Iowa (sticker) v Wake Forest ($67,500) Forum

[traehekat]

Okay, so... things have become a little more complicated. Maybe. I was all set to head down to Iowa tomorrow morning, tour apartments, and put down my deposit in person. Then Wake Forest comes through this afternoon with a pretty decent scholarship. Here are the numbers...

Iowa (assuming about $15,000 per year for COL)
$42,922 + $24,154(x2) + $15,000(x3) = $136,230

Wake Forest (assuming about $15,000 per year for COL)
$37,230(x3) + $15,000(x3) - $67,500 = $89,190

This is a difference of $47,040

I would be happy in either region (Iowa is closer to family, closer to Chicago where I would be happy working; Wake Forest is in North Carolina, where the weather is warmer and there are some growing markets). Because each school would still leave me with a considerable amount of debt, I am concerned about which school will give me the greatest chance at landing a job at a large firm.

My thought is that Iowa is obviously a better school, but does it really matter considering they are both rather regional? I loved the environment and students at Iowa when I visited. In fact, I love everything about the school except the price. Everything I have heard about Wake Forest has been great, but I haven't visited and I don't have time to between now and Monday (when I have to notify them if I am accepting the scholarship).

So, am I crazy for even still considering Iowa at this point? I will admit, my reservations seem to be stemming from the fact I am, deep down, a bit of a prestige whore. Iowa has always been ranked considerably higher than Wake Forest... but does it really matter?! Please help!

[kalvano]

I really don't think Iowa is worth that much more.

[traehekat]

Three people voted for Iowa before anyone voted for Wake Forest? Really? EXPLAIN YOURSELVES!

[akili]

I voted for Wake, but that's mostly because Iowa (the state) doesn't appeal to me at all. Also, I loved Wake!

Have you asked them for an extension so you can come visit?

[traehekat]

I voted for Wake, but that's mostly because Iowa (the state) doesn't appeal to me at all. Also, I loved Wake!

Have you asked them for an extension so you can come visit?

I haven't, think I should give it a shot?

[Rock Chalk]

.

[kalvano]

Ask Wake for an extension (yes, it's worth a shot. Tell them you need to visit and arrange a time with them.)

Visit Wake.

Realize how awesome it is.

Withdraw from Iowa.

[akili]

I voted for Wake, but that's mostly because Iowa (the state) doesn't appeal to me at all. Also, I loved Wake!

Have you asked them for an extension so you can come visit?

I haven't, think I should give it a shot?

I definitely think so. They obviously want you to come, it's at least worth a try! I was very impressed by the Wake Forest campus and staff. It made a difference for me!

[jlnoa0915]

Say it ain't so traehekat, you know Wake is where its at

[Nicholasnickynic]

I mean if you want to work in chicago and be close to your family...

[najumobi]

i can't believe this poll is virtually even. iowa is ranked higher, but that doesn't really mean anything. you're definitely not gaining any prestige by picking iowa over wake, so the ~50k difference would just be a waste. if you really preferred being closer to family and chicago then i'd say go with iowa, but since you have no good personal reason to be inclined to go to one school over the other and they both have about equal job placement, pick wake since it's cheaper.

[tropskys]

i can't believe this poll is virtually even. iowa is ranked higher, but that doesn't really mean anything. you're definitely not gaining any prestige by picking iowa over wake, so the ~50k difference would just be a waste. if you really preferred being closer to family and chicago then i'd say go with iowa, but since you have no good personal reason to be inclined to go to one school over the other and they both have about equal job placement, pick wake since it's cheaper.

equal job placement doesnt necessarily mean equal job placement in the area the OP would like to work. sounds like you really like Iowa and were swayed to Wake by money? either way i agree with above posters, do what you can to visit wake before making a choice.

[JOThompson]

Visit both schools if you can. I wasn't seriously interested in Iowa until the ASD, which was an excellent experience for me.

That said, I think your choice should mainly revolve around the twin factors of location and debt. If you wouldn't be happy working anywhere other than the midwest, then Iowa may be worth the extra cost. I'd still be wary though, as I don't think that the educational quality or difference in job prospects justifies that much more debt. There's not much of a lay prestige gap between the two schools either IMO.

[najumobi]

i can't believe this poll is virtually even. iowa is ranked higher, but that doesn't really mean anything. you're definitely not gaining any prestige by picking iowa over wake, so the ~50k difference would just be a waste. if you really preferred being closer to family and chicago then i'd say go with iowa, but since you have no good personal reason to be inclined to go to one school over the other and they both have about equal job placement, pick wake since it's cheaper.

equal job placement doesnt necessarily mean equal job placement in the area the OP would like to work. sounds like you really like Iowa and were swayed to Wake by money? either way i agree with above posters, do what you can to visit wake before making a choice.

by area do you mean location? i got the sense that OP didn't prefer one location over the other. he gave pros for both.

[kalvano]

What do you want to do for practice? Wake has a wicked litigation program.

[traehekat]

What do you want to do for practice? Wake has a wicked litigation program.

No preference, as of now. All I know is that I'm going to have a lot of debt no matter what, so I want to give myself a shot at making bank for a few years at a large firm in order to pay off a large chunk of the debt.

The region preference is tough, and I think this is what it will come down to. It's not that I flat out don't care where I live, but that both regions have different advantages that seem to make it a wash (like what najumobi said). I've lived in the southwest Chicago suburbs my entire life, and this is where my family is. I like the city of Chicago and I wouldn't mind working here. That said, I also wouldn't mind being in a warmer climate and a different part of the country in general. My top choices at the start of my cycle were UIUC and UNC, actually, so my current situation pretty much reflects that split in regional preference.

Right now, I am just trying to figure out whether I will have more opportunities as an Iowa or Wake Forest graduate in the respective regions. It seems like there will be more jobs available to me as an Iowa graduate (due their expanded region), but there will also be more competition for those jobs (nearly everyone in the Midwest wants Chicago, after all). Does that make sense?

[najumobi]

What do you want to do for practice? Wake has a wicked litigation program.

No preference, as of now. All I know is that I'm going to have a lot of debt no matter what, so I want to give myself a shot at making bank for a few years at a large firm in order to pay off a large chunk of the debt.

The region preference is tough, and I think this is what it will come down to. It's not that I flat out don't care where I live, but that both regions have different advantages that seem to make it a wash (like what najumobi said). I've lived in the southwest Chicago suburbs my entire life, and this is where my family is. I like the city of Chicago and I wouldn't mind working here. That said, I also wouldn't mind being in a warmer climate and a different part of the country in general. My top choices at the start of my cycle were UIUC and UNC, actually, so my current situation pretty much reflects that split in regional preference.

Right now, I am just trying to figure out whether I will have more opportunities as an Iowa or Wake Forest graduate in the respective regions. It seems like there will be more jobs available to me as an Iowa graduate (due their expanded region), but there will also be more competition for those jobs (nearly everyone in the Midwest wants Chicago, after all). Does that make sense?

what you say makes sense. however, i have a feeling the root of your troubles comes from you believing iowa due to its higher ranking is offering something wake isn't. i just don't see that being the case. from the most recent data, 25% of 2009 grads of both schools landed in biglaw or federal clerkships. if you are trying to get the most value (job opportunity) for what you put in (money), wake is the clear choice. if you have any regional preference for the midwest whatsoever, or think that being in the midwest will give you some sort of advantage that isn't protrayed in nlj250 or federal clerkship data then pick iowa.

[Nicholasnickynic]

Wake faces a lot less competition.

Just UNC (which they are peers)

and Duke (many of whom go outside of NC). (there are of course 4 or 5 3rd and 4th tier NC schools, but they pose little threat to Wake Job-wise).

Since chicago is a legal hotspot with lots of schools competing for opportunities to work there, I'd take wake.

[traehekat]

Visited Iowa again yesterday, didn't help my decision at all. Everyone was friendly and helpful and the apartment I looked at seems pretty solid/affordable. I won't lie, I was kind of hoping I would just see some Nazi rally or something and I could just close the door on Iowa. Alas, the school is still golden.

Going to deposit at both schools, I think. A visit to Wake Forest should be in order very soon.

[MoS]

I like iowa, and I will be going there in the fall. But with a $47k difference in cost for you and no real preference for one location over the other, I think Wake is the smart move.

[malfurion]

How sure are you that you will be given in-state tuition at Iowa for 2L and 3L years? The articles on here make it sound like it's pretty tough to get residency status. If you end up having to pay out-of-state at Iowa all three years that would make it quite a bit more expensive than Wake. Personally I'd go with Wake either way, but the location/environment difference would be huge for me so I'm a bit biased.

[JOThompson]

How sure are you that you will be given in-state tuition at Iowa for 2L and 3L years? The articles on here make it sound like it's pretty tough to get residency status. If you end up having to pay out-of-state at Iowa all three years that would make it quite a bit more expensive than Wake. Personally I'd go with Wake either way, but the location/environment difference would be huge for me so I'm a bit biased.

According to the panelists at the Iowa ASD, nearly everyone who wants RA/TA ends up receiving it.

[XxSpyKEx]

Okay, so... things have become a little more complicated. Maybe. I was all set to head down to Iowa tomorrow morning, tour apartments, and put down my deposit in person. Then Wake Forest comes through this afternoon with a pretty decent scholarship. Here are the numbers...

Iowa (assuming about $15,000 per year for COL)
$42,922 + $24,154(x2) + $15,000(x3) = $136,230

Wake Forest (assuming about $15,000 per year for COL)
$37,230(x3) + $15,000(x3) - $67,500 = $89,190

This is a difference of $47,040

I would be happy in either region (Iowa is closer to family, closer to Chicago where I would be happy working; Wake Forest is in North Carolina, where the weather is warmer and there are some growing markets). Because each school would still leave me with a considerable amount of debt, I am concerned about which school will give me the greatest chance at landing a job at a large firm.

My thought is that Iowa is obviously a better school, but does it really matter considering they are both rather regional? I loved the environment and students at Iowa when I visited. In fact, I love everything about the school except the price. Everything I have heard about Wake Forest has been great, but I haven't visited and I don't have time to between now and Monday (when I have to notify them if I am accepting the scholarship).

So, am I crazy for even still considering Iowa at this point? I will admit, my reservations seem to be stemming from the fact I am, deep down, a bit of a prestige whore. Iowa has always been ranked considerably higher than Wake Forest... but does it really matter?! Please help!

Are you sure you can get in-state at Iowa after the first year? From my experience you typically can't get establish in-state residency when you move to attend a school (even if you are living there full-time after moving). You typically need to move there and work there for X period of time (as well as file taxes in that state) prior to starting school and if you move there after starting school you can't establish residency by merely living there while attending school.

Also, are you planning on paying cash for that $136K (assuming you get in-state tuition after your first year)? How do you intend to repay that leaving UIowa? There's at least a 95% chance you won't get Chicago biglaw at all, and a pretty good shot that you won't get into Chicago at all with the current economy and how many schools are aiming for Chicago.

I posted this on another thread, and I'm sure this re-post is going to piss someone off, but here's last 3 years Chicago NALP firms hiring (which includes a lot of non-biglaw IP boutiques):

Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.

[traehekat]

XxSpyKEx - not positive, but those are numbers for 2L summer associate hires, right? That's a nice compilation there, definitely appreciate you taking the time to post it. I think the lesson to take from there, in regards to Iowa at least, is that during a good year, there seems to be room for a decent number of Iowa graduates in the Chicago biglaw market, but in a bad year, not so much.

I think I am leaning towards Wake Forest, at this point. A final decision can't be made until I visit, however. This may have to be done next weekend.

[XxSpyKEx]

XxSpyKEx - not positive, but those are numbers for 2L summer associate hires, right? That's a nice compilation there, definitely appreciate you taking the time to post it. I think the lesson to take from there, in regards to Iowa at least, is that during a good year, there seems to be room for a decent number of Iowa graduates in the Chicago biglaw market, but in a bad year, not so much.

I think I am leaning towards Wake Forest, at this point. A final decision can't be made until I visit, however. This may have to be done next weekend.

Yes, it is 2L summer associates (2008 2009 2010). Since I originally posted that I've been told that I was underestimating the competition for Chicago because I didn't include other t14s from the coasts that are moving inward to Chicago because it's brutal out in the coasts as well (such as DC, LA, etc). I guess I also didn't think of schools like Iowa. That is an awful lot of competition for 256 spots.