Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein Forum

[Fresh]

In 2010-11, students will be expected to meet the first $37,500, $38,500 or
$39,500 of their need with loans, depending on their class year. Students whose total need is less
than this amount will normally receive only loan assistance. Students whose need exceeds this
amount will often receive grants. Further need which exceeds the basic budget is usually
met in the form of additional loans.

The handbook is definitely the source I'll trust, but this page is misleading

Grants are awarded solely on the basis of financial need. The Law School does not give merit-based or criteria-based scholarships. The maximum possible grant is the amount of tuition.

[oxford_don]

FWIW, Harvard gave me $11k in grant money. Since the ASW it is been out of the running for me so I am not going to bother trying to get Harvard to match Yale.

Honestly, I don't know how, given my parents financial data, Harvard and Yale found need based aid for me. Harvard's website said that it wasn't worth applying for financial aid because my parents made over x dollars per year. Then again, I don't really care.

Also, I did get an extension from Chicago (until April 22nd).

[Borhas]

so you want to go into academia? how much do you think you can possibly make after graduation?

Yale's LRAP will cover your debt if you make less than 60 (or maybe 70k?) /year no matter what job you have (even if you're unemployed).... So if you are clerking, it's covered. Fellowship? Covered. Teaching? (if less than the cap...) covered.

That's not real debt.

[tgir]

even if you're unemployed

Pretty sure that bit isn't true.

But yeah, Yale debt is pretty far from being real debt.

[notanumber]

even if you're unemployed

Pretty sure that bit isn't true.

But yeah, Yale debt is pretty far from being real debt.

Yeah. Except for a 3 month grace period, you've gotta be employed at least half time (in which case your award will be imputed on a full-time basis) to be eligible for COAP benefits. But still, most any legal or non-legal job qualifies (self employment is case-by-case).

[rabbit9198]

so you want to go into academia? how much do you think you can possibly make after graduation?

Yale's LRAP will cover your debt if you make less than 60 (or maybe 70k?) /year no matter what job you have (even if you're unemployed).... So if you are clerking, it's covered. Fellowship? Covered. Teaching? (if less than the cap...) covered.

That's not real debt.

Just one factual correction: clerking is NOT covered if you then go on to be in a higher-paying job (basically: YLS will give you a COAP-eligible loan to pay your loans for that year; you have to pay it back if you go into a firm job, but it becomes part of your COAP-forgivable loan burden if you go into low-paying work).

[kalessebo]

(if less than the cap...) covered.

That's not real debt.

I'd just add that COAP covers you even if you're over the cap. You only pay 25% of your salary over 60k. So if youre making 100k, you only pay 10 (25% of the 40 over the cap). it's actually kind of ridiculous.

[oxford_don]

Yale and Chicago ASWs are in the books, and now it's time for me to make a decision. I think I know what to do, but am going to sleep on it for a night or two.

[thecilent]

Yale and Chicago ASWs are in the books, and now it's time for me to make a decision. I think I know what to do, but am going to sleep on it for a night or two.

If you don't choose yale, you are making the wrong decision. hth

[ExpectLess]

Yale and Chicago ASWs are in the books, and now it's time for me to make a decision. I think I know what to do, but am going to sleep on it for a night or two.

If you don't choose yale, you are making the wrong decision. hth

You say wrong decision as if it's a sophie's choice. He can't go wrong either way. Would most people pick Yale? Sure. Does he have compelling reasons not to? Sounds like it.

I don't think he can make a wrong choice here.

[CanadianWolf]

If you let others make the decision for you, then you are probably making the wrong choice.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

What'd you think of the Yale ASW?

[TaipeiMort]

I think most are off base here.

Lay prestige and other factors are meaningless if you are not happy.

The three years during law school are some of the best of your prime. IMO, which ever school would make you happier is the one you want to attend.

If living near your home, in the town you love, near friends and family, with no debt will make these years awesome, then choose Chicago.

I would think that you could do something better with your life or gain more utility in the long run from the Yale label, or want to go into politics or have a shot at the Supreme Court then choose Yale.

I think either could easily be a much better choice depending upon your life goals.

[Emma.]

I think most are off base here.

Lay prestige and other factors are meaningless if you are not happy.

The three years during law school are some of the best of your prime. IMO, which ever school would make you happier is the one you want to attend.

If living near your home, in the town you love, near friends and family, with no debt will make these years awesome, then choose Chicago.

I would think that you could do something better with your life or gain more utility in the long run from the Yale label, or want to go into politics or have a shot at the Supreme Court then choose Yale.

I think either could easily be a much better choice depending upon your life goals.

Well said.

also (from another thread):

People on TLS don't appreciate the kind of drastic difference in lifestyle that happens when a person has 150K less debt.

Of course with a JD from YLS you'll have amazing options and certainly be able to pay off your debt. But you will also certainly be limited in your options by having that debt hanging over you.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Of course with a JD from YLS you'll have amazing options and certainly be able to pay off your debt. But you will also certainly be limited in your options by having that debt hanging over you.

I disagree. COAP means you have all options on the table. OP will have less cash on hand for ~10 yrs post-JD if he opts for Biglaw out of YLS. But in terms of the choice between Biglaw, PI, gov't, academia, non-law jobs, COAP ensures that all those options are still there.

[09042014]

Can we stop pretending Yale is a lifelong ticket to riches? Sure it will guarantee you a big law SA. But it won't protect you from No Offers. It won't protect you from getting Lathamed. And it certainly won't make you get partner. So in 5 years post grad, the OP is out of big law like everyone else.

In 2010, 4 Yalies went to Cadwalader.

[Emma.]

Of course with a JD from YLS you'll have amazing options and certainly be able to pay off your debt. But you will also certainly be limited in your options by having that debt hanging over you.

I disagree. COAP means you have all options on the table. OP will have less cash on hand for ~10 yrs post-JD if he opts for Biglaw out of YLS. But in terms of the choice between Biglaw, PI, gov't, academia, non-law jobs, COAP ensures that all those options are still there.

I voted for Yale, but I think it is ridiculous to claim that COAP completely negates the significance of $200K of debt. 10 years is a long time to be limited to keeping your income below the COAP cap.

If OP decides he wants biglaw or another high paying job of course he'll be able to pay off the debt, but if he takes the Rubenstein he'd be putting all that extra money straight into his own bank account.

[USAIRS]

Can we stop pretending Yale is a lifelong ticket to riches? Sure it will guarantee you a big law SA. But it won't protect you from No Offers. It won't protect you from getting Lathamed. And it certainly won't make you get partner. So in 5 years post grad, the OP is out of big law like everyone else.

In 2010, 4 Yalies went to Cadwalader.

I don't read that many posts, but I have to say that the few I do read have Desert Fox dropping smart bombs.

People, from the horse's mouth here, that debt is going to be real one way or another.

Presuming OP gets a big firm job. Yes, he will then be able to pay it back. Key word there is PAY. And it will be about 1500 a month on full loans on a 25 year repayment plan. That's a lot of money, even if you are making 200k. That's a house that's 250 grand nicer, or full time day care, or having a BMW and a maid. You will know the difference.

Presuming OP goes into prosecution in a major city. OP will be making at least 80k starting, then 100k within a few years (I don't know how this works if OP marries someone with a big firm income). Even assuming that OP will only be required to pay 25% of the amount over 60k, he will be paying 10k per year. When your take home is less than 60k (which it is at about 100k income), you will very much notice the missing 10,000, and you will notice the cockroaches in your apartment.

Presuming OP goes into a "true" public interest job making 40-60k... good for you! The sacrifices you are making, I could never make and support my family and pay for my condo. I salute you, sir or madam. And I respect that your commitment is so great, that you even sacrificed mobility to prosecution jobs and sophisticated firm jobs to start your career in the public interest. I am serious. These people are the real deal and the principles one has to have to make this commitment are just admirable.

AND, if OP wants to end up in prosecution or at a federal defender's office after working at a firm for a couple of years to pay down debt, best of luck! We have plenty of people from top schools applying to the US Attorney's Office here, and no one is really that impressed by the fact that someone got into Yale, earned no grades, and works at a firm.

(Emma. beats me to this and does it in about 4 words)

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Of course with a JD from YLS you'll have amazing options and certainly be able to pay off your debt. But you will also certainly be limited in your options by having that debt hanging over you.

I disagree. COAP means you have all options on the table. OP will have less cash on hand for ~10 yrs post-JD if he opts for Biglaw out of YLS. But in terms of the choice between Biglaw, PI, gov't, academia, non-law jobs, COAP ensures that all those options are still there.

I voted for Yale, but I think it is ridiculous to claim that COAP completely negates the significance of $200K of debt. 10 years is a long time to be limited to keeping your income below the COAP cap.

If OP decides he wants biglaw or another high paying job of course he'll be able to pay off the debt, but if he takes the Rubenstein he'd be putting all that extra money straight into his own bank account.

COAP does negate the significance of debt if you take advantage of it--that's what it's there for. If you choose to take a job that pays above the cap, then it doesn't kick in. But it's hard to see how that constrains your options--if you want a low-paying PI job, fine, COAP takes care of you. If you take a job that pays above the cap, fine, you have enough money to pay off your loans without COAP.

Re: your second point. I acknowledge that if OP gets Biglaw out of Chicago he will have more cash on hand than if he got Biglaw out of Yale--that is obvious. What I was responding to was the notion that he would have more career options out of Chicago, which is clearly false--COAP ensures that OP would have the same options out of YLS as he would out of Chicago.

[icouldbuyu]

I'd pick Harvard just for the lay prestige. And by lay prestige, i mean the ability to get laid.

[Emma.]

COAP does negate the significance of debt if you take advantage of it--that's what it's there for. If you choose to take a job that pays above the cap, then it doesn't kick in. But it's hard to see how that constrains your options--if you want a low-paying PI job, fine, COAP takes care of you. If you take a job that pays above the cap, fine, you have enough money to pay off your loans without COAP.

Re: your second point. I acknowledge that if OP gets Biglaw out of Chicago he will have more cash on hand than if he got Biglaw out of Yale--that is obvious. What I was responding to was the notion that he would have more career options out of Chicago, which is clearly false--COAP ensures that OP would have the same options out of YLS as he would out of Chicago.

I think the point is that there are plenty of intermediate options between keeping your income under the COAP cap and having your loans forgiven and getting a baller biglaw job that you stay in long enough to easily pay off your loans and put stacks of cash in the bank. Graduating debt-free opens up some of those intermediate options in a way that Yale's COAP doesn't do (as pointed out well in USAIRs post).

[09042014]

COAP does negate the significance of debt if you take advantage of it--that's what it's there for. If you choose to take a job that pays above the cap, then it doesn't kick in. But it's hard to see how that constrains your options--if you want a low-paying PI job, fine, COAP takes care of you. If you take a job that pays above the cap, fine, you have enough money to pay off your loans without COAP.

Re: your second point. I acknowledge that if OP gets Biglaw out of Chicago he will have more cash on hand than if he got Biglaw out of Yale--that is obvious. What I was responding to was the notion that he would have more career options out of Chicago, which is clearly false--COAP ensures that OP would have the same options out of YLS as he would out of Chicago.

The OP doesn't even want low paying PI. So LRAP isn't a huge deal. For his case it absolutely doesn't negate the debt.

And handwaving 150K at 8% interest with "he will have more cash on hand" is really understating the significance. It's a totally different lifestyle.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

COAP does negate the significance of debt if you take advantage of it--that's what it's there for. If you choose to take a job that pays above the cap, then it doesn't kick in. But it's hard to see how that constrains your options--if you want a low-paying PI job, fine, COAP takes care of you. If you take a job that pays above the cap, fine, you have enough money to pay off your loans without COAP.

Re: your second point. I acknowledge that if OP gets Biglaw out of Chicago he will have more cash on hand than if he got Biglaw out of Yale--that is obvious. What I was responding to was the notion that he would have more career options out of Chicago, which is clearly false--COAP ensures that OP would have the same options out of YLS as he would out of Chicago.

I think the point is that there are plenty of intermediate options between keeping your income under the COAP cap and having your loans forgiven and getting a baller biglaw job that you stay in long enough to easily pay off your loans and put stacks of cash in the bank. Graduating debt-free opens up some of those intermediate options in a way that Yale's COAP doesn't do (as pointed out well in USAIRs post).

COAP covers the intermediate options. If you make over 60k, you only contribute 25% of your income above 60k to loan payments.

USAIR's post goes to the extra money OP would have out of Chicago, which I acknowledge, not OP's career options.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

COAP does negate the significance of debt if you take advantage of it--that's what it's there for. If you choose to take a job that pays above the cap, then it doesn't kick in. But it's hard to see how that constrains your options--if you want a low-paying PI job, fine, COAP takes care of you. If you take a job that pays above the cap, fine, you have enough money to pay off your loans without COAP.

Re: your second point. I acknowledge that if OP gets Biglaw out of Chicago he will have more cash on hand than if he got Biglaw out of Yale--that is obvious. What I was responding to was the notion that he would have more career options out of Chicago, which is clearly false--COAP ensures that OP would have the same options out of YLS as he would out of Chicago.

The OP doesn't even want low paying PI. So LRAP isn't a huge deal. For his case it absolutely doesn't negate the debt.

And handwaving 150K at 8% interest with "he will have more cash on hand" is really understating the significance. It's a totally different lifestyle.

Agreed. I was responding to the notion that OP would have less career options out of Yale. I said nothing about his lifestyle.

[Emma.]

COAP does negate the significance of debt if you take advantage of it--that's what it's there for. If you choose to take a job that pays above the cap, then it doesn't kick in. But it's hard to see how that constrains your options--if you want a low-paying PI job, fine, COAP takes care of you. If you take a job that pays above the cap, fine, you have enough money to pay off your loans without COAP.

Re: your second point. I acknowledge that if OP gets Biglaw out of Chicago he will have more cash on hand than if he got Biglaw out of Yale--that is obvious. What I was responding to was the notion that he would have more career options out of Chicago, which is clearly false--COAP ensures that OP would have the same options out of YLS as he would out of Chicago.

The OP doesn't even want low paying PI. So LRAP isn't a huge deal. For his case it absolutely doesn't negate the debt.

And handwaving 150K at 8% interest with "he will have more cash on hand" is really understating the significance. It's a totally different lifestyle.

Agreed. I was responding to the notion that OP would have less career options out of Yale. I said nothing about his lifestyle.

Career options can include the option to choose a $120K job at a midlaw firm OP prefers, or a job in academia or something, rather than being locked into biglaw to pay down $200K.