Washington and Lee Vs. Illinois Forum

[fish35]

Hello. I have been a reader of the TLS for a long time however never posted. I just signed up because I need help making my final decision. I am in the final stages of choosing law schools and need help.

I do not have a preference for living situations during or after law school. I am very portable and the town where my school is located has no effect on my decision.

My main concerns are: job opportunities and value of education.

I want to specialize my education in corporate law; more specifically mergers and acquisitions and investments and securities. From what I understand both schools are about equal on these fronts.

I don't want this post to be too long so here are my questions:

1). Which school produces better opportunities for corporate law?
2). I noticed that the peer assessment for UIUC is higher whereas the judge/lawyer assessment is higher for W&L, what does this mean regarding the value of the education from both institutions?
3). Do you think that the recent changes in both schools rankings reflect a long term trend (i.e. W&L staying/dropping into the 30's or lower and UIUC in the mid-low 20's)?
4). Which would you go to?
5). If I am not happy with my decision and I do well as a 1L, which has better opportunity to transfer out of (this is a last resort, trust me I do not plan on transferring but I like to know my options)?

Please help!!!

[dispatch]

cost?

[fish35]

cost?

No schollys'. Cost will be about the same.

[quadsixm]

East Coast/South or Midwest?

[fish35]

East Coast/South or Midwest?

No living preference. I really don't care where I live. No ties to an area.

[dispatch]

Have you visited either? W&L is a tiny (class size < 150) school near the mountains. Is that somewhere you'd be comfortable for 3 years? I don't think either are going to be placing a ton of people into corporate (biglaw) gigs, but Illinois will give you a better shot (but still only around 20ish%).

[FuManChusco]

1.) Forget about transferring. This should have zero impact on your decision.

2.) Here is the NLJ 250 Chart. It lists the percentage of graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms. Pretty sure this is from 2009. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

As you can see, Illinois is #25 with 26.7% of their graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms.

W&L is at #36 with 19.3% being hired.

3.) This is probably because Illinois does well in Chicago.

4.) ITE you probably shouldn't bank on biglaw from either of these schools. It very well could happen, but sticker is a high price to pay for the chance. What are your numbers?

5.) I voted Illinois

6.) IBDR (In Before Derrick Rose)

[fish35]

Have you visited either? W&L is a tiny (class size < 150) school near the mountains. Is that somewhere you'd be comfortable for 3 years? I don't think either are going to be placing a ton of people into corporate (biglaw) gigs, but Illinois will give you a better shot (but still only around 20ish%).

I have not visited either. I have read as much as I could from others who have visited and google a lot. I would be fine living in lexington.

[GordonBombay]

1.) Forget about transferring. This should have zero impact on your decision.

2.) Here is the NLJ 250 Chart. It lists the percentage of graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms. Pretty sure this is from 2009. http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

As you can see, Illinois is #25 with 26.7% of their graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms.

W&L is at #36 with 19.3% being hired.

3.) This is probably because Illinois does well in Chicago.

4.) ITE you probably shouldn't bank on biglaw from either of these schools. It very well could happen, but sticker is a high price to pay for the chance. What are your numbers?

5.) I voted Illinois

6.) IBDR (In Before Derrick Rose)

This PDF isn't new and has 2008 in the file name, not 2009

[fish35]

1.) Forget about transferring. This should have zero impact on your decision.
2.) Here is the NLJ 250 Chart. It lists the percentage of graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms. Pretty sure this is from 2009. http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf
As you can see, Illinois is #25 with 26.7% of their graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms.
W&L is at #36 with 19.3% being hired.
3.) This is probably because Illinois does well in Chicago.
4.) ITE you probably shouldn't bank on biglaw from either of these schools. It very well could happen, but sticker is a high price to pay for the chance. What are your numbers?
5.) I voted Illinois
6.) IBDR (In Before Derrick Rose)

Thank you for the reply.
1) I really don't plan on transferring but just put that question in out of curiosity.
2). Both percentages are about what I thought they would be.
3). What about DC for W&L?
4). GPA 3.91 LSAT 165.
5). Thanks.
6). Derrick Rose is the man. I'm a heat fan but wanted to see Wade go to the Bulls so him and Rose can win a championship.......

[creamedcats]

1) I don't know, but a Martindale search of grads in the last five years shows fairly similar percentages of recent grads doing corporate law, usually in their local/nearby markets (Virginia/DC, Chicago) - doubt there's a big difference, I'd pick the place you like better and factor that in instead.
2) It means a little but remember, very few people actually fill those surveys out - peer assessment is faculty prestige, judge/lawyer is 'do they produce good lawyers' rating
3) Not sure
4) W&L purely because I prefer that area to Chicago and would be interested in a clerkship (23% clerkship! wow) - I sometimes regret not applying there, but I also don't necessarily like the tiny student body/small alumni network.
5) I don't know and would argue that this is the last factor you should consider. You MUST plan as if you are not going to transfer, otherwise your thinking will be warped. The main differences here are going to be location/atmosphere and regional placement. Also, Illinois is cheaper and (if you care) slightly higher ranked.

Also you're paying sticker and 'planning' to work in corporate law - this is risky.

If you can visit, you should do so.

[creamedcats]

4). GPA 3.91 LSAT 165.

No scholarship? At all? No way. Don't accept without money. You're summa cum laude, dude. I have similar numbers, GPA not as high, and I got $$ from schools ranked near these and $$$$ from upper T2. I don't get why you aren't getting some money. LSN suggests you should get up to 30k/year from W&L.

[fish35]

4). GPA 3.91 LSAT 165.

No scholarship? At all? No way. Don't accept without money. You're summa cum laude, dude. I have similar numbers, GPA not as high, and I got $$ from schools ranked near these and $$$$ from upper T2. I don't get why you aren't getting some money. LSN suggests you should get up to 30k/year from W&L.

Maybe late applications? I got offers from other schools but I really didn't like their programs. How can I get money if I wasn't offered any?

[dispatch]

3.91?? I'm shocked neither school offered you money. Did you apply late? If you're not already locked into going to school next year, you may want to consider retaking/reapplying next year. Maybe you could try and negotiate some money. This guy has your exact numbers http://lawschoolnumbers.com/86revolt/jd and got 45k from illinois. Not to mention acceptances from Berkley, Cornell and money at Vandy... You wouldn't even need to retake the LSAT.

[kommatas]

4). GPA 3.91 LSAT 165.

No scholarship? At all? No way. Don't accept without money. You're summa cum laude, dude. I have similar numbers, GPA not as high, and I got $$ from schools ranked near these and $$$$ from upper T2. I don't get why you aren't getting some money. LSN suggests you should get up to 30k/year from W&L.

Maybe late applications? I got offers from other schools but I really didn't like their programs. How can I get money if I wasn't offered any?

I am actually choosing between both of these schools too. I have very similar numbers GPA3.9 and LSAT 164. UIUC offered $10,000 and W&L $5,500. Maybe you can email them and negotiate money.

I have to pay attention to this post. I am leaning towards W&L because I feel it will rebound from its slide and has had a long history of producing above average graduates.

[jmhendri]

I was looking at pretty much the same decision, although I'm still only on the WL at UIUC. You should have visited... that's what made up my mind not to write a LOCI at UIUC. I got money from W&L and fell in love with the facilities, the town, and people.

[fish35]

3.91?? I'm shocked neither school offered you money. Did you apply late? If you're not already locked into going to school next year, you may want to consider retaking/reapplying next year. Maybe you could try and negotiate some money. This guy has your exact numbers http://lawschoolnumbers.com/86revolt/jd and got 45k from illinois. Not to mention acceptances from Berkley, Cornell and money at Vandy... You wouldn't even need to retake the LSAT.

I applied to Berkley & Cornell = rejections. My apps were late. I will try to negotiate money, but how can I so late in the cycle?

[creamedcats]

3.91?? I'm shocked neither school offered you money. Did you apply late? If you're not already locked into going to school next year, you may want to consider retaking/reapplying next year. Maybe you could try and negotiate some money. This guy has your exact numbers http://lawschoolnumbers.com/86revolt/jd and got 45k from illinois. Not to mention acceptances from Berkley, Cornell and money at Vandy... You wouldn't even need to retake the LSAT.

I absolutely agree. You said you're concerned about value. No scholarship at these two means bad, bad, value. You can either:

A) Use other scholarship offers as leverage in negotiating
B) Reapply early next year - as in five months from now. If you have a good job, I'd do this. Hell, I'd retake the LSAT. 3.91 is a serious asset.

I did not apply early this year and I got money because I was lucky. It makes a big difference.

[fish35]

I was looking at pretty much the same decision, although I'm still only on the WL at UIUC. You should have visited... that's what made up my mind not to write a LOCR at UIUC. I got money from W&L and fell in love with the facilities, the town, and people.

I wish I could visit, but I have no vacations at work and its pretty expensive for me to travel to both, I tried to figure it out and it will be at least $800 or more. If you don't mind me asking, how much money did W&L give you, I saw your numbers on your profile and am curious?

[DerrickRose]

Wow, I have a bat signal now. I'm flattered.

I'll begin with one little bit of trolling: In terms of the fun you will have at law school, Illinois is T14 and W&L is TTTT. Illinois Law is a blast and "tiny liberal arts college in the middle of nowhere" does not sound like good times.

Also, unless you (a) want to work in Virginia or (b) hate Chicago for some reason, Illinois is clearly the better school.

But I must say that with a 165/3.91 I would think you could do better than sticker at Illinois. Its hardly easy to get Biglaw from here, and at sticker cost failure to get Biglaw will put you in a lot of debt trouble. As much as I love it, it isn't worth 200k.

If you applied late, I would recommend reapplying. If you didn't then I'd ask if you have any other offers.

[dispatch]

It can't hurt to ask. If I were in your shoes though, I'd apply again on September 1 of this year. The t14 will give you much more freedom, not to mention a solid shot at getting corporate law.

3.91?? I'm shocked neither school offered you money. Did you apply late? If you're not already locked into going to school next year, you may want to consider retaking/reapplying next year. Maybe you could try and negotiate some money. This guy has your exact numbers http://lawschoolnumbers.com/86revolt/jd and got 45k from illinois. Not to mention acceptances from Berkley, Cornell and money at Vandy... You wouldn't even need to retake the LSAT.

I applied to Berkley & Cornell = rejections. My apps were late. I will try to negotiate money, but how can I so late in the cycle?

[fish35]

3.91?? I'm shocked neither school offered you money. Did you apply late? If you're not already locked into going to school next year, you may want to consider retaking/reapplying next year. Maybe you could try and negotiate some money. This guy has your exact numbers http://lawschoolnumbers.com/86revolt/jd and got 45k from illinois. Not to mention acceptances from Berkley, Cornell and money at Vandy... You wouldn't even need to retake the LSAT.

I absolutely agree. You said you're concerned about value. No scholarship at these two means bad, bad, value. You can either:

A) Use other scholarship offers as leverage in negotiating
B) Reapply early next year - as in five months from now. If you have a good job, I'd do this. Hell, I'd retake the LSAT. 3.91 is a serious asset.

I did not apply early this year and I got money because I was lucky. It makes a big difference.

I don't have a good job and can't wait to leave it. I wish I had the patience to wait another year, but I don't. I am not worried about the money, I am hopeful that I can continue doing well in Law School and remain in the top 10% of my class and hopefully get a decent job.

[jmhendri]

I was looking at pretty much the same decision, although I'm still only on the WL at UIUC. You should have visited... that's what made up my mind not to write a LOCR at UIUC. I got money from W&L and fell in love with the facilities, the town, and people.

I wish I could visit, but I have no vacations at work and its pretty expensive for me to travel to both, I tried to figure it out and it will be at least $800 or more. If you don't mind me asking, how much money did W&L give you, I saw your numbers on your profile and am curious?

15,000$/year maintaining a 3.00 gpa, I was surprised too.

W&L offered a very hearty stipend to go to ASW. I only ended up paying 80$. Also they have a strong relationship to DC law and the student body, because of it's small size, seemed rediculously close. I went during Dean's Cup and the everyone I met was dead drunk or near it. I got the feeling there's pleanty of good times to be had there...

[fish35]

Can I use the results from Law School Numbers as a negotiating tool?

I rejected a full scholarship from Hofstra. But other than that, no offers.. wait-lists and rejections.

My problem was that I aimed too high T20 and lower, with the exception of UF, UIUC, W&L, Hofstra, and UM. But I do not like UM, Hofstra or UF.

[fish35]

I was looking at pretty much the same decision, although I'm still only on the WL at UIUC. You should have visited... that's what made up my mind not to write a LOCR at UIUC. I got money from W&L and fell in love with the facilities, the town, and people.

I wish I could visit, but I have no vacations at work and its pretty expensive for me to travel to both, I tried to figure it out and it will be at least $800 or more. If you don't mind me asking, how much money did W&L give you, I saw your numbers on your profile and am curious?

15,000$/year maintaining a 3.00 gpa, I was surprised too.

W&L offered a very hearty stipend to go to ASW. I only ended up paying 80$. Also they have a strong relationship to DC law and the student body, because of it's small size, seemed rediculously close. I went during Dean's Cup and the everyone I met was dead drunk or near it. I got the feeling there's pleanty of good times to be had there...

I missed the ASW, I thought there would be one in mid-april. I never put the time into looking at it. I know that I messed up on that.