Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!! Forum

[FreddyBigShot]

UMN's seat deposit is due at midnight (well technically 1 AM b/c I'm on the east coast). I'd like to work in California, but I'm most concerned about job prospects. The cost of these two schools is virtually identical (Davis would be a little cheaper - like $20k - though). I edited this to make it known that job prospects are most important and that location is secondary. I'm stuck because these schools seem to have very similar employment data and both states have crappy economies. However, UMN has been in the T25 (and often in the T20) since the beginning of the USNWR, while Davis has been as low as 44 (though as high as 22). Does that mean anything? My gut says Davis, but my head says UMN.

I visited Davis last year and LOVED it.

I visited Minnesota during their March preview weekend, and was impressed. The students did seem a little nerdy, though. Not that that should be a reason to not attend.

I feel that Davis would give me the best shot at working in California, but I wouldn't mind working in Minneapolis either - the city is awesome. Also, I get the sense that Minnesota has some portability after talking with students (roughly 60% are from the Midwest and opt to stay), but 45% do leave Minnesota after graduation and their are alumni everywhere (and they set up interviews around the country). However, I realize that it will take more effort to get to CA, but I feel that the UMN degree is more "prestigious" and may benefit me the most in the long run.

I visited Davis and was impressed by the students, dean, town, and school. Also, the school's recent rise in the rankings is another plus. However, although only six spots now separate UMN and Davis, I feel that Davis is less prestigious and that a UMN degree will open more doors. Any thoughts on this?
I also feel, though, that it is also a school on the rise (and not just because of this year's rankings). I also like the smaller class size and I get the sense (for a variety of reasons, from the caliber of the entering class, to the laid back atmosphere, etc) that it would be easier to be at the top of the class at Davis than at UMN. I know that one can never bank on being at the top of the class, and I'm trying to evaluate these schools by assuming that I will graduate at the median, BUT I feel that I would be higher at Davis than at UMN.

I honestly can't decide at all. Please vote and add any and all advice!

[FreddyBigShot]

I mean, is there any risk that if I attend either of these schools (and graduate at say median), that I'll end up a doc reviewer? How bad is it out there?

[Mosca]

You want to work in California, the schools are the same price, and you loved Davis, why are you even thinking about Minnesota?

[NayBoer]

I'd like to work in California, but I'm also concerned about job prospects. The cost of these two schools is almost identical.

I visited Davis last year and LOVED it.

I don't really need to read past this point.

Ignore the rankings. Don't go because Davis is in the 20s this year. Next year it might be 30s or 40s.

I mean, is there any risk that if I attend either of these schools (and graduate at say median), that I'll end up a doc reviewer? How bad is it out there?

Yes, you might be severely underemployed coming out of almost any school. Your chances of failing to find six-figure employment are noticeably higher at these schools than a T14 or T6, as you already know.

Between these two, Davis is the choice for CA. It may limit you to Northern California, and don't go if you aren't willing to work in Sacramento.

Don't be afraid to pick neither.

[FreddyBigShot]

You want to work in California, the schools are the same price, and you loved Davis, why are you even thinking about Minnesota?

But I'm even more worried about job prospects and I feel that UMN has an edge in that regard.

[FreddyBigShot]

I'd like to work in California, but I'm also concerned about job prospects. The cost of these two schools is almost identical.

I visited Davis last year and LOVED it.

I don't really need to read past this point.

Ignore the rankings. Don't go because Davis is in the 20s this year. Next year it might be 30s or 40s.

I mean, is there any risk that if I attend either of these schools (and graduate at say median), that I'll end up a doc reviewer? How bad is it out there?

Yes, you might be severely underemployed coming out of almost any school. Your chances of failing to find six-figure employment are noticeably higher at these schools than a T14 or T6, as you already know.

Between these two, Davis is the choice for CA. It may limit you to Northern California, and don't go if you aren't willing to work in Sacramento.

Don't be afraid to pick neither.

I don't need a six figure salary, but I'm also scared shitless of attending a "T30ish" school and then ending up with a job that any Cooley or Widener grad could get.

[Mosca]

You want to work in California, the schools are the same price, and you loved Davis, why are you even thinking about Minnesota?

But I'm even more worried about job prospects and I feel that UMN has an edge in that regard.

The dude above you nailed it. These are peer schools with nearly identical placement in their respective regions. You loved Davis, go there.

[NayBoer]

I'd like to work in California, but I'm also concerned about job prospects. The cost of these two schools is almost identical.

I visited Davis last year and LOVED it.

I don't really need to read past this point.

Ignore the rankings. Don't go because Davis is in the 20s this year. Next year it might be 30s or 40s.

I mean, is there any risk that if I attend either of these schools (and graduate at say median), that I'll end up a doc reviewer? How bad is it out there?

Yes, you might be severely underemployed coming out of almost any school. Your chances of failing to find six-figure employment are noticeably higher at these schools than a T14 or T6, as you already know.

Between these two, Davis is the choice for CA. It may limit you to Northern California, and don't go if you aren't willing to work in Sacramento.

Don't be afraid to pick neither.

I don't need a six figure salary, but I'm also scared shitless of attending a "T30ish" school and then ending up with a job that any Cooley or Widener grad could get.

The two schools had somewhat comparable NLJ placement rates last time around - 16.7 versus 19.4.
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

But historically Minn probably does have a bit of an edge, being solidly ranked for a long time, and being at the top of its market. It's not a huge difference. Just be willing to live in MSP if you go Minn.

If you're scared of poor placement, retake the LSAT. Worked for me and my GPA is shit point shit.

[FreddyBigShot]

Come on people, vote and give me advice!!! I'm desperate - Haven't slept in two days for fuck's sake!

[Slimpee]

I am going to copy and paste something a partner at a well-respected firm wrote me in regards to different schools:

The principal benefit of attending T30 School A vs T30 School B, say, is that if you intend to practice in State X it is of enormous benefit to have been schooled here. Your classmates will become the judges, general counsels, and senior executives of companies that you want to hire you. There is no comparable benefit from Lower Tier One School C.

You want to work in CA. Go to Davis.

[FreddyBigShot]

I am going to copy and paste something a partner at a well-respected firm wrote me in regards to different schools:

The principal benefit of attending T30 School A vs T30 School B, say, is that if you intend to practice in State X it is of enormous benefit to have been schooled here. Your classmates will become the judges, general counsels, and senior executives of companies that you want to hire you. There is no comparable benefit from Lower Tier One School C.

You want to work in CA. Go to Davis.

So you think that the job prospects are a wash and that location should be the deal breaker for me?

[Geist13]

It sounds like your brain is not really thinking about this properly. When comparing Davis to UMN, sure UMN has historically been a "better" school and it may in fact have some advantage in terms of national reach. But these differences are by no mean substantial.

Your brain is one-sidedly focused on rankings and presuming that careers correlate to rankings. Your brain should be saying: Since there are no deal-breaking differences between the two (including cost), I should go to the place I have the best chance of performing well as a student. In this case, that sounds very much like Davis.

[FreddyBigShot]

I should once again emphasize that I would prefer CA, but that I wouldn’t mind at all getting stuck in the Twin Cities. Jobs>>>location at this point (as long as that location is NOT the South).

[Geist13]

Jobs>>>location at this point (as long as that location is NOT the South).

Exactly. And those jobs are determined much more by your rank and GPA than whether your school is ranked 22 or 30 (I'm not sure of Davis' rank off the top of my head). The importance of jobs is the reason you should, in this instance, pick the school you feel more comfortable at.

[Slimpee]

I am going to copy and paste something a partner at a well-respected firm wrote me in regards to different schools:

The principal benefit of attending T30 School A vs T30 School B, say, is that if you intend to practice in State X it is of enormous benefit to have been schooled here. Your classmates will become the judges, general counsels, and senior executives of companies that you want to hire you. There is no comparable benefit from Lower Tier One School C.

You want to work in CA. Go to Davis.

So you think that the job prospects are a wash and that location should be the deal breaker for me?

Well, it's not like we're comparing Harvard to Appalachian State. I think MN and Davis are both reasonably strong in their region so location should be the deciding factor. Aside from what I quoted earlier, I have been told many times that you should attend school where you want to practice. If I KNEW that I wanted to work in San Diego there's no question i'd go to USD...

[FreddyBigShot]

It sounds like your brain is not really thinking about this properly. When comparing Davis to UMN, sure UMN has historically been a "better" school and it may in fact have some advantage in terms of national reach. But these differences are by no mean substantial.

Your brain is one-sidedly focused on rankings and presuming that careers correlate to rankings. Your brain should be saying: Since there are no deal-breaking differences between the two (including cost), I should go to the place I have the best chance of performing well as a student. In this case, that sounds very much like Davis.

Thank you. And I'm not going to lie - My brain is focused on the rankings. I need people to bring me back to reality.

The other thing I’m focused on is that UMN dominates its market like few schools do. Sure, the Twin Cities aren’t a huge market, but there isn’t another school that even sniffs it there. Plus, few T14ers are going to want to work in MN. The “U” is held in such high regard in MN. It’s produced governors, judges, attorney generals and even a Vice President in a way that Davis hasn’t. Hell, even some T14s aren’t the top dog in their market. Even Northwestern has to deal with Chicago and Michigan, Cornell with everyone, et cetera. Davis has to deal with UCLA, USC, Berkeley, Stanford, Hastings, Irvine and the T14. However, the CA market is massive and like its own country. Does CA’s size balance out the fact that UMN is “top dog” in its relatively small market?

[FreddyBigShot]

Jobs>>>location at this point (as long as that location is NOT the South).

Exactly. And those jobs are determined much more by your rank and GPA than whether your school is ranked 22 or 30 (I'm not sure of Davis' rank off the top of my head). The importance of jobs is the reason you should, in this instance, pick the school you feel more comfortable at.

Thank you. This is what my gut is telling me.

[Slimpee]

I should once again emphasize that I would prefer CA, but that I wouldn’t mind at all getting stuck in the Twin Cities. Jobs>>>location at this point (as long as that location is NOT the South).

A. The fact that you wrote "stuck" is telling. and B. Job prospects at UMN in MN vs. Davis in CA are probably close enough to be a wash. Although it's probably worth pointing out the fact that UMN is the big dog in the Twin Cities while Davis is one of a handful of "second-tier" school in CA. Still, there are boatloads more law jobs in CA...I still vote Davis. The ranking and career prospects just aren't a big enough difference if you prefer CA

[Kiersten1985]

Go with your gut.

[Geist13]

Davis has to deal with UCLA, USC, Berkeley, Stanford, Hastings, Irvine and the T14. However, the CA market is massive and like its own country. Does CA’s size balance out the fact that UMN is “top dog” in its market?

This is where I think the decision gets difficult. I chose UMN over UIUC for this exact reason. But in my case, neither of those two schools would feel like home to me. I'm going to have to leave the east coast in either situation (since I go zero east coast love). If, for example I had gotten into BC, I would have chosen that over UMN or UIUC simply because Boston is more within my comfort zone (though I've never lived there).

[ogman05]

Go to Davis man. Its what I would do. I actually visited the school last year when I was in cali. Kind of secluded but if you like it done deal. One way i make decisions is flip a coin with a decision on each side. If one is picked for you and you dont care go there. If it lands heads and you still kind of feel like you want tails then your mind is telling you tales. I have a feeling you will be at Davis though. Enjoy man.

[FreddyBigShot]

Davis has to deal with UCLA, USC, Berkeley, Stanford, Hastings, Irvine and the T14. However, the CA market is massive and like its own country. Does CA’s size balance out the fact that UMN is “top dog” in its market?

This is where I think the decision gets difficult. I chose UMN over UIUC for this exact reason. But in my case, neither of those two schools would feel like home to me. I'm going to have to leave the east coast in either situation (since I go zero east coast love). If, for example I had gotten into BC, I would have chosen that over UMN or UIUC simply because Boston is more within my comfort zone (though I've never lived there).

I know. It sucks, doesn't it? I'm glad someone else is in the same boat. The Twin Cities really are fabulous, however. I was shocked by how cool (hip even?) Minneapolis was when I visited. And the weather sucked in March, so I imgaine my impression would have been even better if the weather was nice. NorCal is nice, too, though...

[FreddyBigShot]

Go to Davis man. Its what I would do. I actually visited the school last year when I was in cali. Kind of secluded but if you like it done deal. One way i make decisions is flip a coin with a decision on each side. If one is picked for you and you dont care go there. If it lands heads and you still kind of feel like you want tails then your mind is telling you tales. I have a feeling you will be at Davis though. Enjoy man.

This actually isn't a bad idea.

[14yearplan]

With the way I read your current indecisiveness, any short answer on here is simply another road block for you to worry about in making your decision.

Just something else for you to think about . . . but maybe look into broadening your horizons and going to the school that will offer you a different perspective on life. If you're from California and went to undergrad there, try out the Midwest while you still have a chance (or vice versa). I personally believe that too much emphasis is placed on the wrong factors when deciding where to attend. I could be wrong, but it also seems like you don't want to go to Davis from the way you write so fondly of it but are still strongly considering Minnesota. You are trying to sell others into agreeing with your decision to go to Minnesota, and that's fine. I can tell you that you can't really go wrong. Make a decision, own it, and then try to be above the median when you graduate if you're so worried about job prospects. You have more control over your future than you want to realize, and whether you go to Davis or Minnesota, in my opinion, is far less of a worry than you realizing this last point. Learn now how to comfortably make an informed decision, and you will be ahead of the game later on in life.

Good luck in your decision. Trust yourself. Trust in your instincts. You can and will make the right decision . . . if you only allow yourself to.

[FreddyBigShot]

The one other thing that also makes me think about UMN is that I’d like to someday get into politics. Not only do/have UMN grads dominate MN in a way that the grads of few schools do, but as an Olympia Snowe/Bob Casey/Arlen Specter-style moderate (I’m a registered independent) I’d fit in perfect with the Minnesota people. Davis doesn’t do too well on the political front it seems, however. Plus, as a moderate I’d probably be viewed as Rush Limbaugh by the people of NorCal

However, isn't this getting a bit ahead of myself?