Best chance at Biglaw Forum

[concerned1]

Location is not all that important to me. What is important is paying off student loans as fast as possible. My choices are Fordham, Emory, GW, and WashU. Which one will best enable me to get a Biglaw job in each respective market. I think the information most important to this question is what type of placement is there at these schools for graduates not in the top 10% which is more likely where i will find myself.

[DerrickRose]

If you want to gamble on the economic recovery, specifically in New York: Fordham
If you want to consider all the schools based on their current NLJ250 placement power: GW
If you want a possible backstop of secondary-market, not-quite-biglaw: Emory
If you want the most widely spread national chances: WUSTL
If you only want BigLaw and you would be unhappy with anything else, Retake/Reapply

[JCougar]

It's all about the same. If you're not top 35% or so at any of those schools and you're paying sticker, you're pretty much up shit creek without a paddle. It may be worse ITE. If you don't plan on being in that top third or so, pick the one in the city you'd most like to work. GW probably has slightly better placement than the others, but cost of living in DC is $$$$$ (you could be looking at an extra $15-20K in loans from GW just for living expenses over three years; same thing goes for Fordham).

[concerned1]

So far there are great replies. What do you mean by secondary market not-quite-biglaw???

[DerrickRose]

So far there are great replies. What do you mean by secondary market not-quite-biglaw???

Well, you go to Birmingham, AL or Charleston, SC or Charlotte, NC or whatever, you're going to find a good handful of firms that recruit at Emory that have starting salaries around 80-100k. This isn't BigLaw per se, but its still a heck of a job. Now, there aren't a lot of these, but Emory being near quite a few mid-size cities helps.

At Fordham it's super-massive or bust.

[concerned1]

wow. I did not know that about Fordham. So tell me, what about GW and WUSTL, are these also biglaw or bust?

[DerrickRose]

wow. I did not know that about Fordham. So tell me, what about GW and WUSTL, are these also biglaw or bust?

Well, its probably excessive to say "or bust". But generally speaking, proximity to medium-sized American cities is where you're going to look for so-called "Midlaw"

Look in the NALP Directory if you want specific information rather than just my blathering.

[JCougar]

wow. I did not know that about Fordham. So tell me, what about GW and WUSTL, are these also biglaw or bust?

Everything's more or less biglaw or bust when you're talking about paying full tuition at law school today. Midlaw jobs make up maybe ~5% of the class at most. There's plenty of stuff out there worth doing other than biglaw, but nothing that will pay back your massive school loans. Tuition has skyrocketed, biglaw salaries have skyrocketed, but for ~[strike]75[/strike]85% of law school graduates who don't get biglaw (more like [strike]85[/strike]90% ITE), starting salaries have largely remained flat.

Did you get any scholarships at all from the above schools?

[270910]

wow. I did not know that about Fordham. So tell me, what about GW and WUSTL, are these also biglaw or bust?

Everything's more or less biglaw or bust when you're talking about paying full tuition at law school today. Midlaw jobs make up maybe ~5% of the class at most. There's plenty of stuff out there worth doing other than biglaw, but nothing that will pay back your massive school loans. Tuition has skyrocketed, biglaw salaries have skyrocketed, but for ~75% of law school graduates who don't get biglaw (more like 85% ITE), starting salaries have largely remained flat.

Did you get any scholarships at all from the above schools?

Fact: just over 10% of grads got biglaw in the boom days

[JCougar]

wow. I did not know that about Fordham. So tell me, what about GW and WUSTL, are these also biglaw or bust?

Everything's more or less biglaw or bust when you're talking about paying full tuition at law school today. Midlaw jobs make up maybe ~5% of the class at most. There's plenty of stuff out there worth doing other than biglaw, but nothing that will pay back your massive school loans. Tuition has skyrocketed, biglaw salaries have skyrocketed, but for ~75% of law school graduates who don't get biglaw (more like 85% ITE), starting salaries have largely remained flat.

Did you get any scholarships at all from the above schools?

Fact: just over 10% of grads got biglaw in the boom days

Yes, you are right, I was too generous.

[concerned1]

no scholarships at any of these pier schools. Maybe it would be wiser to take scholly at state schools then? i.e. rutgers.

[JCougar]

no scholarships at any of these pier schools. Maybe it would be wiser to take scholly at state schools then? i.e. rutgers.

FWIW, I wouldn't pay sticker anywhere below the T14, except for maybe the 15-18 schools if I was sure I wanted to practice in that region (UCLA, USC for LA, Texas, Vanderbilt for the South).

[OperaSoprano]

wow. I did not know that about Fordham. So tell me, what about GW and WUSTL, are these also biglaw or bust?

Everything's more or less biglaw or bust when you're talking about paying full tuition at law school today. Midlaw jobs make up maybe ~5% of the class at most. There's plenty of stuff out there worth doing other than biglaw, but nothing that will pay back your massive school loans. Tuition has skyrocketed, biglaw salaries have skyrocketed, but for ~75% of law school graduates who don't get biglaw (more like 85% ITE), starting salaries have largely remained flat.

Did you get any scholarships at all from the above schools?

Fact: just over 10% of grads got biglaw in the boom days

Disco, is this an all inclusive average? I'm not certain the ratio of market paying jobs to total law school graduates in the 2006-2008 period, but that certainly is plausible, given the number of schools that only sent a tiny handful of grads into biglaw during the boom.

And re: Fordham: Many grads work in mid sized to smaller firms in New Jersey and elsewhere in the tri-state area. Some of these firms pay better than others, but outside of biglaw, most people will rely on IBR to service their loans. Despite the cost, I am happy with my choice. I love the school and I've had many opportunities here.

[Generic20101L]

So far there are great replies. What do you mean by secondary market not-quite-biglaw???

Well, you go to Birmingham, AL or Charleston, SC or Charlotte, NC or whatever, you're going to find a good handful of firms that recruit at Emory that have starting salaries around 80-100k. This isn't BigLaw per se, but its still a heck of a job. Now, there aren't a lot of these, but Emory being near quite a few mid-size cities helps.

At Fordham it's super-massive or bust.

There are firms in Birmingham that pay more than 80-100k.

[270910]

Disco, is this an all inclusive average? I'm not certain the ratio of market paying jobs to total law school graduates in the 2006-2008 period, but that certainly is plausible, given the number of schools that only sent a tiny handful of grads into biglaw during the boom.

Yup. There are something like ~5K 6 figure NLJ 250 jobs available to new grads, if I remember the math correctly (with roughly 1/2 of those going to T14 students).

[OperaSoprano]

Disco, is this an all inclusive average? I'm not certain the ratio of market paying jobs to total law school graduates in the 2006-2008 period, but that certainly is plausible, given the number of schools that only sent a tiny handful of grads into biglaw during the boom.

Yup. There are something like ~5K 6 figure NLJ 250 jobs available to new grads, if I remember the math correctly (with roughly 1/2 of those going to T14 students).

I thought so. We hear rumors about the proportion in which the reduction has been carried out. I don't know if I even want to see aggregate data from the class of 2011. CLS made theirs available, and that was depressing enough! I will share what I can find out, and as NYC recovers relative to other cities, I expect the news will cease to be altogether bleak. We hit 43.7% in the NLJ250 at the peak of hiring, so there is ample goodwill toward the school when firms are ready to increase class size. Timing the turnaround is going to be interesting... I hope it isn't foolish to hope for my own classmates.

[270910]

Disco, is this an all inclusive average? I'm not certain the ratio of market paying jobs to total law school graduates in the 2006-2008 period, but that certainly is plausible, given the number of schools that only sent a tiny handful of grads into biglaw during the boom.

Yup. There are something like ~5K 6 figure NLJ 250 jobs available to new grads, if I remember the math correctly (with roughly 1/2 of those going to T14 students).

I thought so. We hear rumors about the proportion in which the reduction has been carried out. I don't know if I even want to see aggregate data from the class of 2011. CLS made theirs available, and that was depressing enough! I will share what I can find out, and as NYC recovers relative to other cities, I expect the news will cease to be altogether bleak. We hit 43.7% in the NLJ250 at the peak of hiring, so there is ample goodwill toward the school when firms are ready to increase class size. Timing the turnaround is going to be interesting... I hope it isn't foolish to hope for my own classmates.

Hope is never foolish. 3L OCI, international law, entry level big law after graduation, and a pile of other things we deride as 'fake' on this website still exist, and if you happen to be the person who gets it then hooray. That being said, the tea leaves suggest that there's basically zero 'big law hope' for those who struck out in c/o 2011 and 2010 as a group. Plenty of hope in the rest of the legal field and life, but not really for big law.

[OperaSoprano]

Disco, is this an all inclusive average? I'm not certain the ratio of market paying jobs to total law school graduates in the 2006-2008 period, but that certainly is plausible, given the number of schools that only sent a tiny handful of grads into biglaw during the boom.

Yup. There are something like ~5K 6 figure NLJ 250 jobs available to new grads, if I remember the math correctly (with roughly 1/2 of those going to T14 students).

I thought so. We hear rumors about the proportion in which the reduction has been carried out. I don't know if I even want to see aggregate data from the class of 2011. CLS made theirs available, and that was depressing enough! I will share what I can find out, and as NYC recovers relative to other cities, I expect the news will cease to be altogether bleak. We hit 43.7% in the NLJ250 at the peak of hiring, so there is ample goodwill toward the school when firms are ready to increase class size. Timing the turnaround is going to be interesting... I hope it isn't foolish to hope for my own classmates.

Hope is never foolish. 3L OCI, international law, entry level big law after graduation, and a pile of other things we deride as 'fake' on this website still exist, and if you happen to be the person who gets it then hooray. That being said, the tea leaves suggest that there's basically zero 'big law hope' for those who struck out in c/o 2011 and 2010 as a group. Plenty of hope in the rest of the legal field and life, but not really for big law.

You've been reading that Kimm Alayne Walton book (The Guerilla Guide)again, haven't you? Did you like it? She seems to think the rules can be broken. I won't ignore the base rate, though I've certainly been luckier than I merit (outside of the biglaw framework-- OCI is still such an unknown.)

[najumobi]

Location is not all that important to me. What is important is paying off student loans as fast as possible. My choices are Fordham, Emory, GW, and WashU. Which one will best enable me to get a Biglaw job in each respective market. I think the information most important to this question is what type of placement is there at these schools for graduates not in the top 10% which is more likely where i will find myself.

i think GW would give you the best chance at getting a big law job, but Wustl would be the safest pick b/c if you weren't in the top 1/3 of the class you could more easily find a 40k-50k job i where the cost of living would be so high, allowing your debt to be more manageable. atlanta would be just as cheap as the midwest, but wustl would give you a better chance at biglaw than emory would.

[270910]

You've been reading that Kimm Alayne Walton book (The Guerilla Guide)again, haven't you? Did you like it? She seems to think the rules can be broken. I won't ignore the base rate, though I've certainly been luckier than I merit (outside of the biglaw framework-- OCI is still such an unknown.)

haha, at least taking it to heart. But if everyone could break the rules, nobody would have to. I kind of feel the same way about the law school curve and exam advice. Individual people can do well, but it's not like the first year class at Northwestern this year will work so well together their professors will be shocked to find they all got As No matter how we try, the advice from TLS doesn't really don't beat or even fight back at the system, it just redistributes it.

There will be winners and losers. You just have to focus on your own path.

[GermX]

could more easily find a 40k-50k job

I think a sentence like this should motivate everyone to study their asses off. Seriously, imagine graduating as a lawyer from a T-20 or T-30 and making only 40k once you're out. I would hang myself. What the fuck is the point. It would take you over a decade just to pay back your loan (with interest, considering living expenses etc...) and you would be living like a shit turd doing a job for a salary that you could have gotten with your Bachelor's degree.

Scary.

[concerned1]

agreed. going to school for years just to make 50k is ridiculous.