T30 sticker v. T4 free-ride Forum

[vanwinkle]

Furthermore, taking on 100k+ in debt to get a JD (and for most of these threads the JD is coming from a T50, just not a T14 law school) is not an obviously terrible investment. I think that many folk on TLS think that if ones first legal job out of law school isn't able to pay off 30%+ of your student loans then they are destined to a life of indebted poverty...this is ridiculous. A legal career could easily be 30+ years...and that career would be nothing if someone didn't go to their "measly" T50 law school.

T50 law school + 50-75k yr after school + 30 year long career + 100k+ in debt DOES NOT EQUAL a bad decision.

I'm not aiming for BigLaw. I came to law school to do public service. I'm interning for a public defender this summer, and I hope to get that kind of job when I graduate. I'm exactly not the "T14 = 160K snobs" type the above poster articulated at all.

From that background, let me tell you that the job market right now is terrible. Someone graduating from a T50 job may not get a 50-75K/yr job after law school. Hell, some folks graduating from T14s right now are having trouble finding that much. The market is saturated.

People on TLS aren't being "Go to T14 for $160K LOL". They're being "Go to T14 for best chances of finding a job at all upon graduation." Folks right now in lower Tier 1 schools are struggling to get jobs of any sort, and that includes the "low-paying" 50-75K jobs you mention, as well as even lower-paying 35K/yr PI work that nobody at all used to want but is all the rage now because it pays something.

T14 grads are gobbling up all the 50-75K PI jobs that are out there right now, because they can't get BigLaw. Where does that leave the people graduating from the T50 school?

[Regionality]

Take the T30, the TLS crowd is ridiculously debt- averse. For most things, you have to take a risk to get a higher reward! Not everything is guaranteed like the T10 is in terms of job prospects. Of course avoiding overpriced schools like Seton Hall can be smart but i wouldnt hesitate paying sticker somewhere like GW. I go for it on 4th down and dont mind educated risks though. A lot of the elite t14 grads will never admit it but are emotionally insecure and as a result get personal satisfaction by putting down non T20 schools and think any job paying below 160K at the start is shitlaw.

No.

Care to substantiate your terse rejection? Surprise me with something other than "No.".

There are like eight things wrong with that paragraph. I'm not going to waste my time rebutting them all.

Besides the bad metaphor I largely agree with what this person is saying....T14's can't stand that other tier 1 students take their law firm jobs...and furthermore they often forget that even going to the best law school for top law firm jobs (Northwestern) only means there's a 50-50 chance of getting that gig.

If one doesn't go to law school, they can't practice law. It's hard for some money-mongering T14-or-bust elitists to fathom that other incredibly competent and intelligent law students can a) take their law firm jobs and b) make the right decision to take out debt based on a reason other than guaranteed immediate 165k salaries (which is a myth at any law school)

[09042014]

Furthermore, taking on 100k+ in debt to get a JD (and for most of these threads the JD is coming from a T50, just not a T14 law school) is not an obviously terrible investment. I think that many folk on TLS think that if ones first legal job out of law school isn't able to pay off 30%+ of your student loans then they are destined to a life of indebted poverty...this is ridiculous. A legal career could easily be 30+ years...and that career would be nothing if someone didn't go to their "measly" T50 law school.

T50 law school + 50-75k yr after school + 30 year long career + 100k+ in debt DOES NOT EQUAL a bad decision.

I'm not aiming for BigLaw. I came to law school to do public service. I'm interning for a public defender this summer, and I hope to get that kind of job when I graduate. I'm exactly not the "T14 = 160K snobs" type the above poster articulated at all.

From that background, let me tell you that the job market right now is terrible. Someone graduating from a T50 job may not get a 50-75K/yr job after law school. Hell, some folks graduating from T14s right now are having trouble finding that much. The market is saturated.

People on TLS aren't being "Go to T14 for $160K LOL". They're being "Go to T14 for best chances of finding a job at all upon graduation." Folks right now in lower Tier 1 schools are struggling to get jobs of any sort, and that includes the "low-paying" 50-75K jobs you mention, as well as even lower-paying 35K/yr PI work that nobody at all used to want but is all the rage now because it pays something.

T14 grads are gobbling up all the 50-75K PI jobs that are out there right now, because they can't get BigLaw. Where does that leave the people graduating from the T50 school?

TLS admin Corsair is graduating from a T13 with good grades and doesn't have a job. I can't imagine what is going on at other schools.

[Regionality]

Furthermore, taking on 100k+ in debt to get a JD (and for most of these threads the JD is coming from a T50, just not a T14 law school) is not an obviously terrible investment. I think that many folk on TLS think that if ones first legal job out of law school isn't able to pay off 30%+ of your student loans then they are destined to a life of indebted poverty...this is ridiculous. A legal career could easily be 30+ years...and that career would be nothing if someone didn't go to their "measly" T50 law school.

T50 law school + 50-75k yr after school + 30 year long career + 100k+ in debt DOES NOT EQUAL a bad decision.

I'm not aiming for BigLaw. I came to law school to do public service. I'm interning for a public defender this summer, and I hope to get that kind of job when I graduate. I'm exactly not the "T14 = 160K snobs" type the above poster articulated at all.

From that background, let me tell you that the job market right now is terrible. Someone graduating from a T50 job may not get a 50-75K/yr job after law school. Hell, some folks graduating from T14s right now are having trouble finding that much. The market is saturated.

People on TLS aren't being "Go to T14 for $160K LOL". They're being "Go to T14 for best chances of finding a job at all upon graduation." Folks right now in lower Tier 1 schools are struggling to get jobs of any sort, and that includes the "low-paying" 50-75K jobs you mention, as well as even lower-paying 35K/yr PI work that nobody at all used to want but is all the rage now because it pays something.

T14 grads are gobbling up all the 50-75K PI jobs that are out there right now, because they can't get BigLaw. Where does that leave the people graduating from the T50 school?

I never said you were. I am commenting on themes throughout TLS. Your pompous and dismissive response only reminded me of the elitism here on TLS.

[vanwinkle]

Besides the bad metaphor I largely agree with what this person is saying....T14's can't stand that other tier 1 students take their law firm jobs...and furthermore they often forget that even going to the best law school for top law firm jobs (Northwestern) only means there's a 50-50 chance of getting that gig.

If one doesn't go to law school, they can't practice law. It's hard for some money-mongering T14-or-bust elitists to fathom that other incredibly competent and intelligent law students can a) take their law firm jobs and b) make the right decision to take out debt based on a reason other than guaranteed immediate 165k salaries (which is a myth at any law school)

This is just as ridiculously naive and misguided as the guy you're agreeing with.

[GirlInTx]

OP consider St Johns if you are looking for a full ride. They gave one to someone with your numbers this year.

It's not so much that I'm looking for a full ride, I just won't consider paying for T3/T4 law school if I can't make it into one of the T30 (with U of H being the exception). I was simply wondering if the boost in job opportunities is that much higher with a T30, that it offsets the $100k+ in sticker tuition when you have an offer for a free ride at a TTTT.

[Regionality]

Besides the bad metaphor I largely agree with what this person is saying....T14's can't stand that other tier 1 students take their law firm jobs...and furthermore they often forget that even going to the best law school for top law firm jobs (Northwestern) only means there's a 50-50 chance of getting that gig.

If one doesn't go to law school, they can't practice law. It's hard for some money-mongering T14-or-bust elitists to fathom that other incredibly competent and intelligent law students can a) take their law firm jobs and b) make the right decision to take out debt based on a reason other than guaranteed immediate 165k salaries (which is a myth at any law school)

This is just as ridiculously naive and misguided as the guy you're agreeing with.

Why do you say that? Stop responding with dismissive answers!

[vanwinkle]

Besides the bad metaphor I largely agree with what this person is saying....T14's can't stand that other tier 1 students take their law firm jobs...and furthermore they often forget that even going to the best law school for top law firm jobs (Northwestern) only means there's a 50-50 chance of getting that gig.

If one doesn't go to law school, they can't practice law. It's hard for some money-mongering T14-or-bust elitists to fathom that other incredibly competent and intelligent law students can a) take their law firm jobs and b) make the right decision to take out debt based on a reason other than guaranteed immediate 165k salaries (which is a myth at any law school)

This is just as ridiculously naive and misguided as the guy you're agreeing with.

Why do you say that? Stop responding with dismissive answers!

The guy you originally agreed with dismissed TLSers in general as "debt-averse". A lot of us are, but we're debt-averse because you may not get a salary to pay that money back when you graduate. And it's not that T14 students "can't stand that other Tier 1 students are taking their jobs", that's ridiculously stupid. No such thing is happening, so there's no reason for them to not stand it.

If you don't go to law school, you can't practice law. That's right. But going to law school doesn't necessarily mean you can. The economy and the legal hiring market is so fucked right now that there aren't enough jobs for even all the T14 kids, and that's just counting the ones that have decent grades. A huge chunk of T1 kids are getting left out to dry entirely, because the T14 folks are taking the jobs that were traditionally left to the T1s.

You're getting it backwards. The T14 kids are taking the other T1 kids' jobs, because there isn't all that much BigLaw or any other hiring going on right now. We're trying to warn people how bad it is so they don't take an even bigger risk than we have. I shouldn't bother being this explanatory, since you're being largely assumptive and dismissive of TLSers in your post. But I tried anyway, not that I believe it'll change anything.

[PDaddy]

This is a simple question with a simple answer. If you really want to be a working lawyer who actually earns a paycheck (assuming daddy isn't managing partner at a Wall Street firm), pay the money!

[Regionality]

Besides the bad metaphor I largely agree with what this person is saying....T14's can't stand that other tier 1 students take their law firm jobs...and furthermore they often forget that even going to the best law school for top law firm jobs (Northwestern) only means there's a 50-50 chance of getting that gig.

If one doesn't go to law school, they can't practice law. It's hard for some money-mongering T14-or-bust elitists to fathom that other incredibly competent and intelligent law students can a) take their law firm jobs and b) make the right decision to take out debt based on a reason other than guaranteed immediate 165k salaries (which is a myth at any law school)

This is just as ridiculously naive and misguided as the guy you're agreeing with.

Why do you say that? Stop responding with dismissive answers!

The guy you originally agreed with dismissed TLSers in general as "debt-averse". A lot of us are, but we're debt-averse because you may not get a salary to pay that money back when you graduate. And it's not that T14 students "can't stand that other Tier 1 students are taking their jobs", that's ridiculously stupid. No such thing is happening, so there's no reason for them to not stand it.

If you don't go to law school, you can't practice law. That's right. But going to law school doesn't necessarily mean you can. The economy and the legal hiring market is so fucked right now that there aren't enough jobs for even all the T14 kids, and that's just counting the ones that have decent grades. A huge chunk of T1 kids are getting left out to dry entirely, because the T14 folks are taking the jobs that were traditionally left to the T1s.

You're getting it backwards. The T14 kids are taking the other T1 kids' jobs, because there isn't all that much BigLaw or any other hiring going on right now. We're trying to warn people how bad it is so they don't take an even bigger risk than we have. I shouldn't bother being this explanatory, since you're being largely assumptive and dismissive of TLSers in your post. But I tried anyway, not that I believe it'll change anything.

Well thank you at least for substantiating! Where are you getting these stats from? A lot of the schools that I'm looking at (T35s) are coming out with their most recent class's numbers and they are all above 90/95% employment still with solid salary medians all around. Do you think these schools are cooking the books? How else does, as an example, a school claim to have a 98% response rate and a 95%+ employment rate cook the books? This is what I'm seeing at T35 schools across the board, with some exceptions.

[vanwinkle]

Well thank you at least for substantiating! Where are you getting these stats from? A lot of the schools that I'm looking at (T35s) are coming out with their most recent class's numbers and they are all above 90/95% employment still with solid salary medians all around. Do you think these schools are cooking the books? How else does, as an example, a school claim to have a 98% response rate and a 95%+ employment rate cook the books? This is what I'm seeing at T35 schools across the board, with some exceptions.

This is something hotly discussed on TLS, and I don't have full information on things like that. However, I can give you some suggestions of how this is possible based on things I've heard happening lately at a few schools.

1) People getting hired by BigLaw firms but deferred count as employed. Some BigLaw firms are a year latter cutting these people before they ever start their jobs, but since they were employed upon graduation, they get counted even though they never worked a single day for their employer.

2) Schools creating employment opportunities for recent graduates. This can include giving faculty members funds to hire them as research assistants for 6 months to a year, or some kind of grant/fellowship to do pro bono work for a PI organization. These are short-term employment opportunities after which the graduate is SOL, but it's long enough to mark someone as employed upon graduation.

3) "Solid salary medians" tend to be highly misleading. If you see a school saying it has a salary median of $90K, that might make you think of a bunch of $90K jobs being available, but that's not the case. What would typically happen is a bunch of people get hired for BigLaw at $160K, the rest get hired at $40-70K, and it ends up averaging out at about $80-90K. Again, people hired by BigLaw and deferred might have had their salaries reported in this, even if they never received it.

4) Some schools list "average starting salary for law firm employment" as $160K without indicating that such an average only applies to those who can get that employment, and it may only be a small portion of the class.

5) Salary medians are only based on what graduates report. Schools might be encouraging BigLaw hires to report their salaries back a lot more strongly than they do the rest of their graduates.

There's lots of possible ways to manipulate the numbers. I'm sure other people could name things too.

[eagles86]

Well many schools do manipulate salary data to some extent. Some forget that 50-75 K after school can become 120-200 K after a dozen years or so and most places in America that is more than enough to live a nice upper- middle class suburban life. Personally that is really all I want, along with a job I enjoy and that challenges me. A T50 or good Tier 2 school does provide a bit more career flexiblity than a tier 4. I have a political science degree and am skeptical what opportunities I would have without a JD. (I don't have undergrad debt so I guess I can take a little bit more of a risk than some here). Next year I'm going to UMiami and think those who say I should go to FIU with $$ instead are being a bit pessimistic.
Lastly, this has been a nationwide recession, almost every industry has been affected and once the economy rebounds things will get better in the legal field. The tough employment picture at the moment is not just for law grads, nor will it remain static.

[vanwinkle]

Lastly, this has been a nationwide recession, almost every industry has been affected and once the economy rebounds things will get better in the legal field. The tough employment picture at the moment is not just for law grads, nor will it remain static.

The problem is that even before the economic downturn the legal market was becoming extremely saturated. This was discussed in an earlier thread. In order to support all of the 45,000 lawyers per year graduated, there would need even in good times to be 100% turnover in less than 20 years, and this was escalating. Since many lawyers stay in 30+ years that means there aren't enough jobs to support everyone who's getting a degree, not by a long shot.

[eagles86]

Oh, I'm not denying that the ABA does an awful job in terms of stemming the over- supply of lawyers. Many Tier 3, 4s shouldn't be in business period. Dont forget that many baby boomers will retire in the coming years and that should open up some jobs. By risk I mean "educated risk", since UM dominates south fla, I would take it at sticker over FIU with $$ any day of the week since the network is strong and the school has a clearly defined region it rules. Schools like Brooklyn, Seton Hall are of course a worse risk because they inhabit very saturated markets. In other words, $150K of debt from similarly ranked schools may not be "equal".

[Doritos]

This is just as ridiculously naive and misguided as the guy you're agreeing with.

Why do you say that? Stop responding with dismissive answers!

The guy you originally agreed with dismissed TLSers in general as "debt-averse". A lot of us are, but we're debt-averse because you may not get a salary to pay that money back when you graduate. And it's not that T14 students "can't stand that other Tier 1 students are taking their jobs", that's ridiculously stupid. No such thing is happening, so there's no reason for them to not stand it.

If you don't go to law school, you can't practice law. That's right. But going to law school doesn't necessarily mean you can. The economy and the legal hiring market is so fucked right now that there aren't enough jobs for even all the T14 kids, and that's just counting the ones that have decent grades. A huge chunk of T1 kids are getting left out to dry entirely, because the T14 folks are taking the jobs that were traditionally left to the T1s.

You're getting it backwards. The T14 kids are taking the other T1 kids' jobs, because there isn't all that much BigLaw or any other hiring going on right now. We're trying to warn people how bad it is so they don't take an even bigger risk than we have. I shouldn't bother being this explanatory, since you're being largely assumptive and dismissive of TLSers in your post. But I tried anyway, not that I believe it'll change anything.

Well thank you at least for substantiating! Where are you getting these stats from? A lot of the schools that I'm looking at (T35s) are coming out with their most recent class's numbers and they are all above 90/95% employment still with solid salary medians all around. Do you think these schools are cooking the books? How else does, as an example, a school claim to have a 98% response rate and a 95%+ employment rate cook the books? This is what I'm seeing at T35 schools across the board, with some exceptions.

The most recent stats really don't help 0Ls that much. Class of 2009 (which is the latest as far as info goes) did their OGIs in summer of 2007 before the ITE monster came and ruined our lives. So they interviewed for their summer associateships in much rosier economic times. And when you look @ employment stats be sure to sit down and interpret what they are saying. Look @ how many are reporting data and which type of data (some schools will say they ahve a 98% report rate but when you look they have 98% reporting employment status and only 60% reporting salary data).

[GirlInTx]

The most recent stats really don't help 0Ls that much. Class of 2009 (which is the latest as far as info goes) did their OGIs in summer of 2007 before the ITE monster came and ruined our lives. So they interviewed for their summer associateships in much rosier economic times. And when you look @ employment stats be sure to sit down and interpret what they are saying. Look @ how many are reporting data and which type of data (some schools will say they ahve a 98% report rate but when you look they have 98% reporting employment status and only 60% reporting salary data).

I've been wondering how accurate a lot of these reports are. STCL claims a median salary of $80,000. Frankly, that sounds a bit high to me for a mediocre law school whose employment rate 9 months post grad is at 85% (I'm sure in all actuality it's even less than that).

[vanwinkle]

I've been wondering how accurate a lot of these reports are. STCL claims a median salary of $80,000. Frankly, that sounds a bit high to me for a mediocre law school whose employment rate 9 months post grad is at 85% (I'm sure in all actuality it's even less than that).

Keep in mind the median salary reported would only be based on those employed. They're not going to add in $0s for all the folks not employed.

[djgoldbe]

Well, not to disagree with what others have said about the doom and gloom, but it isn't like taking a full ride (and usually + stipend) is always a bad idea even if you can't find a job after graduating. Three years of education (which many people enjoy?) / meeting new people / not having to sit in a job you hate because you majored in poli sci or psych, along with having a JD - to some people is worth their time. To some it is not. But to the OP - just realize there is a good chance you will not get a job going to a TTT full ride.

[GirlInTx]

I've been wondering how accurate a lot of these reports are. STCL claims a median salary of $80,000. Frankly, that sounds a bit high to me for a mediocre law school whose employment rate 9 months post grad is at 85% (I'm sure in all actuality it's even less than that).

Keep in mind the median salary reported would only be based on those employed. They're not going to add in $0s for all the folks not employed.

Well, strictly among those who are employed, I'm thinking $80k is a stretch. A friend of mine whose currently at STCL was showing me the school's career listings. It was mostly small firms only offering STCL graduates about $45k, sadly. I even saw one for $25k which was pathetic. I'm not sure how you'd manage to pay off private law school loans and have a diet that isn't limited specifically to Ramen noodles with that salary.

[Stringer Bell]

This thread is bizarre.

I'm tempted not to post ITT, but I need to point out that I think that if STCL gives out full tuition scholarships, they are pretty few and far between and I doubt any would go to a splitter. Mega-splitters have a tougher time getting a scholarship that only 5 people or so might get because they are still bringing down one median. Honestly, the only Texas school that I think might pony up full tuition for a mega-splitter is Baylor and it sounds like that might not be the best fit for your lifestyle. Get the 175+, come back here and you will get some good advice on places to apply.

[GirlInTx]

This thread is bizarre.

I'm tempted not to post ITT, but I need to point out that I think that if STCL gives out full tuition scholarships, they are pretty few and far between and I doubt any would go to a splitter. Mega-splitters have a tougher time getting a scholarship that only 5 people or so might get because they are still bringing down one median. Honestly, the only Texas school that I think might pony up full tuition for a mega-splitter is Baylor and it sounds like that might not be the best fit for your lifestyle. Get the 175+, come back here and you will get some good advice on places to apply.

I'm not interested in attending STCL, they're stingy with $ for whatever reason. They just came up in discussion because they're a reasonably respected TTTT if you want to work in Houston. I'm not so sure about Baylor and splitters. Although, I have no real interest in attending Baylor. My only choices in Texas would be UT (and there's no way that's going to happen) and U of H. I was thinking if I applied to some of the TTTT schools in FL, that my score might get me free ride, or close to it, but what I'm really trying to gather from this thread is if people think the 6 figures of student loan debt will actually ring in job prospects that are worth passing up a free education at a TTTT.

[Na_Swatch]

lol at the people who still believe in the statistics provided by the schools themselves...
makes me lose hope about the truth every really getting out to the majority when even people who have found this website still don't understand:

1) It is very very easy to lie or obfuscate the truth with statistics

2) Law schools do this to the maximum

Hopefully its just cause these people have just found TLS (as i'm guessing by their post count)

[D. H2Oman]

This is a simple question with a simple answer. If you really want to be a working lawyer who actually earns a paycheck (assuming daddy isn't managing partner at a Wall Street firm), pay the money!

Agree with this girl. She is smart.

[Grizz]

since UM dominates south fla, I would take it at sticker over FIU with $$ any day of the week since the network is strong and the school has a clearly defined region it rules. Schools like Brooklyn, Seton Hall are of course a worse risk because they inhabit very saturated markets.

Dominates? UM = UF in south FL, and FL is an incredibly saturated market. HTH.

[yeff]

This thread is too long for being entirely hypothetical.

OP, you've said you don't want to wait, but putting at least a little distance between your bad grades and your application is the best plan, since your best bet is to get that 177+ and ED to Northwestern.