MVP w/45k vs CCN sticker Forum

[rayiner]

I am shocked at placement differentials. Can it really be that 2/3 of CCN kids make it through the OCI while median isn't safe at MPBV? General sentiment/data seems to suggest such a conclusion but I cannot quite believe it just yet.

If it is true, however, it very much justifies spending extra money for CCN.

Depends entirely on if hiring stays at the same level. If it goes up, we'll probably be back to the days where CCN had 90-100% getting 2L SAs if they wanted them and MVPB being more like 70-80%.

$45k is not enough money for me to risk that hiring will go back up.

I'd agree. Also depends on career goals though.

Every now and then I realize there are humans who actually don't want a big firm job in NYC and wheelbarrows full of money, and it always throws me for a loop.

In any case, $45k isn't going to make or break your plans of doing a non-NYC biglaw job.

[como]

The numbers I came up with after using going through a financial decision-tree analysis are pretty similar, although MPV at $45K/yr. at the current hiring rates has a very slight edge in terms of NPV. There are so many ways to alter the numbers (considering the fact that I have little data other than loan costs/big law offer rates/tuition costs/big law salaries), so it's probably a wash. I would ED CC, but I don't think I would ED N.

[lawschoollll]

The numbers I came up with after using going through a financial decision-tree analysis are pretty similar, although MPV at $45K/yr. at the current hiring rates has a very slight edge in terms of NPV. There are so many ways to alter the numbers (considering the fact that I have little data other than loan costs/big law offer rates/tuition costs/big law salaries), so it's probably a wash. I would ED CC, but I don't think I would ED N.

Is there that great a disparity between CC and N?

[SuichiKurama]

The numbers I came up with after using going through a financial decision-tree analysis are pretty similar, although MPV at $45K/yr. at the current hiring rates has a very slight edge in terms of NPV. There are so many ways to alter the numbers (considering the fact that I have little data other than loan costs/big law offer rates/tuition costs/big law salaries), so it's probably a wash. I would ED CC, but I don't think I would ED N.

Is there that great a disparity between CC and N?

Not for NYC, but for everywhere else---yes.

[clintonius]

I think for academia, CCN is a better bet.

I can't find the Leiter page (holy shit is that a terrible web site, btw), but I think the numbers disagree with you at least as far as NYU goes.

[bleu]

--ImageRemoved--

[markymark]

Depends on which MVP and which CCN and which city you ultimately want to work in.


For example: I would not take 45k at Virginia or Penn over sticker at Chicago if I wanted Minneapolis or Milwaukee biglaw.

I would take 45k at Penn over sticker at Chicago if I wanted NYC.

[bree]

One other consideration is where people from MVP go to work and where people from CCN go to work. I think one reason why MVP were hit harder than CCN is the market that those schools feed into.

-Columbia/NYU go to New York which is the largest legal market.
-Chicago goes to Chicago.
-M goes to Detroit maybe(???). I'm guessing there is a larger market (probably Chicago or New York that Michigan grads go into)
-V goes to DC (which is a smaller, more competitive market than NY). I suppose Virginia might feed into Atlanta as well.
-P goes to Philadelphia maybe(???). Likewise with M, I'm guessing there's a larger market aside from Philadelphia.

It'd be interesting to see how two schools compare in a neutral market. For example, how do Chicago and Columbia compare for placement in San Francisco (taking into account the relative class sizes)? Or how do NYU and Penn compare for placement in Houston?

[dominkay]

One other consideration is where people from MVP go to work and where people from CCN go to work. I think one reason why MVP were hit harder than CCN is the market that those schools feed into.

-Columbia/NYU go to New York which is the largest legal market.
-Chicago goes to Chicago.
-M goes to Detroit maybe(???). I'm guessing there is a larger market (probably Chicago or New York that Michigan grads go into)
-V goes to DC (which is a smaller, more competitive market than NY). I suppose Virginia might feed into Atlanta as well.
-P goes to Philadelphia maybe(???). Likewise with M, I'm guessing there's a larger market aside from Philadelphia.

It'd be interesting to see how two schools compare in a neutral market. For example, how do Chicago and Columbia compare for placement in San Francisco (taking into account the relative class sizes)? Or how do NYU and Penn compare for placement in Houston?

V sends people about equally to NY and DC, and P is a New York powerhouse. People from M and Chicago also go to New York in droves.

[270910]

One other consideration is where people from MVP go to work and where people from CCN go to work. I think one reason why MVP were hit harder than CCN is the market that those schools feed into.

-Columbia/NYU go to New York which is the largest legal market.
-Chicago goes to Chicago.
-M goes to Detroit maybe(???). I'm guessing there is a larger market (probably Chicago or New York that Michigan grads go into)
-V goes to DC (which is a smaller, more competitive market than NY). I suppose Virginia might feed into Atlanta as well.
-P goes to Philadelphia maybe(???). Likewise with M, I'm guessing there's a larger market aside from Philadelphia.

It'd be interesting to see how two schools compare in a neutral market. For example, how do Chicago and Columbia compare for placement in San Francisco (taking into account the relative class sizes)? Or how do NYU and Penn compare for placement in Houston?

V sends people about equally to NY and DC, and P is a New York powerhouse. People from M and Chicago also go to New York in droves.

Also, there's no evidence that MVP were hit worse than CCN. If anything, it looks like recruiting was down (roughly) 30-35% across the T14.

[Chuch]

-Columbia/NYU go to New York which is the largest legal market.
-Chicago goes to Chicago.
-M goes to Detroit maybe(???). I'm guessing there is a larger market (probably Chicago or New York that Michigan grads go into)
-V goes to DC (which is a smaller, more competitive market than NY). I suppose Virginia might feed into Atlanta as well.
-P goes to Philadelphia maybe(???). Likewise with M, I'm guessing there's a larger market aside from Philadelphia.

[bubba]

I had this decision to make and chose to go to CCN. At this point i am pretty much biglaw or bust and wanted to maximize my chances. That said, if I had gotten the fat 67k scholarship Michigan offers some people I would have probably chosen to go there. PM me if you want to discuss in more detail.

[Core]

-Columbia/NYU go to New York which is the largest legal market.
-Chicago goes to Chicago.
-M goes to Detroit maybe(???). I'm guessing there is a larger market (probably Chicago or New York that Michigan grads go into)
-V goes to DC (which is a smaller, more competitive market than NY). I suppose Virginia might feed into Atlanta as well.
-P goes to Philadelphia maybe(???). Likewise with M, I'm guessing there's a larger market aside from Philadelphia.

LOL

[Patriot1208]

I hate these hypotheticals... won't it be funny when you are rejected from all of them.

[Core]

It really depends on what you want to do and where you want to work. I would probably take CCN over MVP with $45k.
I chose Penn with a $78k scholly over Chicago at sticker, but I want to work in NYC, so it made sense (although I'm having second thoughts as I read that CCN is placing ~20-25% more of its grads into biglaw).

[dresden doll]

I had this decision to make and chose to go to CCN. At this point i am pretty much biglaw or bust and wanted to maximize my chances. That said, if I had gotten the fat 67k scholarship Michigan offers some people I would have probably chosen to go there. PM me if you want to discuss in more detail.

That was the fat scholarship I alluded to in my earlier post. I rejected it, after much ado. I don't think I'm regretting that, though, at this point in time, given the comfort level of the 69 percent figure from last year's OCI.

[bubba]

I had this decision to make and chose to go to CCN. At this point i am pretty much biglaw or bust and wanted to maximize my chances. That said, if I had gotten the fat 67k scholarship Michigan offers some people I would have probably chosen to go there. PM me if you want to discuss in more detail.

That was the fat scholarship I alluded to in my earlier post. I rejected it, after much ado. I don't think I'm regretting that, though, at this point in time, given the comfort level of the 69 percent figure from last year's OCI.

at the end of the day it's a good decision to have. i'm sure other things like environment and location came into play in your decision. chicago is a great school and i'm sure it will work out fine for you.

[Chuch]

if you go to ccn and do well you will regret not taking the money. if you go to ccn and do poorly you will regret not taking the money. the only spot passing on the money makes sense is if you end up in whatever portion of the class that gets hired from ccn but not from mvp. some are saying that's 10-20%. others are saying 3-5% at cc and -.9% at n. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law ... iglaw-job/
45k is a lot of money. even if it feels like a drop in the bucket. after interest something like an additional $800/month over life of your loan.

[bgdddymtty]

The numbers I came up with after using going through a financial decision-tree analysis are pretty similar, although MPV at $45K/yr. at the current hiring rates has a very slight edge in terms of NPV.

As a numbers nerd and MBA, I have to ask: what discount rate did you use, and what was your time horizon?

[como]

The numbers I came up with after using going through a financial decision-tree analysis are pretty similar, although MPV at $45K/yr. at the current hiring rates has a very slight edge in terms of NPV.

As a numbers nerd and MBA, I have to ask: what discount rate did you use, and what was your time horizon?

I used a five-year T-bill rate and a 5-year time horizon (assuming up-and-out in five). Like I said, it's not a very thorough or useful analysis. There are so many factors. I basically just used the 2009 SA offer rates as a probability (p) of biglaw cashflows and assumed that (1-p) will nail the median salary cashflows (~60K/yr. increased by 5K/yr thereafter).

[SuichiKurama]

if you go to ccn and do well you will regret not taking the money. if you go to ccn and do poorly you will regret not taking the money. the only spot passing on the money makes sense is if you end up in whatever portion of the class that gets hired from ccn but not from mvp. some are saying that's 10-20%. others are saying 3-5% at cc and -.9% at n. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law ... iglaw-job/
45k is a lot of money. even if it feels like a drop in the bucket. after interest something like an additional $800/month over life of your loan.

The funny thing about this is if you do actually end up in this spot, you probably won't know it. So in the end you will essentially regret taking the 45K anyway you look at it.

[Chuch]

The funny thing about this is if you do actually end up in this spot, you probably won't know it. So in the end you will essentially regret taking the 45K anyway you look at it.

regret taking, or regret not taking?

[doyleoil]

if you go to ccn and do well you will regret not taking the money. if you go to ccn and do poorly you will regret not taking the money. the only spot passing on the money makes sense is if you end up in whatever portion of the class that gets hired from ccn but not from mvp. some are saying that's 10-20%. others are saying 3-5% at cc and -.9% at n. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law ... iglaw-job/
45k is a lot of money. even if it feels like a drop in the bucket. after interest something like an additional $800/month over life of your loan.

The funny thing about this is if you do actually end up in this spot, you probably won't know it. So in the end you will essentially regret taking the 45K anyway you look at it.

There's so much naivete and fail in both these posts it's hard to know where to begin.

[Chuch]

There's so much naivete and fail in both these posts it's hard to know where to begin.

re: helpful posts, i suspect you struggle with more than just the beginning.

[rayiner]

if you go to ccn and do well you will regret not taking the money. if you go to ccn and do poorly you will regret not taking the money. the only spot passing on the money makes sense is if you end up in whatever portion of the class that gets hired from ccn but not from mvp. some are saying that's 10-20%. others are saying 3-5% at cc and -.9% at n. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/best-law ... iglaw-job/
45k is a lot of money. even if it feels like a drop in the bucket. after interest something like an additional $800/month over life of your loan.

The funny thing about this is if you do actually end up in this spot, you probably won't know it. So in the end you will essentially regret taking the 45K anyway you look at it.

There's so much naivete and fail in both these posts it's hard to know where to begin.

Doyle is right. $45k is a lot of money, but you gotta look at the expected return. The salary differential between a biglaw career and a non-biglaw career over, say, 5 years is $600k at the very minimum. CCN only needs to give you a 10% better chance at biglaw than MVP in order for the expected return to outweigh the money, and the data seems to suggest that is the case.