Weird. I'm actually making a poll and asking for help. Forum

[coulduhelpplz]

Normally, I'm a good planner. Fantastic, even. I've made life-changing decisions without losing too much sleep, but choosing an LS is driving me nuts.

Here's what I've got:

Michigan - 45k
Duke - ?
NU - told me to wait till the 15th of April for a decision on $$
Cornell - ?
GULC - told me to tell them how much I need

UCLA - ?
UT - 69k
Vandy - 72k
USC - 73k

Wash U - full ride (no stipend)
UIUC - full ride (no stipend)

It sort of breaks down into 3 categories. I'm just not sure what to do ITE. I am incredibly mobile and flexible (have ties to the west, the midwest, and the east) and have no preferences. I want to work for the government eventually, but I'd love to try my hand at biglaw first. I'm interested in energy law, but I have no ideas about how to apply that preference to my choices. I wish I could go to the energy legal blog and find a list of schools that kick ass in that field. Working for the DOE someday would be a dream (I speak a couple foreign languages that would help, especially with the nuclear club), but I know how hard it is to get in.

I imagine that Duke, NU, Cornell and GULC will probably offer something in the 30-50k range, given what Mich gave me.

Do I:
- take the full rides and run?
- write to the schools ranked 15-20 and tell them to give me a full ride and I'll go?
- enjoy the education offered by a t14 school?

I've read so many sides of this argument, heard lots of stories about people saying to take the highest ranked school you can get into and fight like crazy to get into the top third, or recommendations to take the biggest scholly you can get at a school that allows you to do what you want to do.

Problem is, I'm not sure what is required for what I want to do. All of the backgrounds I've read (about the individuals whose jobs I'd love to have) vary so much. Plus, the game has changed in the past 5 years. Bob Hertzberg, sort of my career-path idol, went to Hastings and kicked ass in the 30 years following. On the flip side, the DOE's GC reads something like HLS, HLS, HLS, Hastings, HLS, SLS.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help (inb4 tl;dr).

[djgoldbe]

Mich with 45k, unless duke or NU gives you more.

[KG_CalGuy]

Normally, I'm a good planner. Fantastic, even. I've made life-changing decisions without losing too much sleep, but choosing an LS is driving me nuts.

Here's what I've got:

Michigan - 45k
Duke - ?
NU - told me to wait till the 15th of April for a decision
Cornell - ?
GULC - told me to tell them how much I need

UCLA - ?
UT - 69k
Vandy - 72k
USC - 73k

Wash U - full ride (no stipend)
UIUC - full ride (no stipend)

It sort of breaks down into 3 categories. I'm just not sure what to do ITE. I am incredibly mobile and flexible (have ties to the west, the midwest, and the east) and have no preferences. I want to work for the government eventually, but I'd love to try my hand at biglaw first. I'm interested in energy law, but I have no ideas about how to apply that preference to my choices. I wish I could go to the energy legal blog and find a list of schools that kick ass in that field. Working for the DOE someday would be a dream (I speak a couple foreign languages that would help, especially with the nuclear club), but I know how hard it is to get in.

I imagine that Duke, NU, Cornell and GULC will probably offer something in the 30-50k range, given what Mich gave me.

Do I:
- take the full rides and run?
- write to the schools ranked 15-20 and tell them to give me a full ride and I'll go?
- enjoy the education offered by a t14 school?

I've read so many sides of this argument, heard lots of stories about people saying to take the highest ranked school you can get into and fight like crazy to get into the top third, or recommendations to take the biggest scholly you can get at a school that allows you to do what you want to do.

Problem is, I'm not sure what is required for what I want to do. All of the backgrounds I've read (about the individuals whose jobs I'd love to have) vary so much. Plus, the game has changed in the past 5 years. Bob Hertzberg, sort of my career-path idol, went to Hastings and kicked ass in the 30 years following. On the flip side, the DOE's GC reads something like HLS, HLS, HLS, Hastings, HLS, SLS.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help (inb4 tl;dr).

Two things to consider:
(1) Georgetown has a limited budget so don't push them too hard. I essentially told them to match an offer I had at UCLA and they said they didn't have that much money.

(2) Hastings is a much different school than it used to be. They used to have a strong reputation because they hired all of these professors that were made to retire at other top programs (apparently schools used to have an age requirement for professors). The school seems to be on a study decline and I wouldn't be surprised if the UC shuts it down.

Anyways, I think Michigan is a solid program but I wouldn't want to live in Michigan. In my opinion, most of the other programs are all a wash (I don't see a major difference between UCLA/UT and Duke), so I think it really comes down to where you want to live

[Renzo]

Michigan. It's a no-brainer (unless you absolutely detest Ann Arbor).

[coulduhelpplz]

Two things to consider:
(1) Georgetown has a limited budget so don't push them too hard. I essentially told them to match an offer I had at UCLA and they said they didn't have that much money.

(2) Hastings is a much different school than it used to be. They used to have a strong reputation because they hired all of these professors that were made to retire at other top programs (apparently schools used to have an age requirement for professors). The school seems to be on a study decline and I wouldn't be surprised if the UC shuts it down.

Anyways, I think Michigan is a solid program but I wouldn't want to live in Michigan. In my opinion, most of the other programs are all a wash (I don't see a major difference between UCLA/UT and Duke), so I think it really comes down to where you want to live

I've heard this from other sources as well. So lower than 75k and more than 45k might be a good sum to ask for? Not that it would be a huge game changer. GULC and UMich were basically even for me 3 months ago (I was planning on doing a JD/MA, with the MA being in an area where UM and GULC kick ass, but learning about hiring schedules has almost completely scared me away from the MA).

I agree with you that the some of the other programs are very similar. I think it works out this way: est. COA at UMich = 160k. Est. COA at, say, USC = 140k. So that difference in scholarship is almost negated by higher COL, right? Though I feel like I might be able to write USC/UT/UCLA and say, "I'm thinking UM unless you can help me out more."

[coulduhelpplz]

Michigan. It's a no-brainer (unless you absolutely detest Ann Arbor).

Can you help me out with why you think so? The money part is hard for me to get over.

Also, class rank (though I know you guys and gals hate talking probabilities). I was thinking that it'd be easier to place a bit higher in a school that's ranked a bit lower. I've seen some hiring requirements at firms that are basically like, "top 25 school, top 25% required." Is it always like that?

[Renzo]

Michigan. It's a no-brainer (unless you absolutely detest Ann Arbor).

Can you help me out with why you think so? The money part is hard for me to get over.

Also, class rank (though I know you guys and gals hate talking probabilities). I was thinking that it'd be easier to place a bit higher in a school that's ranked a bit lower. I've seen some hiring requirements at firms that are basically like, "top 25 school, top 25% required." Is it always like that?

It's basically impossible to predict where you'll end up gradewise, so assuming that you'll do better at a slightly lower ranked school is dangerous. A 45K scholarship isn't peanuts, and the difference in job prospects between NU/ Mich. compared to the others is exponential, and well worth the roughly 20K difference. If you were 100% absolutely sure you wanted to be in CA or TX, it might change my advice, but you're not (so it doesn't).

[coulduhelpplz]

Ok, so NU/UM seem to be the way to go (and those need to be chosen based on feel, from what I've read of previous years' posts).

If NYU (pending) or CLS (WL there) let me in, would it be worth considering sticker there for the better reputation? I still have no super strong desire to be in a particular geographic location. I've visited CLS and NYU and loved only NYU, but I've yet to visit Mich or NU. Is the gap between CCN and BPMDNV (or however else you'd like to divide it) really that big? Or, at least big enough to justify paying sticker at either?

I'm sort of praying for a ding from NYU and no relief from CLS's waitlist so I don't have to make that decision.

This is the first time I've felt like UT, UCLA, USC, Vandy are that far behind the t14.

[Renzo]

Ok, so NU/UM seem to be the way to go (and those need to be chosen based on feel, from what I've read of previous years' posts).

If NYU (pending) or CLS (WL there) let me in, would it be worth considering sticker there for the better reputation? I still have no super strong desire to be in a particular geographic location. I've visited CLS and NYU and loved only NYU, but I've yet to visit Mich or NU. Is the gap between CCN and BPMDNV (or however else you'd like to divide it) really that big? Or, at least big enough to justify paying sticker at either?

I'm sort of praying for a ding from NYU and no relief from CLS's waitlist so I don't have to make that decision.

This is the first time I've felt like UT, UCLA, USC, Vandy are that far behind the t14.

NYU/CLS v. Mich or NU is less clear-cut. There is some difference, but again, $45k is nothing to scoff at. I would visit Michigan for sure, Ann Arbor is either great or awful, depending on who you ask.

[coulduhelpplz]

Anyone who opted to choose 15-20 for $$ or 20+ for $$$ -- would you care to comment on your reasoning? It would be a great addition to the conversation.

Renzo, what would make the choice between NYU and Mich more clear cut? Geographical preference? Desire for clerkship? Big law intentions? PI interest? Or what other sorts of questions could help me evaluate that, should I get in? I really appreciate your comments -- thanks much.

[BigA]

Not that I'd vote for it. But is the WUSTL offer supposed to be in the second or third poll option

[Renzo]

Anyone who opted to choose 15-20 for $$ or 20+ for $$$ -- would you care to comment on your reasoning? It would be a great addition to the conversation.

Renzo, what would make the choice between NYU and Mich more clear cut? Geographical preference? Desire for clerkship? Big law intentions? PI interest? Or what other sorts of questions could help me evaluate that, should I get in? I really appreciate your comments -- thanks much.

NYU/CLS are going to have slightly better biglaw prospects, and significatly better NYC networking opportunities. However, the cost of living in NYC for three years, combined with the scholarship money at Mich probably offset those advantages unless you are pretty sure you want to work in NYC after graduation, or you really don't like Ann Arbor. The same goes for NU, assuming there is scholarship money (and if not, I would definitely not pick it over NYU/CLS/Mich).

[coulduhelpplz]

Anyone who opted to choose 15-20 for $$ or 20+ for $$$ -- would you care to comment on your reasoning? It would be a great addition to the conversation.

Renzo, what would make the choice between NYU and Mich more clear cut? Geographical preference? Desire for clerkship? Big law intentions? PI interest? Or what other sorts of questions could help me evaluate that, should I get in? I really appreciate your comments -- thanks much.

NYU/CLS are going to have slightly better biglaw prospects, and significatly better NYC networking opportunities. However, the cost of living in NYC for three years, combined with the scholarship money at Mich probably offset those advantages unless you are pretty sure you want to work in NYC after graduation, or you really don't like Ann Arbor. The same goes for NU, assuming there is scholarship money (and if not, I would definitely not pick it over NYU/CLS/Mich).

Ah, so it's down to that basic tenet, then: visit and see what works. That makes sense, it's just that I think I get caught up in the whole TLS "prestige/rank is the only life preserver that can float you through this economic storm" stuff.

If I were able to choose an area to live in (for example, CA since I'm now living there), then would it ever be worth it to tell UCLA I need a full ride from them? In other words, would a 3/4 or full ride from somewhere outside the t14 ever measure up? That might be something impossible to answer...

For that west coast hypothetical, in Mich's placement statistics CA falls fifth. But it might still be better to be a Mich grad fighting against SLS and Berk than to be a UCLA grad looking to crack the LA/SD/SF markets. That about right? Seems to be the same for some of the other schools since I get the idea that Mich seems to be fairly spread out nationally regarding employment placement (sorry for assuming you're the expert on UMich, Renzo, but you seem to have some good advice).

[Renzo]

Anyone who opted to choose 15-20 for $$ or 20+ for $$$ -- would you care to comment on your reasoning? It would be a great addition to the conversation.

Renzo, what would make the choice between NYU and Mich more clear cut? Geographical preference? Desire for clerkship? Big law intentions? PI interest? Or what other sorts of questions could help me evaluate that, should I get in? I really appreciate your comments -- thanks much.

NYU/CLS are going to have slightly better biglaw prospects, and significatly better NYC networking opportunities. However, the cost of living in NYC for three years, combined with the scholarship money at Mich probably offset those advantages unless you are pretty sure you want to work in NYC after graduation, or you really don't like Ann Arbor. The same goes for NU, assuming there is scholarship money (and if not, I would definitely not pick it over NYU/CLS/Mich).

Ah, so it's down to that basic tenet, then: visit and see what works. That makes sense, it's just that I think I get caught up in the whole TLS "prestige/rank is the only life preserver that can float you through this economic storm" stuff.

If I were able to choose an area to live in (for example, CA since I'm now living there), then would it ever be worth it to tell UCLA I need a full ride from them? In other words, would a 3/4 or full ride from somewhere outside the t14 ever measure up? That might be something impossible to answer...

For that west coast hypothetical, in Mich's placement statistics CA falls fifth. But it might still be better to be a Mich grad fighting against SLS and Berk than to be a UCLA grad looking to crack the LA/SD/SF markets. That about right? Seems to be the same for some of the other schools since I get the idea that Mich seems to be fairly spread out nationally regarding employment placement (sorry for assuming you're the expert on UMich, Renzo, but you seem to have some good advice).

I'm not an expert on anything. But, you're right that Mich. spreads its grads around pretty well, but there's sort of a chicken-and-egg problem to trying to tell how well various schools do in various markets. UMich necessarily spreads its grads around, because there's no natural legal market around. By contrast, most NYUers end up in NYC and most UChi-ers end up in Chicago--but there's no way to know if people pick those cities because they went to school there, or if they went to school there because they picked the cities.

Law is an absurdly prestige-driven field, and all things being equal you might have an easier time getting a job with a big SoCal firm from a T10 school. -BUT- all things are not equal. There's a lot to be said for having the opportunity to attend bar events, CLEs, alumni dinners, networking events, etc., in the city where you want to work. So, if you were pretty certain that you wanted to be in SoCal, UCLA/USC might get an extra thumb on the scale. On the other hand, if you aren't sure about where you want to work after graduation, you'll really be limiting your options by picking one of those schools over a T10.

I think it's safe for you to scratch UIUC and Wash U off your list. Free is nice, but you can also simply not go to law school if what you want is no debt and no job.

[coulduhelpplz]

I'm not an expert on anything. But, you're right that Mich. spreads its grads around pretty well, but there's sort of a chicken-and-egg problem to trying to tell how well various schools do in various markets. UMich necessarily spreads its grads around, because there's no natural legal market around. By contrast, most NYUers end up in NYC and most UChi-ers end up in Chicago--but there's no way to know if people pick those cities because they went to school there, or if they went to school there because they picked the cities.

Law is an absurdly prestige-driven field, and all things being equal you might have an easier time getting a job with a big SoCal firm from a T10 school. -BUT- all things are not equal. There's a lot to be said for having the opportunity to attend bar events, CLEs, alumni dinners, networking events, etc., in the city where you want to work. So, if you were pretty certain that you wanted to be in SoCal, UCLA/USC might get an extra thumb on the scale. On the other hand, if you aren't sure about where you want to work after graduation, you'll really be limiting your options by picking one of those schools over a T10.

I think it's safe for you to scratch UIUC and Wash U off your list. Free is nice, but you can also simply not go to law school if what you want is no debt and no job.

Thank you for saying that. I felt like a frickin' idiot for wanting to do withdraw there because of the $$$. It pained me to throw away 60k at even UMinn and ND. I wanted to do 3 or 4 withdraws that day and chickened out because I felt like I was burning money.

[98234872348]

Michigan. It's a no-brainer (unless you absolutely detest Ann Arbor).

[jarofsoup]

Normally, I'm a good planner. Fantastic, even. I've made life-changing decisions without losing too much sleep, but choosing an LS is driving me nuts.

Here's what I've got:

Michigan - 45k
Duke - ?
NU - told me to wait till the 15th of April for a decision
Cornell - ?
GULC - told me to tell them how much I need

UCLA - ?
UT - 69k
Vandy - 72k
USC - 73k

Wash U - full ride (no stipend)
UIUC - full ride (no stipend)

It sort of breaks down into 3 categories. I'm just not sure what to do ITE. I am incredibly mobile and flexible (have ties to the west, the midwest, and the east) and have no preferences. I want to work for the government eventually, but I'd love to try my hand at biglaw first. I'm interested in energy law, but I have no ideas about how to apply that preference to my choices. I wish I could go to the energy legal blog and find a list of schools that kick ass in that field. Working for the DOE someday would be a dream (I speak a couple foreign languages that would help, especially with the nuclear club), but I know how hard it is to get in.

I imagine that Duke, NU, Cornell and GULC will probably offer something in the 30-50k range, given what Mich gave me.

Do I:
- take the full rides and run?
- write to the schools ranked 15-20 and tell them to give me a full ride and I'll go?
- enjoy the education offered by a t14 school?

I've read so many sides of this argument, heard lots of stories about people saying to take the highest ranked school you can get into and fight like crazy to get into the top third, or recommendations to take the biggest scholly you can get at a school that allows you to do what you want to do.

Problem is, I'm not sure what is required for what I want to do. All of the backgrounds I've read (about the individuals whose jobs I'd love to have) vary so much. Plus, the game has changed in the past 5 years. Bob Hertzberg, sort of my career-path idol, went to Hastings and kicked ass in the 30 years following. On the flip side, the DOE's GC reads something like HLS, HLS, HLS, Hastings, HLS, SLS.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help (inb4 tl;dr).

Two things to consider:
(1) Georgetown has a limited budget so don't push them too hard. I essentially told them to match an offer I had at UCLA and they said they didn't have that much money.

(2) Hastings is a much different school than it used to be. They used to have a strong reputation because they hired all of these professors that were made to retire at other top programs (apparently schools used to have an age requirement for professors). The school seems to be on a study decline and I wouldn't be surprised if the UC shuts it down.

Anyways, I think Michigan is a solid program but I wouldn't want to live in Michigan. In my opinion, most of the other programs are all a wash (I don't see a major difference between UCLA/UT and Duke), so I think it really comes down to where you want to live

I dont think Hasting will shut down. They are getting funds from the state but they still get private donations that keep them going. They also have a really strong alumni base. Also UC just opened up UC I which is not even accredited yet and I am assuming if they were going to cut something it would be UC Merced, then Riverside first.

[coulduhelpplz]

Not that I'd vote for it. But is the WUSTL offer supposed to be in the second or third poll option

Aaghh, you caught the error in my system. I was sort of thinking WUSTL would be in the third poll option, mostly because there does seem to be a big gap between USC/UCLA/Vandy/UT and the others.

[umichgrad]

Michigan.

Done and done.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Michigan.

Done and done.