So I chose GW Law over Fordham. Forum

[OperaSoprano]

But from what I understand, overall employment for GW seems to be stronger, I'e heard horror stories out of Fordham with 50% of students having to seriously struggle for jobs in NYC.

Hi. This is the economy. Have we met?

I admit that this was funny, but yeah, recent grads everywhere outside the most elite schools had it rough. Our class of 2009 still had 85% employed at graduation (closer to 90% is more usual for Fordham, going up to 95-98% by the 9 month mark, with figures based on ~99% of the class). IMO employed at graduation stats are the most useful, because by nine months out, the jobs people take are less likely to be the kinds of things they wanted to do. (The exception is for public interest employers, who often hire after students pass the bar.) I certainly will believe people had to hustle for these jobs, but as the economy turns around, the class of 2013 may be in a better situation. Fordham's historical placement (pre-recession) was far above what its rank would suggest.

[GermX]

Btw I'm by no means trying to disparage Fordham, I think its a good school--otherwise why would I have considered it in the first place? The problem here is that, in my humble opinion, GW Law just seems to be a far better school. It's rank, programs (3rd in the country in IP, for example) just seems to set it above Fordham in every way. I was also way more impressed with the way they handled my application, sent in app materials, the help I got with financial aid, etc... it just seems to me that the only reason I would go to Fordham is because I would love to live in NY for the next 3 years.

[romothesavior]

Btw I'm by no means trying to disparage Fordham, I think its a good school--otherwise why would I have considered it in the first place? The problem here is that, in my humble opinion, GW Law just seems to be a far better school. It's rank, programs (3rd in the country in IP, for example) just seems to set it above Fordham in every way. I was also way more impressed with the way they handled my application, sent in app materials, the help I got with financial aid, etc... it just seems to me that the only reason I would go to Fordham is because I would love to live in NY for the next 3 years.

Sigh... you just don't get it. You keep citing the rank as the most important reason you're choosing GWU over Fordham. IGNORE the rank... it really just serves as a rough guide. The rankings try (although pretty unsuccessfully) to gauge a school's overall, objective value. But once you start putting in your own factors and desires (region you want to practice, preference of city and campus, level debt aversion, etc.), the rankings pretty much go out the window.

Bottom line:
-If you want to end up in NYC, go to Fordham. Hands down. Fordham is probably among the top 15 or so choices for the NYC market. Great alumni base, great opportunities to network while in the city, and it get a lot of NYC firms at OCI.

-If you want to be anywhere else on the east coast (especially DC), go to GWU. Fordham is pretty much a New York school, and the degree doesn't travel much. GWU is a better school for the rest of the region.

We're not saying you're making a bad decision by picking GW over Fordham... we're simply saying your primary reason for doing so (the rank) is pretty stupid.

[GermX]

It's honestly not the primary reason, it's just the one that tipped over the edge. Both are similiar schools so I had pros and cons for both, but when the rankings came out, it made the choice to go to GW easier because I felt that I owed it to myself to go to a school in the top 20, not to mention a school rising in the rankings, rather than a school that seems to be in free fall ATM.

Also, IMO GW Law does place decently in New York. If I made it a goal to place in NY and I got good grades, I don't think it would be far fetched to believe that I would have a chance at getting a job there.

[romothesavior]

It's honestly not the primary reason, it's just the one that tipped over the edge. Both are similiar schools so I had pros and cons for both, but when the rankings came out, it made the choice to go to GW easier because I felt that I owed it to myself to go to a school in the top 20, not to mention a school rising in the rankings, rather than a school that seems to be in free fall ATM.

Also, IMO GW Law does place decently in New York. If I made it a goal to place in NY and I got good grades, I don't think it would be far fetched to believe that I would have a chance at getting a job there.

Your reasoning:

--ImageRemoved--

Thankfully I got off at the last station. Have a good night.

[PDaddy]

I don't get why you guys think that the US News Rankings won't influence employers. I don't mean an employer is going to go "well, GW=20, Fordham=34, therefore, I take the GW guy", but they might think, okay, GW Law is advancing in the rankings and seems to be the better school, so lets have a preference for that law school this year over Fordham.

I just feel like graduating from a now not even T-30 school=entering a world of even more intense competition for NY jobs.

And yes, I do want NY law, and I know GW Law can provide that. It isn't NY or bust though--its "job or bust". Working in D.C. would not be a bad option if the pay is good.

Employers care about rankings ONLY to the extent that they represent long-term trends. No employer is going to think that Fordham grads are somehow less talented this year just because of a fall in the rankings. Fordham has traditionally been a consensus top-30 school, and will likely continue to be.

Some people even think it's top-20 caliber, like GWU was, is and has long been. I am sure that GWU's recent decline made people think twice about going there, and I am sure many of those people (now 2L's and 3L's) are regretting making such a hasty, uninformed decision. If they picked Fordham, BU, BC, W & M, W & L, ND, or Indiana over GWU because of ranking, they picked for the wrong reason...as you are doing now.

I gave plenty of reasons, but cited the rankings as the final reason that pushed me towards choosing GW Law. I'm pretty much waiting on Cornell at this point, which of course I would attend over GW Law.

Why..."of course"? Is Cornell that much better than GWU? Is it better? Some people think Cornell is extremely overrated and overranked. And are it's programs and course offerings better for you? Is the environment in Ithaca better than that in D.C.? Why..."of course"?

I will tell you why: the rankings dictate your choices of schools. Some dude who doesn't even know you, who has created a jacked up methodology for ranking schools, who knows little or nothing about law, legal education or the schools he is ranking, is running your life...determining your future. So, why don't you give me your bank account numbersso that I can "invest" your money for you. It seems as though you like to let others make important choices for you.

[GermX]

^ Why Cornell over GW? Because Cornell= T-14=better placement in New York and even in D.C., IMO. You have to be kidding me. When you reach t-14 the rankings do matter. Only an idiot would state otherwise, sorry.

[Curare]

lol @ this argument. romo is out to kill. stay strong, germy, stay strong.

[ryguy]

I am wondering if anyone else has made a decision like this. Personally, I found Fordham to be a great school. But I have always liked GW Law's location, size, campus, etc... and felt that they had stronger programs. Still, I was leaning on Fordham because of its strength in the NY market, but with the new rankings coming out, it just seemed like madness--why would I go to the school that is dropping consistently in the rankings (now down to 34), and not the school that is now a T-20?

Judging by your behavior in the Cornell thread, I am going to kick the living shit out of you at some point during the year; especially if you're in my section. I suggest you being praying now, for your own safety. Just letting you know in advance.


Also, now at least I know with absolute certainty that I won't be at the bottom of my class.

++1

[GermX]

Btw, I still find it funny that you guys think that picking GW over Fordham=train wreck/bad decision/etc.. etc... even if the reasons for it surround the rankings. GW Law has been great btw. Just got an e-mail from them regarding BAR requirments and other reminders. Fordham? Not so much. Not a peep since my acceptance. Not even an admissions packet. Honestly, it is quite clear, at least in terms of how they handle incoming students, which school deserves to be T-20 and which one shouldn't even be a T-30 (which now the USNR has finally represented).

[td6624]

The point is, do you honestly know what you're talking about? Let me further describe my family's financial situation right here. We have (and no, I'm not lying) homes, yes, houses/apartments we own, in London, Paris, Madrid, Riyadh, Dubai, Lebanon, Amman, Cairo, the Philippines, and, of course, in Los Angeles (as well as in Houston). We have dozens of cars, with each location having at least 3+ cars.

While we don't own our own private jet, we do fly first-class on the world's best airlines, and we fly whenever, wherever we want.

I'll describe my mom's current flight itinerary: Milan 2 weeks ago to attend fashion week, before that, New York and Los Angeles, and right now, currently taking a tour across Turkey and Greece, followed by a 1 week stop in Rome with my dad.

Obviously, there are people richer than us. But I promise you buddy, we're rich. Not new rich, we are actually rich.

EDIT: Btw, do you honestly think that I would go around town talking about my expensive clothes? Heh, they speak for themselves, buddy. However, on these forums, we did derail a bit from my original point, which was that Ithaca=shit village, Los Angeles=cool city.

wow.

Insecure much?

[GermX]

^ It was a flame, *sigh*.

[td6624]

oh ok

[clintonius]

Btw, I still find it funny that you guys think that picking GW over Fordham=train wreck/bad decision/etc.. etc... even if the reasons for it surround the rankings. GW Law has been great btw. Just got an e-mail from them regarding BAR requirments and other reminders. Fordham? Not so much. Not a peep since my acceptance. Not even an admissions packet. Honestly, it is quite clear, at least in terms of how they handle incoming students, which school deserves to be T-20 and which one shouldn't even be a T-30 (which now the USNR has finally represented).

Yeah man. I still haven't gotten my tiny map of Manhattan from NYU. Fucking TTT. They deserved to drop to 6th.

[GermX]

^ Hehe. But I'm pretty sure that, once you get accepted over at NYU, you get a nice purple envelope with a bunch of really important shit in there. Furthermore, you get a steam of e-mail communication etc.., maybe even a dean's personal note on your acceptance letter?

Just saying. Not that important, but it does give a little bit of an idea of what at least the Dean of each school is about.

[GermX]

Oh, and as for choosing a T-14 (cornell) over Fordham/GW, its called prestige buddy, some of us here actually care about that.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Btw, I still find it funny that you guys think that picking GW over Fordham=train wreck/bad decision/etc.. etc... even if the reasons for it surround the rankings. GW Law has been great btw. Just got an e-mail from them regarding BAR requirments and other reminders. Fordham? Not so much. Not a peep since my acceptance. Not even an admissions packet. Honestly, it is quite clear, at least in terms of how they handle incoming students, which school deserves to be T-20 and which one shouldn't even be a T-30 (which now the USNR has finally represented).

It's a very questionable decision if they're both at sticker and you want to work in NYC. Do you really thinking people on hiring committees have print-outs of the current rankings and keep up with schools on a year-to-year basis? I imagine the biggest way the rankings affect people on hiring committees is how the schools ranked back when they were applying.

And how good a school's admissions department is nice, but they don't provide you with a job after 3 years.

[td6624]

If you wanted NYC, you made the wrong decision.

[/thread]

[BarbellDreams]

Let me get this straight: You wanna practice in NYC and you are picking GW over Fordham? Umm, yeah, good luck with that. If you like numbers so much why don't you look at NLJ250 placement statistics instead of worrying about a few spots on the US News incredibly flawed ranking system.

[GermX]

Well, as I've said before, I want NYC, but I don't need it. I would be perfectly fine practicing in Washington D.C. or any other place for that matter. What is important is that I get big law etc... and a well-paying job. As for the tuition, to be honest, my dad will be paying the full cost (I'm still submitting for financial aid etc... though to help lessen the load) so I'm not concerned in terms of loans etc...

It just seems like GW Law will put me in a better position, in general (D.C. or NY market), to get a job. I'm also pretty sure that graduating in the top 10% of my class at GW Law will pretty much put me on a level footing with a Fordham grad in terms of finding a job in NYC. There are lots of firms there and they do hire from GW Law--that is a fact.

(BTW, I know that its never a sure thing and I could possibly fuck up in school. In that case, whether its Fordham or GW Law, I'm fucked anyways.)

[T14_Scholly]

What is important is that I get big law etc... and a well-paying job.

It just seems like GW Law will put me in a better position, in general (D.C. or NY market), to get a job. I'm also pretty sure that graduating in the top 10% of my class at GW Law will pretty much put me on a level footing with a Fordham grad in terms of finding a job in NYC.

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[GermX]

Btw, it seems like GW Law places graduates in the NLJ 250 better than Fordham does. I wonder how much self-selection plays a role in terms of graduates working in D.C. over NYC--anyways, with 20% of GW graduates working in NYC, IMO GW does have pretty good placement there.

While Fordham, on the other hand, I don't even know if that school places out of NYC at all...

[GermX]

NLJ250 placement.

1. Northwestern (55.9%)
2. Columbia (54.4%)
3. Stanford (54.1%)
4. Chicago (53.1%)
5. Virginia (52.8%)
6. Michigan (51.0%)
7. Penn (50.8%)
8. NYU (50.1%)
9. UC-Berkeley (50.0%)
10. Duke (49.8%)
11. Harvard (47.6%)
12. Vanderbilt (47.1%)
13. Georgetown (42.8%)
14. Cornell (41.5%)
15. USC (41.3%)
16. Texas (36.9%)
17. UCLA (35.9%)
18. Yale (35.3%)
19. Boston College (34.6%)
20. Boston University (30.4%)
21. George Washington (31.6%)
22. Fordham (29.4%)
23. Notre Dame (28.8%)
24. Washington University (27.5%)
25. Illinois (26.7%)

[td6624]

So the 2% difference outweighs the desire to stay in NYC?

And I don't know how confident you should be in being in a position to take these kinds of jobs from either school.

but whatev. do what you want.

[GermX]

It's not just the 2% difference. It's everything--better admissions committee, D.C. location, good IL programs, a top-5 intellectual property law program, a national reputation, a prestigious school and it places decently in NYC. Plus, its ranked in the top 20, while Fordham isn't even Top 30. That's a fact.

Also, I'm concerned about Fordham being an NYC or bust kind of school. NYC is already competitive, imagine how much competition within Fordham itself.