think Chapman is a great option if you want to work in Orange County. T5, Berkeley, USC and UCLA (in that order) would probably be the best options for landing a great job in Orange County, but those schools are out of reach for most people. I think that if you can't get into one of those 8 and you want to work in the OC, then Chapman may be as good an option as anywhere else.

Best schools to land a job in the OC = T5, Berkeley, IRVINE, USC, UCLA, then Chapman or maybe San Diego. Things are different in the OC now that Irvine is on the scene. I know that people may think Irvine should be below USC and UCLA and elsewhere I would agree 100%, but Irvine grads will do better than USC or UCLA grads in the OC, IMHO.

[ria29]

I do think Chapman is a great option if you want to work in Orange County. T5, Berkeley, USC and UCLA (in that order) would probably be the best options for landing a great job in Orange County, but those schools are out of reach for most people. I think that if you can't get into one of those 8 and you want to work in the OC, then Chapman may be as good an option as anywhere else.

Best schools to land a job in the OC = T5, Berkeley, IRVINE, USC, UCLA, then Chapman or maybe San Diego. Things are different in the OC now that Irvine is on the scene. I know that people may think Irvine should be below USC and UCLA and elsewhere I would agree 100%, but Irvine grads will do better than USC or UCLA grads in the OC, IMHO.

How so? If anyone else has any input that would be great. I ask because I have been deliberating about Irvine and Chapman myself as I am considering staying in the OC for personal reasons. Thanks.

[SoCal123]

I do think Chapman is a great option if you want to work in Orange County. T5, Berkeley, USC and UCLA (in that order) would probably be the best options for landing a great job in Orange County, but those schools are out of reach for most people. I think that if you can't get into one of those 8 and you want to work in the OC, then Chapman may be as good an option as anywhere else.

Best schools to land a job in the OC = T5, Berkeley, IRVINE, USC, UCLA, then Chapman or maybe San Diego. Things are different in the OC now that Irvine is on the scene. I know that people may think Irvine should be below USC and UCLA and elsewhere I would agree 100%, but Irvine grads will do better than USC or UCLA grads in the OC, IMHO.

How so? If anyone else has any input that would be great. I ask because I have been deliberating about Irvine and Chapman myself as I am considering staying in the OC for personal reasons. Thanks.

If you get into Irvine, pick Irvine. It is that simple. Irvine will give you free tuition ALL THREE years and has more than fifty employers already lined up for OCI.

Chapman is a good school but it is no Irvine.

[ria29]

If you get into Irvine, pick Irvine. It is that simple. Irvine will give you free tuition ALL THREE years and has more than fifty employers already lined up for OCI.

Chapman is a good school but it is no Irvine.

Thanks for the info... source please? Link if possible.

[SoCal123]

I saw this on the UC Irvine law school website.

I don't have time to dig for it now, but you can start here:

--LinkRemoved--

Good Luck!

[SoCal123]

I found the part about free tuition. The OCI part is on there somewhere...

--LinkRemoved--

[SoCal123]

OK, this data taken from http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com pretty much says it all. It is current as of today. Chapman is an excellent school but Irvine is in a different league.

LSAT GPA Status
167 3.4 Accepted A
167 3.46 Accepted A
166 3.74 Accepted A
169 4.03 Accepted A
165 3.47 Accepted A
170 3.24 Accepted A
167 3.96 Accepted A
165 3.66 Accepted
164 3.1 Accepted
165 3.72 Accepted
167 3.98 Accepted
166 Accepted
167 3.54 Accepted
168 3.65 Accepted
160 3.31 Accepted
167 Accepted
166 3.32 Accepted W
163 3.7 Waitlisted
167 4 Waitlisted
165 3.44 Waitlisted
165 3.51 Waitlisted
167 3.54 Waitlisted
167 3.98 Waitlisted