University of Iowa or Wake Forest Forum

[GenericUserName]

Hi,

Does anyone have any insight on which of these two schools I should choose? Due to being from Ohio, Wake Forest and the University of Iowa are about the same price. I know that Iowa is consistently ranked higher according to US News but Wake has better weather and higher private practice starting salaries.

The cost of living in both areas is relatively similar as well.

I would appreciate any insight anyone might have.

Thanks,

GenericLawStudent

[ggocat]

regional schools are regional.

where do you want to practice, and where do you already have connections (grew up, went to college, etc.)?

[Regionality]

You get in-state tuition after 1L if you're willing to work 10hrs/week at Iowa. Did you knwo that?

[kalvano]

Where do you want to live and practice after school?

[GenericUserName]

As for practicing after law school, I'm thinking the midwest or northern-south (Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina). Also, are Wake and Iowa really regional schools? Iowa is 26 and Wake is 38, if these schools are not somewhat national, almost no one would be. I understand that companies from the region would be more inclined to recruit within their area, but I would think with a little extra leg work a student could move to almost anywhere in the country from either school.

I did know about the work-study item at Iowa but i did not know it was 10 hours a week. Do you know how easy it is to obtain a position and with a heavy law work load how hard is it to find 10 hours a week?

Thanks for the responses everyone

[kalvano]

Which would you prefer? Either one is very good for its region, but you basically named the two places the schools do well in as places you want to practice. That's like being asked what you want to do for dinner and saying you want food.

[dempsey]

I think the only people who would know about the flexibility of the degree would be the students attending the schools. I would bet that in a better economy, the degree might have had some mobility for the better students. But that is likely no longer the case, though I am sure there are exceptions. But by and large the only truly national schools are...the T-14 (10? 6? I don't know anymore)

[Regionality]

As for practicing after law school, I'm thinking the midwest or northern-south (Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina). Also, are Wake and Iowa really regional schools? Iowa is 26 and Wake is 38, if these schools are not somewhat national, almost no one would be. I understand that companies from the region would be more inclined to recruit within their area, but I would think with a little extra leg work a student could move to almost anywhere in the country from either school.

I did know about the work-study item at Iowa but i did not know it was 10 hours a week. Do you know how easy it is to obtain a position and with a heavy law work load how hard is it to find 10 hours a week?

Thanks for the responses everyone

they don't guarantee it but they said they never had a situation where someone who wanted/needed a research-assistant position couldn't get one.

You can't do it your first year, so you're stuck paying OOS your 1L, but if you work the semester as an RA you get in-state tuition (but you have to do it each semester you want the tuition reduction...saves a LOT of money)

[GenericUserName]

Updated information,

I spoke with an Iowa Law admissions person today and found that with a 10 hour a week legal research and writing job helping a professor my second year my tuition would drop to an in-state rate. This would save me approximately 18,000 year along with subsidized health insurance and a minimum wage stipend. This has already been mentioned but I discovered that in the past year 100% of people who applied for the position were awarded one.

Effectively, this makes Iowa around 38,000 cheaper than Wake Forest over the course of a 3 year career.

I'm not sure if that would sway anyones decision.

Thanks again,

--Brad

Off topic, but it seems like a lot of people on this site post about the Top 15 schools they have been accepted too. I was really excited about getting into a school ranked in the top 26 but everywhere else I see posts about Michigan, Duke, etc... Ohh well, I guess you can't score better than everyone on the LSAT

[Grizz]

Iowa because it's way cheaper. Make sure you're okay with practicing in Iowa. Wake isn't worth sticker (I assume you're paying sticker?). And school self-reported stats are BS.

[GenericUserName]

I would be paying sticker at both Iowa and Wake in my first year. I did receive scholarships of medium value, but they were to Penn State and the University of Cincinnati which do not carry the same academic prestige as the two schools I am currently looking at. With the scholarships, the education would be around 30,000 cheaper than Wake over the course of the 3 year career. I did not see the difference as enough of one to sway my decision

Actually, with the job at Iowa it becomes my most highly ranked and probably cheapest option. Working 10 hours a week during law school is a significant draw back though

[Grizz]

I would be paying sticker at both Iowa and Wake in my first year. I did receive scholarships of medium value, but they were to Penn State and the University of Cincinnati which do not carry the same academic prestige as the two schools I am currently looking at. With the scholarships, the education would be around 30,000 cheaper than Wake over the course of the 3 year career. I did not see the difference as enough of one to sway my decision

Actually, with the job at Iowa it becomes my most highly ranked and probably cheapest option. Working 10 hours a week during law school is a significant draw back though

You're talking a lot about rankings, which don't matter that much. Simple fact of the matter is that if you go to Iowa there's an overwhelming chance that you'll be working in Iowa, and the equivalent in NC for Wake. Surrounding states are also a possibility, but again, make sure you're okay with practicing in Iowa or NC.

I reiterate not going to Wake at sticker. I can't think of anyone who would tell you that Wake at sticker is a good idea, either.

[ggocat]

You're talking a lot about rankings, which don't matter that much. Simple fact of the matter is that if you go to Iowa there's an overwhelming chance that you'll be working in Iowa, and the equivalent in NC for Wake. Surrounding states are also a possibility, but again, make sure you're okay with practicing in Iowa or NC.

Agree with the rankings bit, but not with the rest. I think Iowa employers are going to look at you funny if the only connection you have to the state is "OMG, Iowa is prestigious!" I think OP will have better luck going "back home" (wherever that is, OP didn't answer my question). OCI/2L hiring employers are looking for someone who is going to stick around after graduation. They want (or at least wanted in a regular economy) the summer class to return. I think someone from outside the region is going to have a harder time convincing employers they want to stick around compared to convincing employers "back home." It's easier to explain why you went to school out of state (to an employer in your home state) than it is to explain why you want to work in a state that you only came to for school.

[JOThompson]

GenericUserName: Unless you have a geographic or weather preference, you should go to Iowa. It's potentially much cheaper and enjoys better placement.

Unfortunately, Iowa is not what most people could classify as a national school. If you rely on the school's employment statistics, you will see that a number of people secure jobs in the west, but that's the exception to the rule.

You're talking a lot about rankings, which don't matter that much. Simple fact of the matter is that if you go to Iowa there's an overwhelming chance that you'll be working in Iowa, and the equivalent in NC for Wake. Surrounding states are also a possibility, but again, make sure you're okay with practicing in Iowa or NC.

Overwhelming chance of practicing law in the midwest, yes. Iowa grads disperse fairly widely throughout the region and only around 30% remain in Iowa.

[keg411]

As for practicing after law school, I'm thinking the midwest or northern-south (Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina). Also, are Wake and Iowa really regional schools? Iowa is 26 and Wake is 38, if these schools are not somewhat national, almost no one would be. I understand that companies from the region would be more inclined to recruit within their area, but I would think with a little extra leg work a student could move to almost anywhere in the country from either school.

I did know about the work-study item at Iowa but i did not know it was 10 hours a week. Do you know how easy it is to obtain a position and with a heavy law work load how hard is it to find 10 hours a week?

Thanks for the responses everyone

There are 14 national schools. And of those 14, at least 4 of them are even somewhat regional (BCNG). Every other school is regional for 90% of the grads. OP, you need to pick where you want to practice between Iowa and NC. If you are from Ohio, you were not smart to turn down Cincy with $$.

[Regionality]

You're talking a lot about rankings, which don't matter that much. Simple fact of the matter is that if you go to Iowa there's an overwhelming chance that you'll be working in Iowa, and the equivalent in NC for Wake. Surrounding states are also a possibility, but again, make sure you're okay with practicing in Iowa or NC.

Agree with the rankings bit, but not with the rest. I think Iowa employers are going to look at you funny if the only connection you have to the state is "OMG, Iowa is prestigious!" I think OP will have better luck going "back home" (wherever that is, OP didn't answer my question). OCI/2L hiring employers are looking for someone who is going to stick around after graduation. They want (or at least wanted in a regular economy) the summer class to return. I think someone from outside the region is going to have a harder time convincing employers they want to stick around compared to convincing employers "back home." It's easier to explain why you went to school out of state (to an employer in your home state) than it is to explain why you want to work in a state that you only came to for school.

Eh, I think this is a factor in hiring, but from everything I've heard, it's certainly not the main factor. If you've already spent 3 years at a law school, people generally make friends, perhaps find a significant other, and become more tied to the region. If OP wants Iowa, he should go to Iowa...it's disappointing OP had no idea about in-state tuition though bc that shows a low amount of research very late in the cycle, but it's better late than never! As for Iowa specifically...Iowa firms historically have just felt happy to get someone from Iowa law at their firm as opposed to Drake or other midwestern lower ranked schools. Many folks from Iowa law head to Chicago, St. Louis, Omaha and the coasts (if in top 10% of class) and other places with bigger markets.

Iowa is high enough ranked where people understand it draws from across the country. It's not like OP is going to #77 ranked school in random region rather than OP's hometown school ranked #85 for the 8 rank bump.

[moandersen]

I reiterate not going to Wake at sticker. I can't think of anyone who would tell you that Wake at sticker is a good idea, either.

totally depends on the situation because I was going to attend wake at sticker. there were a lot of factors that went in to that choice (no debt whatsoever from anything, $$$ in the bank, wife paying COL), but fortunately they ended up giving me a small scholarship so I dont have to worry about sticker anymore and I will graduate with ~ 90k debt - which is still a lot, but manageable.

OP: go to IOWA. I would never subject myself to living in that state, but it seems like the right choice for you.

[Regionality]

As for practicing after law school, I'm thinking the midwest or northern-south (Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina). Also, are Wake and Iowa really regional schools? Iowa is 26 and Wake is 38, if these schools are not somewhat national, almost no one would be. I understand that companies from the region would be more inclined to recruit within their area, but I would think with a little extra leg work a student could move to almost anywhere in the country from either school.

I did know about the work-study item at Iowa but i did not know it was 10 hours a week. Do you know how easy it is to obtain a position and with a heavy law work load how hard is it to find 10 hours a week?

Thanks for the responses everyone

There are 14 national schools. And of those 14, at least 4 of them are even somewhat regional (BCNG). Every other school is regional for 90% of the grads. OP, you need to pick where you want to practice between Iowa and NC. If you are from Ohio, you were not smart to turn down Cincy with $$.

Yes, but there are also exclusively regional schools (non T1's as a rule of thumb) and then schools that give you a shot at places outside their own region (T1's, for the most part). Where the shot is depends...sometimes it only reaches to bordering states (like Wisconsin placing in Chicago, or Emory placing in Florida, and so one), and sometimes it reaches further (like WUSTL placing on east coast). It's too simplistic to say "there are only 14 national schools".

[Yacht_Party]

Overwhelming chance of practicing law in the midwest, yes. Iowa grads disperse fairly widely throughout the region and only around 30% remain in Iowa.

This. I think it's a tad extreme to say you'll have to stay in Iowa. But you should definitely count on remaining in the Midwest.

Go to Iowa.

[GenericUserName]

I'm from Columbus, Ohio and attended the Ohio State University for undergrad on a scholarship. I majored in business and double majored in (1) Accounting and (2) Operations Management. Out of college I went to work for a Big 4 accounting firm and quickly realized accounting wasn't for me. I planned on going to law school as soon as I got my CPA. I finished my CPA in July and was part of a company downsizing in October. I figured after the lay offs it was a good a time as any to make the jump to law school. Because I wasn't sure on my future until October I had to scramble to take the LSAT in December and get everything else together.

I applied to about 12 schools within my LSAT range, with a couple safety schools thrown in, planning on making a decision based on a combination of region, ranking, employment figures and final cost. I actually was not admitted into Iowa until this week as I was removed from their wait list. I did do quick research on in state tuition when i originally applied to public universities, but as the Iowa work study is not exactly in-state, I didn't find it in my quick search.

I've grown up in the mid west, and outside of Raleigh and Charlotte, I do not see many cities I would want to live around Wake Forest. I do not see the Baltimore, DC, Philly, and New York areas as a place I am interested in being.

Iowa's mobility around the entire mid west is a plus for me. The fact that Iowa is one of the best schools in the mid west, as opposed to Wake being another great school in the East, also pushes me towards Iowa.

The weather will be a draw back, but what can you do.

I know message boards are not a place to make life changing decisions, but the discussions on this thread have helped me clarify my position.

Thanks everyone,

--Brad

[JOThompson]

We'll see you in Iowa City then

[Yacht_Party]

^ beat me to it.

[JOThompson]

^ beat me to it.

I'm creeping on all Iowa-related threads.

[traehekat]

Ah, I wish I would have seen this before, as it looks like OP has pretty much made up his mind.

My cycle came down to this exact choice - Wake Forest versus Iowa, out of state. The only difference was I was given a large scholarship to Wake Forest that basically made it $45,000 cheaper after the resident tuition is granted (I was given no money to Iowa at the time I made my decision, although that has changed now).

I chose to pay sticker at Iowa for a number of reasons. First and foremost is my desire to practice in the Midwest, preferably Chicago. While Iowa isn't placing the same number of graduates in Chicago as it used to, it still places them all over the Midwest and I feel it is a well respected school over a large part of the country. I've also lived in the Midwest my entire life, so I was hesitant to move away from all of my friends and family. The difference in rank between the two schools does not matter. Like others have said, these are both regional schools. They do pretty well in their respective regions, but neither has much national portability. Therefore, your decision should come down to where you want to work, and this was enough to justify the extra money I would be spending at Iowa.

I didn't see if you mentioned visiting the schools, but this helped me tremendously. I had never been to NC, so I drove down there one weekend with my friend to check it out, along with Wake Forest, of course. The admissions staff at Wake Forest is phenomenal and pretty much everyone I met down there was great. However, it is a bit of a different culture if you grew up in the Midwest, and I felt a little out of place. Wake Forest does have more money for expenditures and it is a beautiful campus, but on the flip side of this they seem to attract a certain demographic (rich, white, preppy), at least to their undergrad which you won't really avoid because the campus is a little small. I'm not even a minority, and I felt a bit uncomfortable (but then again I'm certainly not rich, either). I felt much more "at home" when I visited Iowa.

Finally I'll just say Iowa is a great school. It has consistently been high ranked, but what really caught my eye was it's evaluation score from judges/lawyers, which is near the score of lower ranked T14s. A Vault survey of recruiters and hiring managers ranks Iowa 19th on the basis of employability. The clinical opportunities at Iowa are awesome, the faculty is top notch and certainly includes some rock stars in their respective fields, and the students are incredibly bright and welcoming (at least in my experience). Due to Iowa's reputation throughout the Midwest, you should have a lot of great employment opportunities as long as you are not targeting any ONE specific market (although even if you are, many Iowa students find success even when casting a smaller net). I will also note that from everything I have been told by a lot of different people, finding a research assistant position for your second year is not difficult. You may not get the one you want, but you should be able to get something. I think almost everyone who is out-of-state does it, so it is not like you are at a huge disadvantage because you are working 10 hours a week. Your workload is usually a bit lighter your second and third years, anyway. Additionally, everyone talks about having to do a research assistantship like it is a bad thing! Working closely with a professor can be an incredibly rewarding experience, if not for the actual work you will be doing then for the relationship you will forge with a professor.

Wake is great school, and if you are dead set on practicing in North Carolina, you should absolutely go there. But if you would prefer the Midwest, and Iowa is cheaper for you in the long run, then this is almost a no-brainer - Iowa!

[Yacht_Party]

ITT: Iowa 2013 outnumbers Wake 2013

Sorry traehekat, I should have referred OP to you (knew you had seriously considered Wake).