Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools? Forum

[jayn3]

Why wouldn't the dominant attitude be pro T14 and pro USNWR? People tend to be pro having jobs.

.......
i read this as "rankings are everything and i'll do whatever USNWR tells me to."



oh, and as to

About prep courses and disadvantages...isnt that life? lol

...just because people accept systematic disadvantage doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.

sorry, i'll stop being a whiny little soc major now.

[jayn3]

I'd go Boalt straight up to be honest. I think TLS would generally agree.

NU $$ vs. Chic is tougher. It'd really depend on where one was at that point in time...for instance, married with kids, I'd say NU for sure to avoid to debt burden. But just starting out and going for biglaw or bust...Chi all the way, unless one was opposed to the debt or had a better feeling at NU. TLS would likely be split, leaning slightly towards Chi as putting themselves in a lifestyle where NU becomes advantageous is tough as a 23-24 year old.

k, NU/chi makes sense. what's your reasoning for boalt?

[Kilpatrick]

Why wouldn't the dominant attitude be pro T14 and pro USNWR? People tend to be pro having jobs.

.......
i read this as "rankings are everything and i'll do whatever USNWR tells me to."

I read this as you're incredibly naive. You think people should be anti T14? I mean, if you're talking about the idea of there being only 14 good law schools then yeah I agree it's a silly distinction. But the rankings reflect differences in job prospects. Right now I'm headed for a school in the top 25 and am waitlisted at a T14. And as much as I love the school I've already put down a deposit for, if the T14 school comes calling - I'm going. Not because a magazine told me to. Because I want a job after I graduate. And in the legal profession, especially in the state it is in right now, a higher ranked school means a better chance at me actually becoming a lawyer.

[jayn3]

I read this as you're incredibly naive. You think people should be anti T14? I mean, if you're talking about the idea of there being only 14 good law schools then yeah I agree it's a silly distinction. But the rankings reflect differences in job prospects. Right now I'm headed for a school in the top 25 and am waitlisted at a T14. And as much as I love the school I've already put down a deposit for, if the T14 school comes calling - I'm going. Not because a magazine told me to. Because I want a job after I graduate. And in the legal profession, especially in the state it is in right now, a higher ranked school means a better chance at me actually becoming a lawyer.

allow me to quote myself....

after a certain point, life success comes down to your personal ability to succeed in school and impress prospective employers. sure, HYS will get you further than a T3/T4 school on name alone. but if you're good enough to make it into a top 30 or so school, the bottom line is that it's on your shoulders to make your own damn luck.

i'm not anti-t14, and don't necessarily think people should be. what bothers me is that the ratings can be fairly arbitrary, and take in a lot of factors that may matter to some people more than others. yes, there are differences in job prospects, but rankings can be overcome by good academics and a good interview. and for people who want to stay local, networking can make up for a lot.

BUT i'm also an 0L talking out of my ass, so take that as seriously as you want.

[Tofu]

i'm not anti-t14, and don't necessarily think people should be. what bothers me is that the ratings can be fairly arbitrary, and take in a lot of factors that may matter to some people more than others. yes, there are differences in job prospects, but rankings can be overcome by good academics and a good interview. and for people who want to stay local, networking can make up for a lot.

BUT i'm also an 0L talking out of my ass, so take that as seriously as you want.

it's still pretty hard, if not impossible, to predict where you're going to end up rank-wise in the 1L year, though lots of people usually have "good academics"

also, if you want prestigious stuff (art. 3 clerkships, top firms, etc.), "good academics" and interviewing skills might not make up for the difference in rank/job prospects

depends on one's career goals, i guess!

[DoubleChecks]

About prep courses and disadvantages...isnt that life? lol

...just because people accept systematic disadvantage doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed.

sorry, i'll stop being a whiny little soc major now.

hm? oh i also meant just life in general not being fair. i dont think thats changing any time soon (or should). not everyone can be a winner lol.

[Kilpatrick]

Yeah, of course there are going to be success stories of people at lower ranked schools who worked hard. Just like there are stories of failures who went to top schools. But if you want the best chances to be one of the success stories you should go to the best school you can.

I agree that there are some arbitrary elements to the rankings. And if we are talking about one or two spots between schools, then the differences may be negligible. But let's not forget this is a thread about a guy who wanted to go to Touro. The difference in job prospects between that school and where he could possibly get in given his numbers/softs is HUGE. The vast majority of people on this site are not saying T14 or bust. But they are trying to keep poor misguided souls like the OP from potentially making huge mistakes in choosing a law school.

[Fark-o-vision]

I just wanted to let everyone know that this wasn't me.

[fwaam]

Wait a minute, let's look at this.

1. Touro has an attrition rate of about 35%, so all the numbers you have there are out of only 65% of the people that decide to go there.

Fair enough. But it depends on whether or not the school is flunking these kids out, or the students are deciding to leave because they realized that law/law school isn't for them. I don't think it's necessarily an awful thing to let in some people whose numbers are poor, and let them see if they can hack it. All schools used to do that before transferring the competitiveness to the admissions process. Sure, some people wind up $45,000 in debt with nothing, but as long as they know going in that their numbers are poor and that they might not make it, fine.

2. In a fun bit of reading comprehension, they only give the numbers for New York State, meaning the median salary number are almost certainly lower wherever else Touro students might be employed, namely New Jersey.

That quote came from TLS; the profiles are not always written with a high degree of professionalism. I'm not sure we're really supposed to take away from it that only NY salaries are counted; even if they are, 88% are in fact working in NY. It's not like they took 5% of the class and extrapolated from that.

3. You're assumption of an 100% response rate is unfounded. Some schools have deplorably low response rates, but lets give Touro the benefit of the doubt and say that there is only 10% unemployed/non-legal non-respondents.

I didn't assume that at all. I assumed that when TLS says, "We know 77% to be employed," TLS means, "We've added together the unemployed and the non-responders, and that comes out to 23% of the class."

4. I don't have the numbers at hand but school like Touro usually have 30 or so % of the class in non-legal jobs. We don't know whether these are higher or lower salaries, and we don't know whether the JD was outcome determinative in getting the job, but we do know they aren't "lawyers"

Could be true. If it is, I wonder why TLS didn't mention it in the profile of this school. If a large number of grads were in "business" I'd expect them to point it out. But maybe Touro is flat-out lying, or classifying 60% of the class as "private sector," not "law firms." I don't know. Their current website is extremely unhelpful on this matter.

5. Those numbers are from 2006, the absolute peak of the legal hiring boom.

Indisputable.

Overall, I'm sure kids graduating from Touro in May are in trouble. But there's no reason to believe it's only ever had a rate of 5% of grads working as lawyers, as people around here tend to claim. If someone has a scholarship, a realistic idea of what they're getting into, and no better options, it's not necessarily an awful choice. FWIW, the Touro grad I know is doing well; his theory of getting jobs is that it's all about who you know and how much they like you. (He's a charismatic guy and has had no trouble getting jobs. But we aren't all charismatic, or looking for work in small markets, either.) In my small market, I think small firms would hire someone they liked who'd gone to Touro over a T14 grad with equivalent grades, whom they didn't like, any day.

[seancarpe]

The whole point of law school is to get a job as a lawyer. Law school is an expensive endeavor, costing upwards of 150k and over 200k in debt for many. It takes a well-paying job to make this money/effort/time spent to be worth it. In general T3/T4 schools do not offer a good return on this investment.

All bs aside, some people do become lawyers to help people/communities/etc--not to just pile up money. That said, it's usually the top tier schools that cost 150k-200k in debt. You'd be hard pressed to find a top tier school with an annual tuition fee of ~$8k, like the public 3rd/4th universities charge. They may not come with prestige, but they won't come with the debt either, and any lionel hutz out there can bag 2/3 clients a month and make a comfortable living without the stress of $200k worth of debt.

to answer the original question posed by gijoe--i think t3/t4 schools are bashed because there are a lot of arrogant people who have (most likely) their parents pay out their ass for a good school name so little johnny can land a job that pays him enough to never bother the parents for money again, and hopefully inherit his own debt.

[NU_Jet55]

All bs aside, some people do become lawyers to help people/communities/etc--not to just pile up money.

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[Grizz]

The whole point of law school is to get a job as a lawyer. Law school is an expensive endeavor, costing upwards of 150k and over 200k in debt for many. It takes a well-paying job to make this money/effort/time spent to be worth it. In general T3/T4 schools do not offer a good return on this investment.

All bs aside, some people do become lawyers to help people/communities/etc--not to just pile up money. That said, it's usually the top tier schools that cost 150k-200k in debt. You'd be hard pressed to find a top tier school with an annual tuition fee of ~$8k, like the public 3rd/4th universities charge. They may not come with prestige, but they won't come with the debt either, and any lionel hutz out there can bag 2/3 clients a month and make a comfortable living without the stress of $200k worth of debt.

to answer the original question posed by gijoe--i think t3/t4 schools are bashed because there are a lot of arrogant people who have (most likely) their parents pay out their ass for a good school name so little johnny can land a job that pays him enough to never bother the parents for money again, and hopefully inherit his own debt.

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Why did you bump this month-old thread to post this tripe?

[bk1]

The whole point of law school is to get a job as a lawyer. Law school is an expensive endeavor, costing upwards of 150k and over 200k in debt for many. It takes a well-paying job to make this money/effort/time spent to be worth it. In general T3/T4 schools do not offer a good return on this investment.

All bs aside, some people do become lawyers to help people/communities/etc--not to just pile up money. That said, it's usually the top tier schools that cost 150k-200k in debt. You'd be hard pressed to find a top tier school with an annual tuition fee of ~$8k, like the public 3rd/4th universities charge. They may not come with prestige, but they won't come with the debt either, and any lionel hutz out there can bag 2/3 clients a month and make a comfortable living without the stress of $200k worth of debt.

to answer the original question posed by gijoe--i think t3/t4 schools are bashed because there are a lot of arrogant people who have (most likely) their parents pay out their ass for a good school name so little johnny can land a job that pays him enough to never bother the parents for money again, and hopefully inherit his own debt.

I really want to say you are trolling but I'm not 100% convinced of that.

[Moxie]

Hmmm, I'm not sure the timing of this works out. You said Iraq and Afghanistan, so it couldn't be Desert Storm, but I doubt the NYPD let you take time off to serve in the army. Also, what is an NYPD cop doing making a TLS account at three in the morning? If you are this bad at flaming, maybe Touro is the right choice?

This has to be the most retard comment i have ever read on here.

Apologies in advance if you are mentally challenged.

+1. To the OP - I respect you for your service.
But T3 & T4 schools are widely ridiculed on these boards because of their diminished job prospects, despite heavy financial cost. Furthermore, this site is directed towards "Top law schools", so many of the people on this sitr will settle for nothing below the elite few schools at the top of the rankings.

Furthermore, this whole thread has turned into a waste of time.

EDIT - Quoting fail.

[flyingpanda]

The whole point of law school is to get a job as a lawyer. Law school is an expensive endeavor, costing upwards of 150k and over 200k in debt for many. It takes a well-paying job to make this money/effort/time spent to be worth it. In general T3/T4 schools do not offer a good return on this investment.

All bs aside, some people do become lawyers to help people/communities/etc--not to just pile up money. That said, it's usually the top tier schools that cost 150k-200k in debt. You'd be hard pressed to find a top tier school with an annual tuition fee of ~$8k, like the public 3rd/4th universities charge. They may not come with prestige, but they won't come with the debt either, and any lionel hutz out there can bag 2/3 clients a month and make a comfortable living without the stress of $200k worth of debt.

to answer the original question posed by gijoe--i think t3/t4 schools are bashed because there are a lot of arrogant people who have (most likely) their parents pay out their ass for a good school name so little johnny can land a job that pays him enough to never bother the parents for money again, and hopefully inherit his own debt.

I don't know who this "azn" guy is... but he sounds like a smart cookie.

[Kilpatrick]

The whole point of law school is to get a job as a lawyer. Law school is an expensive endeavor, costing upwards of 150k and over 200k in debt for many. It takes a well-paying job to make this money/effort/time spent to be worth it. In general T3/T4 schools do not offer a good return on this investment.

All bs aside, some people do become lawyers to help people/communities/etc--not to just pile up money. That said, it's usually the top tier schools that cost 150k-200k in debt. You'd be hard pressed to find a top tier school with an annual tuition fee of ~$8k, like the public 3rd/4th universities charge. They may not come with prestige, but they won't come with the debt either, and any lionel hutz out there can bag 2/3 clients a month and make a comfortable living without the stress of $200k worth of debt.

to answer the original question posed by gijoe--i think t3/t4 schools are bashed because there are a lot of arrogant people who have (most likely) their parents pay out their ass for a good school name so little johnny can land a job that pays him enough to never bother the parents for money again, and hopefully inherit his own debt.

Way to bump a dead thread with completely incorrect information.

It's hard to help people and communities without a job. You are one of the people who have bought into the retarded myth that as long as you don't want BigLaw you will be just fine. PI jobs are incredibly competitive and hard to get right now too. Also most T3/T4 schools charge just as much tuition as T1 schools. Touro costs nearly $40,000 a year. Your idea that T3/T4 graduates don't take on debt is completely wrong. That's why these schools are bashed.

[okay734]

There are many fine attorneys who have graduated from lower tier law schools. However, a combination of market realities, cost of law school and the glut of law grads (nearly 45,000 annually) make these schools a risky proposition for most people. Many of these schools release employment/salary statistics for recent grads. They are not independently audited, and therefore highly suspect. Afterall, it is in the interest of these schools to encourage people to enroll, especially if they are for profit. Why shouldn't they be scrutinized.

If you choose to attend a lower tier school, do your homework before you go. Research law firms that hire from that school, the school's reputation locally, statewide and nationally, and whether or not you can secure employment sufficient to pay off your loans.