NYU v. UC Berkeley v. UVa ($$) Forum

[marlow]

Although I'm entering law school interested in public international law, I'm really open-minded as to what I want to do after. I'm wondering whether or not paying sticker at NYU along with the high cost of living is worth it considering the scholarship from UVa and (potential) matching scholarship from Berkeley. I'm not set on NYC, although I think I would prefer the East coast. My concerns about Berkeley are the West coast thing and the overall UC system right now considering California is broke. From an overall perspective and keeping these things in mind, any suggestions/comments as to which school would be the best bet? Thanks for all of your help!

[showNprove]

Definitely UVa. I guarantee you that someone will say that NYU's LRAP will make it worth it. But once you get to NYU, you're going to realize that there's no such thing as public international law--or at least it has no jobs for law students--so the LRAP will be useless for you. Instead, you'll end up in a private sector job you could've gotten from UVa with a lot less debt.

[005618502]

How much did UVA give you? If were talking 50, 75, or 90K then you shouldnt even be thinking of anywhere else. UVA with a large scholarship, in my eyes, is much better then sticker and high COL at NYU.

Great options though!

[marlow]

How much did UVA give you? If were talking 50, 75, or 90K then you shouldnt even be thinking of anywhere else. UVA with a large scholarship, in my eyes, is much better then sticker and high COL at NYU.

Great options though!

UVa offered me 75, thanks for the advice!

[worldtraveler]

What do you mean public international law?

[20160810]

What do you mean public international law?

I suspect she means that she's a 0L who had a totes amazing semester in Prague and thus wants to do "international law," whatever that might turn out to be.

In any event, OP, it seems like the smartest move is clearly to take the money at UVA, but all things being equal, I'd go to Berkeley, because Go Bears. Also, if that's a self-tar, you can be assured you'll likely be a Berkeley 9, maybe even a Berkeley 10 once your fellow students properly don their Berkeley Goggles. There's something to be said for maximizing marginal competitive advantage.

[marlow]

What do you mean public international law?

I suspect she means that she's a 0L who had a totes amazing semester in Prague and thus wants to do "international law," whatever that might turn out to be.

In any event, OP, it seems like the smartest move is clearly to take the money at UVA, but all things being equal, I'd go to Berkeley, because Go Bears. Also, if that's a self-tar, you can be assured you'll likely be a Berkeley 9, maybe even a Berkeley 10 once your fellow students properly don their Berkeley Goggles. There's something to be said for maximizing marginal competitive advantage.

I guess I should expect condescending douchebags on this website. I spent 3 months in Ghana working for a human rights NGO and two summers interning at the UN and if that makes me naive for being interested in international law, fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_international_law

[Bumi]

Doesn't Berkeley match scholarships from the rest of the T13? So shouldn't the B option be B ($$)? And does that change anything?

[marlow]

Good point. I applied for the matching scholarship through the Berkeley admitted students website. But from what I understand, they don't always match the amount exactly, and I'm not sure how close they get. In either case, it seems that a lot of people ignore Berkeley altogether in this trio and get straight to comparing NYU and UVa. I'm not sure if $$ would change that.

[Bumi]

In either case, it seems that a lot of people ignore Berkeley altogether in this trio and get straight to comparing NYU and UVa. I'm not sure if $$ would change that.

In my mind it would, especially since you aren't (for now) a NYC-or-bust biglaw gunner. Also because I personally love the Bay Area much more than I love Central Virginia. Then again, there's probably a lot more of intergalactic potterymaking law, or whatever it is, in NYC than in the Bay Area, to the extent that that matters. I think the polltakers are wise to think that it doesn't.

[worldtraveler]

What do you mean public international law?

I suspect she means that she's a 0L who had a totes amazing semester in Prague and thus wants to do "international law," whatever that might turn out to be.

In any event, OP, it seems like the smartest move is clearly to take the money at UVA, but all things being equal, I'd go to Berkeley, because Go Bears. Also, if that's a self-tar, you can be assured you'll likely be a Berkeley 9, maybe even a Berkeley 10 once your fellow students properly don their Berkeley Goggles. There's something to be said for maximizing marginal competitive advantage.

I guess I should expect condescending douchebags on this website. I spent 3 months in Ghana working for a human rights NGO and two summers interning at the UN and if that makes me naive for being interested in international law, fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_international_law

My question wasn't condescending at all. I was asking because public international law means different things. You did say if you wanted diplomacy, NGO advocacy, litigation.... Some schools are better at certain types of this law than others.

These are all very different things. I'm in the same field as you, and probably could have given you some good advice since I've gotten internships in this field. However, if you're going to call me a douchebag, then I'd prefer not to help you. I'd also advise you not to go to Berkeley if you're going to get that uppity over a simple question.

[sundance95]

Follow.teh.money.

PS: 3 months in Afrique l'Ouest and 2 UN internships don't make you UNnaive. Follow your dreams and all, but at least take money in case you can't catch that unicorn of a jerb.

PPS: Thanks for the Wikipedia link, if it's on Wikipedia it must exist/be true.

[marlow]

What do you mean public international law?

I suspect she means that she's a 0L who had a totes amazing semester in Prague and thus wants to do "international law," whatever that might turn out to be.

In any event, OP, it seems like the smartest move is clearly to take the money at UVA, but all things being equal, I'd go to Berkeley, because Go Bears. Also, if that's a self-tar, you can be assured you'll likely be a Berkeley 9, maybe even a Berkeley 10 once your fellow students properly don their Berkeley Goggles. There's something to be said for maximizing marginal competitive advantage.

I guess I should expect condescending douchebags on this website. I spent 3 months in Ghana working for a human rights NGO and two summers interning at the UN and if that makes me naive for being interested in international law, fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_international_law

My question wasn't condescending at all. I was asking because public international law means different things. You did say if you wanted diplomacy, NGO advocacy, litigation.... Some schools are better at certain types of this law than others.

These are all very different things. I'm in the same field as you, and probably could have given you some good advice since I've gotten internships in this field. However, if you're going to call me a douchebag, then I'd prefer not to help you. I'd also advise you not to go to Berkeley if you're going to get that uppity over a simple question.

Hey worldtraveler, sorry for the confusion! That comment was not directed at you at all, it was directed at the poster below you. Reading it again I can see how it seemed that way.

As for which area of public international law I'd be interested in, I'm not quite sure yet. Any suggestions of which schools excel in different areas would be fantastic. And I didn't realize you went to Berkeley! Can you tell me a little about your internships?

Sorry again for the confusion!

[unreality]

Why aren't you considering UChicago? That's where I would go. Do you live in Miami?

[marlow]

Why aren't you considering UChicago? That's where I would go. Do you live in Miami?

I'm pretty liberal and thought I might be a bit isolated there. Plus it seemed a bit corporate-interested from what I've researched. And yeah, I go to the University of Miami.

[Frankie55]

Why aren't you considering UChicago? That's where I would go. Do you live in Miami?

I'm pretty liberal and thought I might be a bit isolated there. Plus it seemed a bit corporate-interested from what I've researched. And yeah, I go to the University of Miami.

Any Chicago students want to chime on whether the "conservative atmosphere" is really that imposing?

[paulinaporizkova]

What do you mean public international law?

I suspect she means that she's a 0L who had a totes amazing semester in Prague and thus wants to do "international law," whatever that might turn out to be.

In any event, OP, it seems like the smartest move is clearly to take the money at UVA, but all things being equal, I'd go to Berkeley, because Go Bears. Also, if that's a self-tar, you can be assured you'll likely be a Berkeley 9, maybe even a Berkeley 10 once your fellow students properly don their Berkeley Goggles. There's something to be said for maximizing marginal competitive advantage.

I guess I should expect condescending douchebags on this website. I spent 3 months in Ghana working for a human rights NGO and two summers interning at the UN and if that makes me naive for being interested in international law, fine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_international_law

ooweeeeee

[Frankie55]

Also--is UVa better than Chicago for NYC biglaw? Or is it more of a self-selection thing?

[paulinaporizkova]

Why aren't you considering UChicago? That's where I would go. Do you live in Miami?

I'm pretty liberal and thought I might be a bit isolated there. Plus it seemed a bit corporate-interested from what I've researched. And yeah, I go to the University of Miami.

Any Chicago students want to chime on whether the "conservative atmosphere" is really that imposing?

huh? i've never heard that chi was conservative. i've heard their students are kind of crazy and depressive, but conservative? i mean certainly no more than UVa is, if you are worried about political climate (to the OP)

[Frankie55]

Why aren't you considering UChicago? That's where I would go. Do you live in Miami?

I'm pretty liberal and thought I might be a bit isolated there. Plus it seemed a bit corporate-interested from what I've researched. And yeah, I go to the University of Miami.

Any Chicago students want to chime on whether the "conservative atmosphere" is really that imposing?

huh? i've never heard that chi was conservative. i've heard their students are kind of crazy and depressive, but conservative? i mean certainly no more than UVa is, if you are worried about political climate (to the OP)

Yeah, I thought it was limited to the undergrad economics department. Didn't imagine it'd be an issue.

[paulinaporizkova]

Also--is UVa better than Chicago for NYC biglaw? Or is it more of a self-selection thing?

i'd guess UVa is better just because of proximity and the fact that uchi is in its own huge city. though who knows anymore because chicago biglaw took a nosedive after the economy crashed a couple years ago

then again, what i'm saying is that Chi students don't want to go to NYC as much, not that they can't if they don't want to. that makes answering your question tricky

[paulinaporizkova]

Yeah, I thought it was limited to the undergrad economics department. Didn't imagine it'd be an issue.

ohh because of milton friedman. lol. no i don't think that extends to the rest of the school, and i'm guessing the "conservative" atmosphere is more of a fiscal conservatism and nothing else. i mean, uchi is the best school in the (huuuuge) chicago area - there's no way it's a conservative campus.

[pixytree]

I'm considering the same options (with UMich thrown in the mix). I nixed NYU early on because they didn't give me money and the cost of living is rid. I'd also much rather be in a low-key town during law school and travel elsewhere for internships than deal with city life (and I've lived in the city most of my life). Did you apply for one of the public interest scholarships? That could make a difference. UVA is a great school (did undergrad there) and the COL is much lower than Cal or NYU. It also invests a good amount in international and human rights law. Cal has smaller classes, seems to invest more in its students and fosters a less competitive environment than UVA. If all other factors are equal for you (weather, class size, clinics, region, rank, etc.), then it might be best to wait to hear from Berk regarding your scholarship.

[marlow]

I'm considering the same options (with UMich thrown in the mix). I nixed NYU early on because they didn't give me money and the cost of living is rid. I'd also much rather be in a low-key town during law school and travel elsewhere for internships than deal with city life (and I've lived in the city most of my life). Did you apply for one of the public interest scholarships? That could make a difference. UVA is a great school (did undergrad there) and the COL is much lower than Cal or NYU. It also invests a good amount in international and human rights law. Cal has smaller classes, seems to invest more in its students and fosters a less competitive environment than UVA. If all other factors are equal for you (weather, class size, clinics, region, rank, etc.), then it might be best to wait to hear from Berk regarding your scholarship.

Thanks for the advice, I think that waiting for Berkeley makes sense. UMich just offered me $70,000, too, so maybe I should be adding them to the mix.

[FlightoftheEarls]

I'm considering the same options (with UMich thrown in the mix). I nixed NYU early on because they didn't give me money and the cost of living is rid. I'd also much rather be in a low-key town during law school and travel elsewhere for internships than deal with city life (and I've lived in the city most of my life). Did you apply for one of the public interest scholarships? That could make a difference. UVA is a great school (did undergrad there) and the COL is much lower than Cal or NYU. It also invests a good amount in international and human rights law. Cal has smaller classes, seems to invest more in its students and fosters a less competitive environment than UVA. If all other factors are equal for you (weather, class size, clinics, region, rank, etc.), then it might be best to wait to hear from Berk regarding your scholarship.

Thanks for the advice, I think that waiting for Berkeley makes sense. UMich just offered me $70,000, too, so maybe I should be adding them to the mix.

I'd recommend that you look into Michigan's Geneva externship placements (http://www.law.umich.edu/mlawglobal/int ... ships.aspx). We're now sending 15-30 people per year to various externship placements with international NGOs and international government agencies in Geneva, and still a number more to human rights organizations in South Africa. Also note that these aren't just places where a single student has externed in the past decade or so, but rather consistent placement arrangements set up with these organizations. The 25-30 available placements for this year (we seem to be adding more each year, and some organizations accept more than 1 student) include:

South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) (Cape Town, Durban, Johannesburg)
Legal Resources Centre (LRC) (Cape Town, Durban, Johannesburg)
Refugee Clinic, University of Cape Town (Cape Town)
Gender, Health and Justice Research Unit (GHJ) (Cape Town)
Center for International Environmental Law (CIEL) (Geneva)
The GAVI Alliance: Legal Team (Geneva)
The Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria: The Legal Unit (Geneva)
International Commission of Jurists (Geneva)
International Centre for Trade and Sustainable Development (ICTSD) (Geneva)
International Labour Organization: Office of the Legal Adviser (Geneva)
International Organization for Migration (IOM): Intll Migration Law Unit (Geneva)
International Organization for Migration (IOM): Office of Legal Affairs (Geneva)
International Service for Human Rights (ISHR) (Geneva)
International Telecommunication Union (ITU): Legal Affairs Unit (Geneva)
Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR): Rule of Law and Democracy Section (Geneva)
Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR): Women’s Human Rights and Gender Unit (Geneva)
The South Centre (Geneva)
UN Conference on Trade And Development (UNCTAD): Division on Investment and Enterprise (DIAE) (Geneva)
UN Conference on Trade And Development (UNCTAD): Division on International Trade and Commodities (DITC) (Geneva)
UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR): Human Rights Liaison Unit (Geneva)
UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR): Regional Bureau for Africa (Geneva)
The United States Diplomatic Mission to the UN in Geneva: Legal Office (Geneva)
World Health Organization (WHO): Office of the Legal Counsel (Geneva)
World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO): Office of Legal Counsel (Geneva)


I know NYU also has a similarly established student externship program (only a couple in Europe, but in a bunch of other cool locations as well --LinkRemoved--). Berkeley has also sent a few students on externships (http://www.law.berkeley.edu/2821.htm), but the placement seems relatively limited by comparison. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any links to UVA's program (only their generic externship site - http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/academ ... nships.htm), so perhaps somebody could comment on whether they have pre-established placements with international organizations.

Between these organizations, it looks like Michigan and NYU have far more extensive programs for consistently placing students in externships. While that doesn't necessarily translate into a career (and you shouldn't approach this thinking it will), the path into these organizations typically consists of a top school + a strong interest/background + a relationship with the organization (or a professor with such a relationship who can get you in contact). NYU will offer much more geographic diversity in programs than Michigan, but it might be somewhat more difficult to break into the geographical location you want (only 5 placement programs within Europe, which many consider to be the bread and butter for many international government agencies/NGOs). Michigan's placement, while not as geographically dispersed, is very strong there. If you're interested in almost any kind of international/human-rights policy, you can probably find an organization that matches your interests.