167/3.4, where to go if want a job in NY or Washington DC Forum

[fedexmalcom]

Thank you for everyone helping me here! Your advices are mostly appreciated.
I modified my question according to your insightful opinions.

I am looking for a Law Schools which I have some chances of getting into and
which could prepare me for legal career in NY or Washington DC.

I agree that I should get into the best law schools I can while taking a serious
consideration of debt. Here is my current list for consideration: GWU, Fordham,
BC, Brooklyn, Yeshiva(Cardozo). Thank you for telling me how to retake the lsat,
but now please take my 167 as the final score.

I have extended the range of discussion here. Please recommend more law schools.
They are not necessary to be in NY region or Washington DC.

[Jack Smirks]

Law Schools which could prepare me well for bar exam in NY are preferred.
I know my LSAT is low but I have to use this for application. Anyone with
any suggestion is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

We are numbers twins... and we're fucked.

[JusticeHarlan]

Fordham seems like the obvious match for your numbers (I was waitlisted with 166/3.4 after applying in late December). Apply early, and if you can slip a "why Fordham" section into your personal statement, your odds would be pretty solid. Be prepared to pay sticker + NYC cost of living, though.

[Jack Smirks]

Fordham seems like the obvious match for your numbers (I was waitlisted with 166/3.4 after applying in late December). Apply early, and if you can slip a "why Fordham" section into your personal statement, your odds would be pretty solid. Be prepared to pay sticker + NYC cost of living, though.

Really sticker? The ranges are 3.37-3.74 162-167 so he's in the 75th percentile of his LSAT. You don't think he will get anything?

[waitlisted1]

Fordham seems like the obvious match for your numbers (I was waitlisted with 166/3.4 after applying in late December). Apply early, and if you can slip a "why Fordham" section into your personal statement, your odds would be pretty solid. Be prepared to pay sticker + NYC cost of living, though.

JusticeHarlan did you get in off the waitlist? if so, are you going to fordham? if so, are you going to pay sticker?

[Bildungsroman]

Fordham seems like the obvious match for your numbers (I was waitlisted with 166/3.4 after applying in late December). Apply early, and if you can slip a "why Fordham" section into your personal statement, your odds would be pretty solid. Be prepared to pay sticker + NYC cost of living, though.

Really sticker? The ranges are 3.37-3.74 162-167 so he's in the 75th percentile of his LSAT. You don't think he will get anything?

lawschoolnumbers indicates that Fordham is unlikely to give schollies to 167s unless they have a GPA at or above median.

[romothesavior]

Law Schools which could prepare me well for bar exam in NY are preferred.
I know my LSAT is low but I have to use this for application. Anyone with
any suggestion is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Why do you have to use this one? Could you retake? I ask because a 169 will bring Cornell into the discussion and could land you a little money at Fordham.

[JusticeHarlan]

Fordham seems like the obvious match for your numbers (I was waitlisted with 166/3.4 after applying in late December). Apply early, and if you can slip a "why Fordham" section into your personal statement, your odds would be pretty solid. Be prepared to pay sticker + NYC cost of living, though.

Really sticker? The ranges are 3.37-3.74 162-167 so he's in the 75th percentile of his LSAT. You don't think he will get anything?

It's a guess, and its certainly worth applying because if you're above median you're certainly in the running for some cash, but you're mistake here is looking at range, rather than median. It's certainly misleading, because US News prominently lists the ranges, but the formula for the rankings only takes into account median LSAT and GPA scores, not the range. Therefore, the schools only truly care about medians because its the only one that can help them move up (or even sustain) their rankings. LSAT is more important, if you could only be above one that's the one that's good to be above, but being below the GPA median doesn't help. Best bet is to apply early and send some apps to peer schools to leverage scholarship offers (places like that are higher ranked but have lower medians and are known to be generous with scholarship money would be ideal, Emory or some Midwest schools, maybe).

JusticeHarlan did you get in off the waitlist? if so, are you going to fordham? if so, are you going to pay sticker?

I withdrew from the wait list.

[Jack Smirks]

Law Schools which could prepare me well for bar exam in NY are preferred.
I know my LSAT is low but I have to use this for application. Anyone with
any suggestion is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I don't know, consider retake? I've thought about it but I'm afraid even if I crack a 170 my 3.4 ruins everything and from what it sounds like you might be in the same boat w/ Fordham. With a $50,000 + sticker you might want to think about getting the fuck out of NY.

[Jack Smirks]

Fordham seems like the obvious match for your numbers (I was waitlisted with 166/3.4 after applying in late December). Apply early, and if you can slip a "why Fordham" section into your personal statement, your odds would be pretty solid. Be prepared to pay sticker + NYC cost of living, though.

Really sticker? The ranges are 3.37-3.74 162-167 so he's in the 75th percentile of his LSAT. You don't think he will get anything?

It's a guess, and its certainly worth applying because if you're above median you're certainly in the running for some cash, but you're mistake here is looking at range, rather than median. It's certainly misleading, because US News prominently lists the ranges, but the formula for the rankings only takes into account median LSAT and GPA scores, not the range. Therefore, the schools only truly care about medians because its the only one that can help them move up (or even sustain) their rankings.

Yeah I checked median, it's 166 so probably no scholly money. OP you might look into EDing at Cornell.

[Eric475]

Law Schools which could prepare me well for bar exam in NY are preferred.
I know my LSAT is low but I have to use this for application. Anyone with
any suggestion is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I don't know, consider retake? I've thought about it but I'm afraid even if I crack a 170 my 3.4 ruins everything and from what it sounds like you might be in the same boat w/ Fordham. With a $50,000 + sticker you might want to think about getting the fuck out of NY.

It's an expensive city. Expensive state too.

[vanwinkle]

Fordham is notorious for giving less scholarship $$ in total than many peer schools, in part because they don't have as large an endowment. You have a chance at getting in at Fordham, but not really getting much money. Even people with good numbers shouldn't count on huge amounts of money from Fordham.

Look at Cardozo and Brooklyn. Those are schools that will likely take you and probably offer you at least something for your LSAT score.

[dominkay]

Fordham is notorious for giving less scholarship $$ in total than many peer schools, in part because they don't have as large an endowment. You have a chance at getting in at Fordham, but not really getting much money. Even people with good numbers shouldn't count on huge amounts of money from Fordham.

Look at Cardozo and Brooklyn. Those are schools that will likely take you and probably offer you at least something for your LSAT score.

I feel like even with big $$$, Brooklyn and Cardozo are not a better choice than Fordham. Aren't both schools known to section stack? Or is that just a rumor?

[vanwinkle]

Fordham is notorious for giving less scholarship $$ in total than many peer schools, in part because they don't have as large an endowment. You have a chance at getting in at Fordham, but not really getting much money. Even people with good numbers shouldn't count on huge amounts of money from Fordham.

Look at Cardozo and Brooklyn. Those are schools that will likely take you and probably offer you at least something for your LSAT score.

I feel like even with big $$$, Brooklyn and Cardozo are not a better choice than Fordham. Aren't both schools known to section stack? Or is that just a rumor?

1) I've heard a lot of argument and rumor on section-stacking at Cardozo, but no proof. They do put restrictions on some of their scholarships, which IMO is BS, but increasingly common once you get outside the T1 school range.

2) Depending on someone's career goals, $$$ at Cardozo/Brooklyn may be a much better thing than Fordham at sticker. Unless you're set on aiming for NYC BigLaw, you're probably better off going for the reduced debt.

[fedexmalcom]

Thank you for everyone who replied to my post!
I took three LSATs in last two years so no more chance. The latest one is the best.
Because no one here mentioned GWU, I definitely need some suggestions about
GWU. According to USnews, many GWU students take bar exam in NY. Can anyone
advise on my chances of getting into GWU and how GWU fits my career plan?
Any suggestion is appreciated! Thanks a lot!

[shutterbug]

To the OP: What reality are you living in that you consider a 167 a "low" score?

[northwood]

go to the best school you can get into,if possible with a scholarship. It doesnt matter where the school is located. What you have to do is over the summer get an intership in NY, and network like crazy for the entire summer. Do it again in your next summer. After you graduate, move to NY and take a bar review course.

[D-ROCCA]

No schools prepare you for the bar exam; it's completely unrelated-hence, the 2 month BARBRI courses you have to take in order pass.
I'd follow vanwinkle's advice-try to put yourself in a situation where you have (1) the least amount of debt while (2) not totally eliminating yourself from competing for viable legal employment after graduation.

[JusticeHarlan]

First, the above response is credited, in that passing the bar in New York will be an option from any reputable law school (plus a bar review course). It doesn't have to be a school in the region you're hoping to be practicing in.

However, being able to pass the bar won't help unless you're able to get a job in that state. Therefore, saying that a lot of GW grads take the bar in NY is useful in that it indicates GW grads are employable in NY (at least pre-ITE), rather than because it prepares its student well for the bar (assuming this is true).

As for GW, its within your target range, as its median LSAT is 167, but again, your GPA is lower than the median. You have a shot, and its worth applying, but you should neither count on getting in, or getting any money if you do.

Also, I believe you can take the LSAT again if you get a school to vouch for you (someone else can answer more thoroughly on this). Email a school's admissions office, tell them how much you want to attend but feel another shot at the LSAT would be a better expression of your potential, or something like that. Again, someone else can provide more info here, everything I know is second or third hand.

[fedexmalcom]

First, the above response is credited, in that passing the bar in New York will be an option from any reputable law school (plus a bar review course). It doesn't have to be a school in the region you're hoping to be practicing in.

However, being able to pass the bar won't help unless you're able to get a job in that state. Therefore, saying that a lot of GW grads take the bar in NY is useful in that it indicates GW grads are employable in NY (at least pre-ITE), rather than because it prepares its student well for the bar (assuming this is true).

As for GW, its within your target range, as its median LSAT is 167, but again, your GPA is lower than the median. You have a shot, and its worth applying, but you should neither count on getting in, or getting any money if you do.

Also, I believe you can take the LSAT again if you get a school to vouch for you (someone else can answer more thoroughly on this). Email a school's admissions office, tell them how much you want to attend but feel another shot at the LSAT would be a better expression of your potential, or something like that. Again, someone else can provide more info here, everything I know is second or third hand.

That is really helpful. I need to modify my question. I am looking for a law school which I have
some chances of getting in and which offers preparation for my legal career in NY or Washington DC. GWU has ten thousand applicants and I wonder what makes this school so appealing. Do GWU students have good employment in NY? I might add it to my list thought I understand it is not very promising.

[JusticeHarlan]

First, the above response is credited, in that passing the bar in New York will be an option from any reputable law school (plus a bar review course). It doesn't have to be a school in the region you're hoping to be practicing in.

However, being able to pass the bar won't help unless you're able to get a job in that state. Therefore, saying that a lot of GW grads take the bar in NY is useful in that it indicates GW grads are employable in NY (at least pre-ITE), rather than because it prepares its student well for the bar (assuming this is true).

As for GW, its within your target range, as its median LSAT is 167, but again, your GPA is lower than the median. You have a shot, and its worth applying, but you should neither count on getting in, or getting any money if you do.

Also, I believe you can take the LSAT again if you get a school to vouch for you (someone else can answer more thoroughly on this). Email a school's admissions office, tell them how much you want to attend but feel another shot at the LSAT would be a better expression of your potential, or something like that. Again, someone else can provide more info here, everything I know is second or third hand.

That is really helpful. I need to modify my question. I am looking for a law school which I have
some chances of getting in and which offers preparation for my legal career in NY or Washington DC. GWU has ten thousand applicants and I wonder what makes this school so appealing. Do GWU students have good employment in NY? I might add it to my list thought I understand it is not very promising.

Assuming you don't retake (which, again, is still possibly and might be helpful), you would look at schools like Cornell (reach), Fordham (where if you get in you'd probably pay sticker), Cardozo (good chance at good $$), and Brooklyn (ditto) for NYC, and for DC GW, William & Mary, Washington & Lee, George Mason and maybe American (WM and WL should be good for some money, George Mason and American all the more so). Might be worth a part time, ED app to Georgetown, if you're willing to do PT for at least a year (they have a program where you can transfer to full time after your first year, I think). GW is the only one of those schools that gives any real crossover reach (DC and NYC) and you should do your research on employment prospects from each before committing to anything; those schools should be on your list, though. Add whatever reaches you feel like paying the app fees for, but don't expect much. Also, BU places decently in NYC (though ITE I wouldn't bank of getting much pull outside of Boston there, considering how NYC firms are cutting back) and you'd have a good shot there.

Check law school predictor and law school numbers for what your chances for getting in for schools are (not perfect predictors but reasonably reliable), and the NALP directory (LinkRemoved) can give you a decent (but, again, imperfect) guide to what firms from what city interview at each school. Also, go to the websites of firms in cities you're interested in; most have a function to search through their attorneys by what law school they went to, so you can get a sense that way.

[vanwinkle]

I would be really wary of the DC job market if I were you. Even in a better economy, it was 1) smaller than the NYC job market and 2) being flooded with jobseekers. ITE it's a bloodbath trying to find work there, depending on what you're trying to do. Even at UVA and GULC there are kids above median who are struggling to find jobs in the DC market. Based on everything I've observed so far I think DC is the hardest market to get into in the country, and will probably remain so for some time.

Look at what places well in NYC, and base your decision on that. Alternately, study and retake the LSAT to try to get a 170+, and aim for a T14 school that might give you a shot at both locations.

[onthemoney]

I got the LSAT fourth time waiver from UCLA and Duke.

[danquayle]

I'd argue for GW, Fordham or any T1 school you can milk a full ride out of...

[JusticeHarlan]

I would be really wary of the DC job market if I were you. Even in a better economy, it was 1) smaller than the NYC job market and 2) being flooded with jobseekers. ITE it's a bloodbath trying to find work there, depending on what you're trying to do. Even at UVA and GULC there are kids above median who are struggling to find jobs in the DC market. Based on everything I've observed so far I think DC is the hardest market to get into in the country, and will probably remain so for some time.

Look at what places well in NYC, and base your decision on that. Alternately, study and retake the LSAT to try to get a 170+, and aim for a T14 school that might give you a shot at both locations.

Interesting analysis, vanwinkle. I had thought the consensus was that DC had weathered the storm better than most markets, but I guess maybe not. In your opinion, would it be better right now (assuming at or near median) trying to make it in DC out of GULC or in NYC out of Cornell? Or to move down the rankings a bit, would someone gunning for NYC from Fordham or someone trying for DC from GW be in better shape?