$WashU vs $$Houston. Going for patent law Forum

[chebme]

I realize for most people WashU is the obvious choice, but I have some considerations that muddle things a bit. And given WashU has a non-overlapping commitment policy, my selection will be made in the next 48 hours.

I've already been to WashU for 5 years for my BS/MS degrees.
I'm working as a chemical engineer in Houston right now, and I am looking to go into intellectual property law, particularly patent law.

Right now, with scholarships included, tuition at UH is about $12,000, and tuition at WashU is about $28,000. With interest on the extra loan, I'm thinking over $60,000 extra debt.

Given my background in chemical engineering and the fact that Texas has become one of the largest areas for patent law (I believe mostly litigation), there is a pretty good chance I will end up in Houston (with its very low cost of living). I also have no desire to live in New York, and all of my family and friends have said they think I'm too laid back for Washington D.C., saying that it would be much faster paced and more cutthroat. However, I don't know if I plan on staying in Houston forever, as the climate leaves something to be desired. In that respect, WashU is likely to have some more mobility, even after my first job(s).
90% of UH grads stay in Texas, mostly Houston. About 3% or so of WashU grads come to this part of the country while 25% go to the east coast, and 8% go to the west coast. (I think this was the 2008 numbers) Some lawyers I've talk to think the 3% is more self-selection than firms not wanting WashU grads.

WashU has much nicer facilities and a very nice campus. I definitely know that. However, some people have mentioned that in 3 years, it won't matter. Also, if I choose to study somewhere not in the law school building, it won't matter much either.

I do not have family in Texas, but having been here almost 3 years, I've gotten to know people. Family lives in KY and MD.



So, it's really come down to prestige vs less debt. Though it's not certain, I would likely end up in the same city unless WashU has a tougher time in Houston. The prestige and extra mobility with a WashU degree is still alluring.

If any of you can think of something I haven't, that would be much appreciated.

[romothesavior]

In before Romo

[romothesavior]

Where DO you want to practice? Instead of telling us where you don't, it would be nice to have some idea where you want to be.

Have you tried negotiating with WUSTL?

What are your numbers?

[stratocophic]

In before Romo

i r confuzed

Future WUSTL IP here. Out of curiosity, was Texas ever an option? Would it be if you reapplied?

[kalvano]

Go to WUSTL. Houston is a nice school, but not that nice.

You don't know where you want to be exactly, and you sound like you like to wander around a bit.

WUSTL will carry you farther.

[OliverWendellHomie]

So, it's really come down to prestige vs less debt. Though it's not certain, I would likely end up in the same city unless WashU has a tougher time in Houston. The prestige and extra mobility with a WashU degree is still alluring.

If any of you can think of something I haven't, that would be much appreciated.

It's a no-brainer: WashU all the way. It's not just about the prestige though. You will have infinitely better job prospects in Texas and even Houston out of WashU. Furthermore, going to WashU again for law school shows loyalty, and alums will most definitely see that as a plus. There's no good reason to go to Houston. You already have strong ties there since you worked there for a few years, so going to Houston law will only marginally demonstrate a greater commitment to the city.

[najumobi]

60k of debt isn't worth it if you know you want to do IP law in houston. i really don't think whether or not you go to wustl would have much of an effect on your ability to line up a ip law job in houston. you'd have nothing to gain by going to wustl. your houston connections and your science background will be enough.

i disagree with oliver. i don't think wustl has much clout in texas. if you look at wustl's placement in that region it looks like the only wustl grads placing in there are for the most part people are from there. wustl placement on the pacific coast and west south central (texas, ok, ar, la) mirror each other in this way.

EDIT: woops....didn't see that OP doesn't want to be in houston....go with WUSTL.

[romothesavior]

I'd say this depends on where OP wants to practice. We get where he doesn't want to practice, but that doesn't help much. It sounds like (s)he doesn't want to be in Houston long term though.

[chebme]

168/2.93
Already got a scholarship boost.

Only mentioned where I don't want to go because a lot of people like to suggest New York or DC for big salaries (for paying back loans), failing to remember that living in New York is 2x the cost of living of Houston or St. Louis. I don't mind Houston actually (though I will have to travel for my snow). From who I've talked to (including a VP at a chemical company who is in charge of their IP), "everything" goes through Houston. I am trying to be practical. Jobs and the economy are in Houston. Now, do I know I want to be here forever? No. Not 100%. I am just saying there is a good chance regardless that I will be in Houston.

Follow up questions:
Think WashU will have no problem securing a job in Houston?
After the first job(s) how much will the school affect moving elsewhere?

Thanks so far.

[romothesavior]

168/2.93
Already got a scholarship boost.

Only mentioned where I don't want to go because a lot of people like to suggest New York or DC for big salaries (for paying back loans), failing to remember that living in New York is 2x the cost of living of Houston or St. Louis. I don't mind Houston actually (though I will have to travel for my snow). From who I've talked to (including a VP at a chemical company who is in charge of their IP), "everything" goes through Houston. I am trying to be practical. Jobs and the economy are in Houston. Now, do I know I want to be here forever? No. Not 100%. I am just saying there is a good chance regardless that I will be in Houston.

Follow up questions:
Think WashU will have no problem securing a job in Houston?
After the first job(s) how much will the school affect moving elsewhere?

Thanks so far.

I vote Houston, if you want Houston.

[keg411]

168/2.93
Already got a scholarship boost.

Only mentioned where I don't want to go because a lot of people like to suggest New York or DC for big salaries (for paying back loans), failing to remember that living in New York is 2x the cost of living of Houston or St. Louis. I don't mind Houston actually (though I will have to travel for my snow). From who I've talked to (including a VP at a chemical company who is in charge of their IP), "everything" goes through Houston. I am trying to be practical. Jobs and the economy are in Houston. Now, do I know I want to be here forever? No. Not 100%. I am just saying there is a good chance regardless that I will be in Houston.

Follow up questions:
Think WashU will have no problem securing a job in Houston?
After the first job(s) how much will the school affect moving elsewhere?

Thanks so far.

I vote Houston, if you want Houston.

+1

Being practical FTW!

To answer your questions, though - I don't think WUSTL has very much pull in Houston. You are better off staying local. As for your second question, you will probably take the bar in TX and stay in TX if you go to Houston. You will probably take the bar in a midwest state if you go to WUSTL and stay in that state (IL, MO, etc). Law is not a mobile profession no matter where you go to school.

[romothesavior]

If you want to be in Houston, go to Houston.

If you want to be anyonere else, go to WUSTL.

[keg411]

If you want to be in Houston, go to Houston.

If you want to be anyonere else, go to WUSTL.

Unless "anywhere else" is "anywhere in TX".

[Bosque]

I am trying to think... where is the closest market he could get an IP job in if he went to WUSTL? Chicago? Pretty sure there is little to none going on in St. Louis (maybe at the university and a few companies in house, but I doubt much more than that).

[najumobi]

I am trying to think... where is the closest market he could get an IP job in if he went to WUSTL? Chicago? Pretty sure there is little to none going on in St. Louis (maybe at the university and a few companies in house, but I doubt much more than that).

chicago is probably right.

[Bosque]

I am trying to think... where is the closest market he could get an IP job in if he went to WUSTL? Chicago? Pretty sure there is little to none going on in St. Louis (maybe at the university and a few companies in house, but I doubt much more than that).

chicago is probably right.

Thought so. So really the question is, OP, do you want to work in Houston (and maybe Dallas), or do you want to work in Chicago?

[OliverWendellHomie]

To be fair, their are legitimate IP jobs at the big firms in St. Louis (e.g. Bryan Cave, Lewis Rice, Hinshaw Culberstson, etc.). Furthermore, it may be more practical for OP to consider secondary markets like St. Louis given that legal markets like NY and Chicago have been hit especially hard by the recession.

[nealric]

WUSTL is a terribly overrated school by USNEWS and UH is terribly underrated school by USNEWS. In terms of large firm placement, they actually are not far apart.

Don't quit your job. Go to UH part time.

[OliverWendellHomie]

WUSTL is a terribly overrated school by USNEWS and UH is terribly underrated school by USNEWS. In terms of large firm placement, they actually are not far apart.

Don't quit your job. Go to UH part time.

Care to back up your point with stats? How to do you quantify terribly overrated or terribly underrated? Do you take issue with a particular factor used by USNWR to come up with the rankings? Sounds like you're just a UH law alum who can't come to terms with your school's inability to break the top 50. Bummer

OP, here are the stats for large firm placement at the top 250 firms:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

This should help you ground your decision in statistics rather the unadulterated puffery that Nealric is spewing.

[romothesavior]

I disagree with nealric that WUSTL is "terribly overrated," but I agree with his general conclusion. UH PT is probably a good bet.

[nealric]

Sounds like you're just a UH law alum who can't come to terms with your school's inability to break the top 50. Bummer

LOL, sorry. I'm a T14 alum.

I base my conclusions on NLJ 250/clerkship placement. The chart is floating around somewhere, I don't feel like looking it up again. You also have to note that UH is the best law school in Houston, which is a major legal market. Few T2's can boast that. For that reason, UH is consistently the best placing T2 in the country. By contrast, WUSTL consistently underperforms it's rankings based on NLJ 250/Clerkship placement.

From the OP's perspective:
Going to WUSTL would mean walking away from a lucrative job AND paying significantly more tuition. UH is a much less risky proposition.

[najumobi]

Sounds like you're just a UH law alum who can't come to terms with your school's inability to break the top 50. Bummer

LOL, sorry. I'm a T14 alum.

I base my conclusions on NLJ 250/clerkship placement. The chart is floating around somewhere, I don't feel like looking it up again. You also have to note that UH is the best law school in Houston, which is a major legal market. Few T2's can boast that. For that reason, UH is consistently the best placing T2 in the country. By contrast, WUSTL consistently underperforms it's rankings based on NLJ 250/Clerkship placement.

From the OP's perspective:
Going to WUSTL would mean walking away from a lucrative job AND paying significantly more tuition. UH is a much less risky proposition.

i guess it's overrated in the sense that there are schools it marginally trails like GW, fordham, BC, and ND when comparing nlj 250/clerkship placement. but that really doesn't mean much. noone ever argues that WUSTL is better than those schools. it isn't very practical to pick between these schools based on placement since the differences are so small. It's more practical to pick between GW, WUSTL, Emory, BC,BU, ND, and UIUC based on geographical preferences.