Serve in heaven or rule in hell? Forum

[decrumpit]

Hello fellow posters - I come asking a question about the nature of "big fishing" in law school - that is to apply to a school not so good in the rankings and then finishing near the top of my class.

If I were to get into a law school such as Cleveland State, John Marshall, or SUNY Buffalo (or any other), what would my job prospects be like if I were to finish in the top 10% of the class? Would it be possible to attend these schools, stand out as a great student, and graduate at the top of my class while still finding a decent job?

Alternatively, I could graduate somewhere in the middle of a more reputable school and risk getting lost in the crowd. What would you recommend? I can't take the LSAT and do well if my life depended on it (I realize that it does), but I can put together a hell of an application and I have a *very* high GPA. Retaking is out of the question as I have consistently scored in the mid 150s on my practice tests.

What would you do if you were an inverse splitter? GPA - 3.95 (official) LSAT - 155

I've had my fair share of flaming such as "RETAKE THE GODDAM TEST YOU DUMB FUCK" and "KILL YOURSELF" so we can dispense with that rhetoric. Thanks a heap!

[Aqualibrium]

Retake is the only responsible answer to give you. Those at the very top of a TTT may have some good options, but there are also tons of stories about top third and fourth tier students who are having it rough. On top of that, it is so difficult to control where in the law school class you will rank. You can however control your lsat score. Unless you can go to a lower ranked school with a full scholarship, I just don't think it's wise to approach it in the way you are suggesting.

[NU_Jet55]

Absolutely, positively, do not go to ANY law school you wouldn't be happy graduating from.

HTH

[Kobe_Teeth]

But seriously, with your gpa, its absurd that you won't re-take the test (you dumb fuck).

Kill yourself.

[romothesavior]

Hello fellow posters - I come asking a question about the nature of "big fishing" in law school - that is to apply to a school not so good in the rankings and then finishing near the top of my class.

If I were to get into a law school such as Cleveland State, John Marshall, or SUNY Buffalo (or any other), what would my job prospects be like if I were to finish in the top 10% of the class? Would it be possible to attend these schools, stand out as a great student, and graduate at the top of my class while still finding a decent job?

Alternatively, I could graduate somewhere in the middle of a more reputable school and risk getting lost in the crowd. What would you recommend? I can't take the LSAT and do well if my life depended on it (I realize that it does), but I can put together a hell of an application and I have a *very* high GPA. Retaking is out of the question as I have consistently scored in the mid 150s on my practice tests.

What would you do if you were an inverse splitter? GPA - 3.95 (official) LSAT - 155

I've had my fair share of flaming such as "RETAKE THE GODDAM TEST YOU DUMB FUCK" and "KILL YOURSELF" so we can dispense with that rhetoric. Thanks a heap!

I mean this with all due respect, but you are not getting into any reputable law school with a 155 LSAT. You have a great GPA and you shouldn't waste it. I highly recommend re-taking the LSAT.

To answer your question, your job prospects from any of the schools you listed would be really bad even at top 10%. There are Tier 1 students in the top 10% who are nervous about getting a decent job in this economy. The overwhelming majority of students at a school like John Marshall are unlikely to ever have meaningful legal employment. I actually know someone at JMLS and they have told me just how bad things are. And finally, like NU said, don't go to a school you wouldn't be okay graduating from. You cannot plan on being at the top of your class, no matter where you go to school.

Again, I mean you no disrespect.. but you need to seriously do your homework on law school and the economy before you take the plunge into law school. You are setting yourself up for a potentially devastating life decision here, so please take a look around the TLS employment forum, Above the Law, xoxo, and JDU to get a picture of what things are like right now. The legal market is bleak.

[bk1]

To be more blunt than Romo, "retake the test" isn't flaming, it is legitimately the best advice anybody can give you.

The LSAT is very learnable and putting time into studying now is going to pay off 10 fold or more later. Have you actually exhausted all different study methods? If you haven't then I suggest you try something that is recommend (i.e. self-prep with PowerScore, a class with a reputable instructor, etc).

[Kobe_Teeth]

Seriously though, for a fool like me who did nothing but fuck around and be worthless in college...I would kill or at least a pummel a nun or a priest for your gpa.

With all sincerity, for your own future and more importantly, piece of mind, keep working at that test. Join a google study group, talk to people on tls, track your progress, EXHAUST your possibilities.

[FlanAl]

You should go on lsp and look at your chances at some quality regional schools in secondary markets. I mean take what it ways with a grain of salt but it has you as a consider at USD. If you will absolutely not do the lsat again at least look into strong T2's before decide to take the TTT plunge. (note I'm not sure what this is like for other secondary markets but in sd USD is very solid, much more so than the TTT's in the city)

[smittytron3k]

do LSP and plug in the following LSAT scores: 155; 160; 165; 170. see what happens.

if this doesn't make you want to retake the LSAT i'm not exactly sure what to say. take a class if you're struggling to study. i had the exact same gpa as you, took a class, and saw my LSAT score rise 15 points from where i was (and keep in mind i bombed so badly the first time i took the lsat that i walked out in the middle of section 3.) if you can get a 165 you'll make inroads into the T14. a 170 will get you in everywhere shy of HYSCCN. a 175 will give you a fighting chance at HYS. if you don't believe me just crunch the numbers on LSP.

[legalease9]

Retake. Consider the fact that its difficult to predict where you will place in any law school class. And Even if you choose to "rule in hell" as you put it, you will get a lot more money with a higher LSAT. Retake!

[Deuce]

With those numbers you could maybe get in to Cooley and rulez there. Hell, graduating top 5% from the 12th ranked law school in the nation? You're fucking golden.

[sophia.olive]

That LSAT is pretty low even for hell. I dont know why you think you will be ruling.

[dominkay]

Why can't you improve your LSAT score? How hard have you tried? How many times have you taken it? Why are you so certain that you'll be at the top of your class at any law school, especially given what I'm guessing are your testing issues?

[kalvano]

Even putting aside the retake option, just because you go to a lower-tier school doesn't automatically mean that you are smarter than everyone else or can be in the top 10%.

[HeavenWood]

I feel your pain. I have a 3.94 GPA, and for the longest time, couldn't break 156 on practice tests. No matter how much I studied, and no matter how hard I tried, that awful score just seemed to be the limit for me.

Then, something suddenly clicked. Now, I'm consistently scoring 163. Is it a great score? Definitely not. But even if I do no better on test day, I'll still have a good shot at many T1 schools.

The point is, keep trying. I busted my hump all summer, and the results didn't pay off until a few weeks ago. If you can get a 3.95, you can definitely break 160 on the LSAT. Think about the better opportunities you'd get from even a five point increase.

According to LSP, you currently have a decent shot at the T2s, as well as a fleeting chance at the lower T1s.

Get a 160, and you have a shot at Wash U down.

Get a 165, and you even have a chance at schools like UPenn and Michigan.

Will your life be over if you go to a T2? Of course not. Will it be much harder to find work upon graduation? Most definitely.

Weigh your options carefully, and good luck!

[Lonagan]

Have you used the Powerscore Bibles?

[romothesavior]

Even putting aside the retake option, just because you go to a lower-tier school doesn't automatically mean that you are smarter than everyone else or can be in the top 10%.

This is definitely TCR.

One thing I never understand is why high-GPA/low-LSAT people who refuse to retake think they are going to succeed in law school thanks to good ol' fashion hard work. They refuse to put in the work for a retake, but then they think they are going to magically turn into the hardest working person in law school. Why not just put in that hard work on the LSAT? If you think you are capable of putting in 4-5 hour nights in law school in order to beat the competition, why can't you put in 2-3 hours a night and study... and I mean truly study for the LSAT? It's not that hard.

Also, OP, just because you got a great undergrad GPA in no way means you are going to have a great law school GPA. Undergrad GPA is usually more of a function of hard work than it is intelligence. If you work hard at most undergrad schools in most programs, you'll get A's and B's. But law school is different because it is on a curve. Nearly everyone will be working their asses off, so if you think you can just go in and outwork everyone, you're wrong. And if you think you can go in and outsmart everyone, you're probably wrong to assume that too, because there are going to be lots of other special flowers at TTTs who are just like you and "can't do well on standardized exams."

Don't waste that GPA. Study hard for the LSAT and retake. If you can't put in a few hours a night for 2-3 months for the LSAT, there is no way you will have the work ethic to do well in law school. Use HeavenWood's example as motivation... hard work pays off, and you will be really wasting a great opportunity if you don't retake.

[Grizz]

Retake or don't go.

[kalvano]

If you can't put in a few hours a night for 2-3 months for the LSAT, there is no way you will have the work ethic to do well in law school.

185.

[reverendt]

It's easier to pull up your LSAT score than it is to land in the top 10% of ANY school.
Retake. If you can make it to the mid-160's you'll be in pretty good shape.

[CurbYourEnthusiasm]

To the OP, I don't think you realize how lucky you are. Almost a 4.0? I would honestly do unimaginable things if I could go back in time and be able to get that. Unfortunately, I slacked off in college and didn't realize I wanted to go to law school until my senior year and by then it was too late for me to do anything substantial to fix my GPA.

Now, in regards to the test, you need to retake. Now, everyone here is going to tell you to retake, but I am actually going to give you good personal advice. I myself, by definition, am an awful standardized test taker. I could barely crack 1150 on the SATs (between math/verbal). I took a diagnostic LSAT score in June and got a 144. I probably sat down all day and said 'wow, this is going to be my life. My crap GPA (3.2) and an awful LSAT score. Can I even get into a good law school?' Then the next day, I found this website and I have to say it changed my life, as cliche as that sounds. I immediately bought the two important bibles, and read through them religiously. My practice tests from a 144 in June are now ranging from 165-169. Granted this isn't the real thing, I could theoretically still walk into the October test and crap myself. BUT, I know I CAN do well on this test, which IMO is the most important thing.

Do yourself a favor, sit down, read the bibles, and work 3-4 hours a day to increase your score. If you aren't naturally smart and you got a 3.95, then you have to be a book worm (much like I am). And if you are a bookworm, then sit down and study like none other for this test. Trust me, its very doable. Even if you increase your score 5-10 more points, you can get into an excellent T2 regional school, most likely with a scholarship because of your GPA. Good luck man.