Rutgers-Newark v. Seton Hall Forum

[indecision123]

Straight to the point:

Rutgers-Newark: I got $8k scholarship and in-state tuition. Meaning it'll cost roughly $13k
Seton Hall: 35k scholarship. Will cost roughly $10k

I plan on commuting so the area doesn't matter to me. Either way, school experience IMO is negligible, the most important thing coming out is employment prospects.

I'm thinking IP or Intl. law. I want to work in NY. I realize only about 30% of students from either school do that, but hey, these are the options I'm working with.

Like I said, my most important concern coming to this forum is to hear feedback on employment prospects. If you're just going to bash, please don't waste my time or the time of those who are going to read this post.

Thanks!

[bk1]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

[Wholigan]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

+1

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

This chart is from 2008, but I think it will still give you an idea of what's going on. You might want to reexamine that 30% figure, unless you count working in a 3-man personal injury firm in Queens or Legal Services in the Bronx "working in NY."

[surfparks6]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

+1

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

This chart is from 2008, but I think it will still give you an idea of what's going on. You might want to reexamine that 30% figure, unless you count working in a 3-man personal injury firm in Queens or Legal Services in the Bronx "working in NY."

Actually, that graph made me feel better about deciding to go to Rutgers-Newark. I haven't sent in the seat deposit yet, but looking at all the schools that "statistically" have a higher percentage of big law placements, there are really only 30 schools. (Of course, some of those schools place about 50%). Out of almost 200 ABA accredited law schools, it shows that Rutgers-Newark may not be the best law school out there, but it’s at least situated in a location and has a reputation that holds its own. With my numbers, this is by far the best choice. For others, who can get into one of the other 30 schools I mentioned above, go for it! Not everyone’s reach school is the same. This school was a reach for me and I'll make the best of what I get. However, I don't think Rutgers lemons are that sour that it can't make sweet lemonade, but I make that happen and don't expect it on a silver platter handed to me like some do.

[Justathought]

I think Rutgers Newark is one of the best choices for the NYC inclined who cannot break into the t14/Fordham.

[surfparks6]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

How did you join this last year and have the time to have 7,500+ posts? Do you have a job? I know you posted on one of my threads and I appreciate it, but 7,500 posts? That’s ridiculous and creates a pretty biased opinion. Judging that you haven't been to law school yet and you reside in CA like I do, I would hardly look at your posts as having that much meaning. For anyone that reads your post, I hope they see you as overly opinionated with possibly too much time on your hands.

[ndirish2010]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

How did you join this last year and have the time to have 7,500+ posts? Do you have a job? I know you posted on one of my threads and I appreciate it, but 7,500 posts? That’s ridiculous and creates a pretty biased opinion. Judging that you haven't been to law school yet and you reside in CA like I do, I would hardly look at your posts as having that much meaning. For anyone that reads your post, I hope they see you as overly opinionated with possibly too much time on your hands.

Even if all that was true, he is still right. I would venture to guess that most (all) of the T30 + Cardozo and maybe BLS would beat out Rutgers-Newark in NYC. They don't all have as many in NYC as Rutgers but a lot of that is self-selection. For example, if someone were to say that for equal cost I could go to WUSTL or Rutgers to work in NY, wouldn't TCR be WUSTL, though neither is an amazing choice?

[Justathought]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

How did you join this last year and have the time to have 7,500+ posts? Do you have a job? I know you posted on one of my threads and I appreciate it, but 7,500 posts? That’s ridiculous and creates a pretty biased opinion. Judging that you haven't been to law school yet and you reside in CA like I do, I would hardly look at your posts as having that much meaning. For anyone that reads your post, I hope they see you as overly opinionated with possibly too much time on your hands.

Even if all that was true, he is still right. I would venture to guess that most (all) of the T30 + Cardozo and maybe BLS would beat out Rutgers-Newark in NYC. They don't all have as many in NYC as Rutgers but a lot of that is self-selection. For example, if someone were to say that for equal cost I could go to WUSTL or Rutgers to work in NY, wouldn't TCR be WUSTL, though neither is an amazing choice?

I simply don't think the bold portion is true. For NYC (and surrounding region, meaning places you could commute to from NYC) you should be better served by Rutgers. UGA, IU-B, UNC, and Iowa certainly do not offer such markedly better prestige that it would outweigh the substantial alumni base and ties to the region that Rutgers has. BLS and Cardozo would provide you with better prospects in NY, though similar, but if you expand you job search to explore northern NJ, a region which has NLJ 250 firms, and is still close to the city, I think the line becomes blurred. Finally, Rutgers has amazing connections to the judicial branch of the state government in NJ, something which shouldn't be overlooked.

If cost isn't equal, I would consider Rutgers the 4th best option for NYC area schools - That of course does not mean its the 4th best option for NYC. If price is equal, it is probably the 5th best option in the region(not "for" the region), in a tie with BLS.

To the point on self-selection; it does play a role here. Rutgers, BLS, and St. John's grads should count themselves lucky that not every WUSTL grad wants to practice in NY; it is more of national school. Luckily for students who attend these NY area schools, not all of the T20 grads want NYC, and not any below median guy from WUSTL can take a job from a strong candidate at one of these schools.

Edit: To your question on TCR - equal cost WUSTL vs Rutgers for only NYC? Its tough, I would lean WUSTL, but if your only goal is NYC, and we all know you can't assume certain grades for law school above median, WUSTL is the clear choice for a national job search, but I don't know that its the clear choice for NYC. Median at either I think you are screwed for NYC region NLJ 250.

[HeavenWood]

I think Rutgers Newark is one of the best choices for the NYC inclined who cannot break into the t14/Fordham.

...if one is attending for free (or next to it) and is comfortable with the idea of either 1) not landing a legal job or 2) working in North Jersey.

[Justathought]

I think Rutgers Newark is one of the best choices for the NYC inclined who cannot break into the t14/Fordham.

...if one is attending for free (or next to it) and is comfortable with the idea of either 1) not landing a legal job or 2) working in North Jersey.

Fair enough, but that goes for the rest of the +T30 minus Fordham and a few others. Believe me, I wish I could go to UPenn like you. I live in NY and this is where I want to practice. I don't see many of the T1 options in random areas of the country being much better than Rutgers for the region I want to work.

Remember, this topic was created by someone that seems to want to practice in this region exclusively. I wish I could be comfortable in any area in the country, but family and friends limit my comfort zone to NY and LA. I mostly applied to schools in those regions. I applied to some other T1s and T2s in various areas, but it seems like a mistake for my goals of practicing in NY (or to a lesser extent LA.)

[Wholigan]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

How did you join this last year and have the time to have 7,500+ posts? Do you have a job? I know you posted on one of my threads and I appreciate it, but 7,500 posts? That’s ridiculous and creates a pretty biased opinion. Judging that you haven't been to law school yet and you reside in CA like I do, I would hardly look at your posts as having that much meaning. For anyone that reads your post, I hope they see you as overly opinionated with possibly too much time on your hands.

Even if all that was true, he is still right. I would venture to guess that most (all) of the T30 + Cardozo and maybe BLS would beat out Rutgers-Newark in NYC. They don't all have as many in NYC as Rutgers but a lot of that is self-selection. For example, if someone were to say that for equal cost I could go to WUSTL or Rutgers to work in NY, wouldn't TCR be WUSTL, though neither is an amazing choice?

I simply don't think the bold portion is true. For NYC (and surrounding region, meaning places you could commute to from NYC) you should be better served by Rutgers. UGA, IU-B, UNC, and Iowa certainly do not offer such markedly better prestige that it would outweigh the substantial alumni base and ties to the region that Rutgers has. BLS and Cardozo would provide you with better prospects in NY, though similar, but if you expand you job search to explore northern NJ, a region which has NLJ 250 firms, and is still close to the city, I think the line becomes blurred. Finally, Rutgers has amazing connections to the judicial branch of the state government in NJ, something which shouldn't be overlooked.

If cost isn't equal, I would consider Rutgers the 4th best option for NYC area schools - That of course does not mean its the 4th best option for NYC. If price is equal, it is probably the 5th best option in the region(not "for" the region), in a tie with BLS.

To the point on self-selection; it does play a role here. Rutgers, BLS, and St. John's grads should count themselves lucky that not every WUSTL grad wants to practice in NY; it is more of national school. Luckily for students who attend these NY area schools, not all of the T20 grads want NYC, and not any below median guy from WUSTL can take a job from a strong candidate at one of these schools.


Edit: To your question on TCR - equal cost WUSTL vs Rutgers for only NYC? Its tough, I would lean WUSTL, but if your only goal is NYC, and we all know you can't assume certain grades for law school above median, WUSTL is the clear choice for a national job search, but I don't know that its the clear choice for NYC. Median at either I think you are screwed for NYC region NLJ 250.

OP said he wanted to work in NYC, period. He didn't mention NLJ 250 firms in NJ, or the NJ state government, or cost. Those are all a different story. My guess is you would have to be top 3% at Rutgers Newark to have a shot at NY biglaw, so if that is truly your goal, retake and reapply might be the way to go. I also think Seton Hall places slightly better in NY, but unless you have $$$ is probably not worth it for the marginal advantage.

[HeavenWood]

I think Rutgers Newark is one of the best choices for the NYC inclined who cannot break into the t14/Fordham.

...if one is attending for free (or next to it) and is comfortable with the idea of either 1) not landing a legal job or 2) working in North Jersey.

Fair enough, but that goes for the rest of the +T30 minus Fordham and a few others. Believe me, I wish I could go to UPenn like you. I live in NY and this is where I want to practice. I don't see many of the T1 options in random areas of the country being much better than Rutgers for the region I want to work.

You also have to think about maximizing your employment prospects in general. If you go to a school like BU/BC/GW, you may have less direct access to NYC, but you still have a shot, given their regional proximity. You also have a better chance for landing a legal job period (that being said, I would not recommend going there at sticker, either).

[Justathought]

I think Rutgers Newark is one of the best choices for the NYC inclined who cannot break into the t14/Fordham.

...if one is attending for free (or next to it) and is comfortable with the idea of either 1) not landing a legal job or 2) working in North Jersey.

Fair enough, but that goes for the rest of the +T30 minus Fordham and a few others. Believe me, I wish I could go to UPenn like you. I live in NY and this is where I want to practice. I don't see many of the T1 options in random areas of the country being much better than Rutgers for the region I want to work.

You also have to think about maximizing your employment prospects in general. If you go to a school like BU/BC/GW, you may have less direct access to NYC, but you still have a shot, given their regional proximity. You also have a better chance for landing a legal job period (that being said, I would not recommend going there at sticker, either).

I do agree with you there. No question about it.

[Nicholasnickynic]

Hey, have you ever seen that south park episode where the elementary school has to pick a new mascot and the choices are a giant douche and a turd sandwich?

[Justathought]

Hey, have you ever seen that south park episode where the elementary school has to pick a new mascot and the choices are a giant douche and a turd sandwich?

Turd Sandwich is the clear winner due to lay prestige.

[indecision123]

Thanks for all the replies…

I'm still really iffy about both the options. I hear a lot of bashing here but I agree with Justathought in that staying in the region is probably better than leaving it. Especially since I have family ties preventing me from leaving. There are options in NY also of course- Fordham, Cardozo, Brooklyn. But I know people graduating from there also and they're having just as hard a time finding a job. Unless you're going to NYU or Columbia in NY its gonna suck coming out of it. And I'm just not willing to pay sticker for that kind of risk. Let's face it, not everyone is meant for T14. So let me make that clear for anyone posting after this. These are the two options: Rutgers and SHL. And btw, SHL ends up cheaper with the scholarship.

Part of me is leaning toward Rutgers mainly because its a bigger name and seems to have slightly better job prospects in NYC. But SHL has clinics I'm interested in whereas RU is lacking here. Soooooo who knows. Will be visiting both next month.

Anyone on the forum actually graduating from either of these soon or have graduated from here? Would really like some incite from those.

Oh and btw, OP is a SHE

[Wholigan]

My apologies, *ma'am*. I believe I was the offender. I'm a student at the other Rutgers, so I am in no position to bash Rutgers or SHU. I was just trying to be realistic. I am targeting biglaw myself. One side note - you mentioned IP in your original question. Do you have a science or engineering UG degree? I didn't know this before law school, but I do not think you can get into IP from either school otherwise, even if you are #1 in your class.

Now when you mention the clinics, do you mean just for personal enjoyment? Because if you do get a big law firm, you will get your offer at the start of 2L, before you ever have a chance to do anything in a clinic. If you think you will enjoy working in one of them, that's something to look at, since the two schools are very close. I talked to an associate at a big firm at a networking event yesterday who loved doing domestic violence clinic, even though it has nothing to do with her current job. Also, look at how easy it is to keep your scholarship money. A lot of people lose their $$ after the first year if the requirements are tough to meet.

[NJcollegestudent]

I would go with Rutgers-Newark.

[MrAnon]

Sorry if you don't want to hear bashing, but these are simply not great options. Maybe 2 students from each class of these schools go on to practice serious IP law. People really are speaking the truth when they say the prospects out of these schools are grim. The newspaper articles don't lie either.

Except for the admissions brochures, there aren't a lot of positive stories anyplace about the prospects of grads from these schools.

[bk1]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

How did you join this last year and have the time to have 7,500+ posts? Do you have a job? I know you posted on one of my threads and I appreciate it, but 7,500 posts? That’s ridiculous and creates a pretty biased opinion. Judging that you haven't been to law school yet and you reside in CA like I do, I would hardly look at your posts as having that much meaning. For anyone that reads your post, I hope they see you as overly opinionated with possibly too much time on your hands.

I choose to spend my time posting on TLS, does this somehow invalidate what I say? I base most of what I say off of what I read from articles, graphs, and from TLS posters who are both current students and the small few who are recent grads, as well as the handful of lawyers that I know and have spoken with. If any of them disputes what I say then I take that to heart and listen. In this case, if any current students truly feel that my advice is somehow unreasonable then I'd be glad to hear their take on it. FWIW, I do have a full time job.

The thing is, in good years these schools only sent about 2/3 of their class to NYC. I would hazard a guess that it is harder to get NYC out of these schools ITE and thus I don't think that going to these schools with the intention of practicing in NYC is a great idea when there is the option to take a NYC school on a big scholly. Don't get me wrong, I tend to think that Rutgers is a better financial decision than even a full scholly to a place like Brooklyn or sticker at Fordham, but only with the caveat that one is okay with working in New Jersey.

This doesn't even consider the fact that the OP is likely being quite unrealistic with IP and international law which is even further worsened by a school such as Rutgers or Seton Hall.

[arvcondor]

Gov. Christie went to Seton Hall, for what it's worth (which is likely nothing).

[Wholigan]

Sorry if you don't want to hear bashing, but these are simply not great options. Maybe 2 students from each class of these schools go on to practice serious IP law. People really are speaking the truth when they say the prospects out of these schools are grim. The newspaper articles don't lie either.

Except for the admissions brochures, there aren't a lot of positive stories anyplace about the prospects of grads from these schools.

It seems like she is intent on going to one or the other, so why not offer some realistic yet helpful advice. It seems like all you do here is tell people to drop out, tell people not to go to law school unless they're going to a T10, make assertions in absolute terms about people not being able to get jobs, and bash law schools all over the country that you can't possibly have direct knowledge about. I'm sure she understands by now that being in the top 30% isn't going to get her a six figure job from either school. But FWIW, the state and local governments in NJ are stocked with people from both of these schools, most of whom didn't graduate top 5%. Sure, you're not earning any more out of law school than most people with a UG degree could earn. But the benefits are good, and in 10 years you'll have your loans forgiven and be earning six figures or close to it. I don't think that's the worst prospect in the world if someone sees being a lawyer as a personal calling.

Edit for grammar.

[Blindmelon]

Gov. Christie went to Seton Hall, for what it's worth (which is likely nothing).

That counts against SH in a big way.

[thecilent]

Op: I'm from Jersey and have friends at all three of rutgers and seton hall. A couple of things I will say: 1) it doesn't really matter if you choose rutg-new or seton hall. Although sometimes around nj, seton hall law seems to be a little more highly regarded. 2) make sure you really enjoy practicing law. Talk to lawyers before you decide to go to ls. And 3) understand going in that you will prob work in nj after graduating. Sure you have a chance to get NYC, but don't make the assumption that you will. Only go to one of these schools if you would be happy to practice in jers

[Nogameisfair]

If you really want to work in NYC then I would suggest retaking/reapplying.

How did you join this last year and have the time to have 7,500+ posts? Do you have a job? I know you posted on one of my threads and I appreciate it, but 7,500 posts? That’s ridiculous and creates a pretty biased opinion. Judging that you haven't been to law school yet and you reside in CA like I do, I would hardly look at your posts as having that much meaning. For anyone that reads your post, I hope they see you as overly opinionated with possibly too much time on your hands.

I choose to spend my time posting on TLS, does this somehow invalidate what I say? I base most of what I say off of what I read from articles, graphs, and from TLS posters who are both current students and the small few who are recent grads, as well as the handful of lawyers that I know and have spoken with. If any of them disputes what I say then I take that to heart and listen. In this case, if any current students truly feel that my advice is somehow unreasonable then I'd be glad to hear their take on it. FWIW, I do have a full time job.

The thing is, in good years these schools only sent about 2/3 of their class to NYC. I would hazard a guess that it is harder to get NYC out of these schools ITE and thus I don't think that going to these schools with the intention of practicing in NYC is a great idea when there is the option to take a NYC school on a big scholly. Don't get me wrong, I tend to think that Rutgers is a better financial decision than even a full scholly to a place like Brooklyn or sticker at Fordham, but only with the caveat that one is okay with working in New Jersey.

This doesn't even consider the fact that the OP is likely being quite unrealistic with IP and international law which is even further worsened by a school such as Rutgers or Seton Hall.

I have significant connections to RU-N Law and SH Law, and the NJ legal community generally. The truth is RU-N is far more respected in NYC and NJ and will likely land you a job. My caveat, and this is where I agree with BK, is that you shouldn't go to RU-N unless you are willing to practice in NJ. There are several really great firms in NJ, and they all hire from RU-N as far as I know. If you have an open mind about practice in NJ and are debt averse, I think Rutgers is a better option than most, including Fordham.