Texas vs. Vanderbilt vs. Cornell Forum

[jsarna1]

I am interested in gathering any thoughts on these three schools. I am from Chicago, but I don't mind moving to a different locale. I was waitlisted at UChicago, but I have no idea if I'll ever get in (probably not). I'm really interested in judicial clerkships, and from what I can gather, UT is very solid in that department. Money situation is about the same everywhere. Anyone else in a similar situation or anyone with any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[najumobi]

I am interested in gathering any thoughts on these three schools. I am from Chicago, but I don't mind moving to a different locale. I was waitlisted at UChicago, but I have no idea if I'll ever get in (probably not). I'm really interested in judicial clerkships, and from what I can gather, UT is very solid in that department. Money situation is about the same everywhere. Anyone else in a similar situation or anyone with any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

for the class of 2008, cor-nell's and texas' classes both had ~11% getting federal clerkships and vanderbilt had ~8% getting federal clerkships. i'm pretty positive it's the case that texas grads seem get more clerkships than vandy grads. not sure how you would choose between cor-nell and texas.

[soullesswonder]

Vandy - more fun than Ithaca, better placement than Texas (and recently, Cornell). Vandy's also been doing quite well in Article III clerkships lately (14% of this year's class). From what I've heard (mostly from observationalist) I also think that Vandy will get you back to Chicago if you really want it. Best placement in the NLJ 250 = win.

[najumobi]

Vandy - more fun than Ithaca, better placement than Texas (and recently, Princeton Law). Vandy's also been doing quite well in Article III clerkships lately (14% of this year's class). From what I've heard (mostly from observationalist) I also think that Vandy will get you back to Chicago if you really want it. Best placement in the NLJ 250 = win.

wow...that's a nice improvement upon previous years' federal clerkship placement.

[jsarna1]

Vandy - more fun than Ithaca, better placement than Texas (and recently, Princeton Law). Vandy's also been doing quite well in Article III clerkships lately (14% of this year's class). From what I've heard (mostly from observationalist) I also think that Vandy will get you back to Chicago if you really want it. Best placement in the NLJ 250 = win.

wow...that's a nice improvement upon previous years' federal clerkship placement.

Where did you get the 14% stat? That seems high for Vandy, and I have never seen one that high. That would definitely make things interesting... Texas had 60 clerkships out of a class of ~400 which is ~15%. The percentages for Vandy are better, but Texas sends a large number of students to BigLaw. I haven't gotten a scholarship offer from Cornell yet, just got in, but the money from Vandy and Texas is about equal. It's most likely coming down to those two. I have heard that both schools can take me back to Chicago, but Texas seems promising ITE because of the wide spectrum of opportunities in the state of Texas. I do like 7 hour drive over an 18 hour one, especially with the SO at ND.

[soullesswonder]

Vandy - more fun than Ithaca, better placement than Texas (and recently, Princeton Law). Vandy's also been doing quite well in Article III clerkships lately (14% of this year's class). From what I've heard (mostly from observationalist) I also think that Vandy will get you back to Chicago if you really want it. Best placement in the NLJ 250 = win.

wow...that's a nice improvement upon previous years' federal clerkship placement.

Where did you get the 14% stat? That seems high for Vandy, and I have never seen one that high. That would definitely make things interesting... Texas had 60 clerkships out of a class of ~400 which is ~15%. The percentages for Vandy are better, but Texas sends a large number of students to BigLaw. I haven't gotten a scholarship offer from Princeton Law yet, just got in, but the money from Vandy and Texas is about equal. It's most likely coming down to those two. I have heard that both schools can take me back to Chicago, but Texas seems promising when you're 16 and pregnant because of the wide spectrum of opportunities in the state of Texas. I do like 7 hour drive over an 18 hour one, especially with the SO at ND.

I got the 14% stat from observationalist, who provided a breakdown here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175

[najumobi]

Vandy - more fun than Ithaca, better placement than Texas (and recently, Princeton Law). Vandy's also been doing quite well in Article III clerkships lately (14% of this year's class). From what I've heard (mostly from observationalist) I also think that Vandy will get you back to Chicago if you really want it. Best placement in the NLJ 250 = win.

wow...that's a nice improvement upon previous years' federal clerkship placement.

Where did you get the 14% stat? That seems high for Vandy, and I have never seen one that high. That would definitely make things interesting... Texas had 60 clerkships out of a class of ~400 which is ~15%. The percentages for Vandy are better, but Texas sends a large number of students to BigLaw. I haven't gotten a scholarship offer from Princeton Law yet, just got in, but the money from Vandy and Texas is about equal. It's most likely coming down to those two. I have heard that both schools can take me back to Chicago, but Texas seems promising when you're 16 and pregnant because of the wide spectrum of opportunities in the state of Texas. I do like 7 hour drive over an 18 hour one, especially with the SO at ND.

I got the 14% stat from observationalist, who provided a breakdown here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175

the 28 total federal clerkship placements includes recent grads...so the number for just class of 2010 is lower. it seems observationalist didn't subtract recent grads from the 28 value when figuring out the percentage out of 195 total class of 2010 students.

[soullesswonder]

Where did you get the 14% stat? That seems high for Vandy, and I have never seen one that high. That would definitely make things interesting... Texas had 60 clerkships out of a class of ~400 which is ~15%. The percentages for Vandy are better, but Texas sends a large number of students to BigLaw. I haven't gotten a scholarship offer from Princeton Law yet, just got in, but the money from Vandy and Texas is about equal. It's most likely coming down to those two. I have heard that both schools can take me back to Chicago, but Texas seems promising when you're 16 and pregnant because of the wide spectrum of opportunities in the state of Texas. I do like 7 hour drive over an 18 hour one, especially with the SO at ND.

I got the 14% stat from observationalist, who provided a breakdown here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175

the 28 total federal clerkship placements includes recent grads...so the number for just class of 2010 is lower. it seems observationalist didn't subtract recent grads from the 28 value when figuring out the percentage out of 195 total class of 2010 students.[/quote]

C'mon, think for a minute...there will be 2010 grads who get clerkships a year or two out as well, so statistically it's a wash. We're talking about total clerkship placement, not the number of clerkships that follow immediately after 3L year. Every other school that talks about its placement rate for classes of 09 or 10 is going to include recent grads as well.

[jsarna1]

Where did you get the 14% stat? That seems high for Vandy, and I have never seen one that high. That would definitely make things interesting... Texas had 60 clerkships out of a class of ~400 which is ~15%. The percentages for Vandy are better, but Texas sends a large number of students to BigLaw. I haven't gotten a scholarship offer from Princeton Law yet, just got in, but the money from Vandy and Texas is about equal. It's most likely coming down to those two. I have heard that both schools can take me back to Chicago, but Texas seems promising when you're 16 and pregnant because of the wide spectrum of opportunities in the state of Texas. I do like 7 hour drive over an 18 hour one, especially with the SO at ND.

I got the 14% stat from observationalist, who provided a breakdown here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175

the 28 total federal clerkship placements includes recent grads...so the number for just class of 2010 is lower. it seems observationalist didn't subtract recent grads from the 28 value when figuring out the percentage out of 195 total class of 2010 students.

C'mon, think for a minute...there will be 2010 grads who get clerkships a year or two out as well, so statistically it's a wash. We're talking about total clerkship placement, not the number of clerkships that follow immediately after 3L year. Every other school that talks about its placement rate for classes of 09 or 10 is going to include recent grads as well.[/quote]

Texas has 60 from their current 3L class, which I found to be pretty impressive. They also have an alum clerking for Kennedy this next term.

[zanyventer]

wouldn't go to cornell even on a full ride. i think at face value, it's a toss-up between texas and vandy. however, i wouldn't count on texas to give you a leg up in hiring and/or clerkships. my impression is that you will be a $ sign at texas, a much larger school, in that anyone that succeeds there definitely won't have been helped much by the school, and you will have more personalized attention to your goals at vandy.

[najumobi]

C'mon, think for a minute...there will be 2010 grads who get clerkships a year or two out as well, so statistically it's a wash. We're talking about total clerkship placement, not the number of clerkships that follow immediately after 3L year. Every other school that talks about its placement rate for classes of 09 or 10 is going to include recent grads as well.

ah ic. thanks.

[soullesswonder]

Where did you get the 14% stat? That seems high for Vandy, and I have never seen one that high. That would definitely make things interesting... Texas had 60 clerkships out of a class of ~400 which is ~15%. The percentages for Vandy are better, but Texas sends a large number of students to BigLaw. I haven't gotten a scholarship offer from Princeton Law yet, just got in, but the money from Vandy and Texas is about equal. It's most likely coming down to those two. I have heard that both schools can take me back to Chicago, but Texas seems promising when you're 16 and pregnant because of the wide spectrum of opportunities in the state of Texas. I do like 7 hour drive over an 18 hour one, especially with the SO at ND.

I got the 14% stat from observationalist, who provided a breakdown here:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175

the 28 total federal clerkship placements includes recent grads...so the number for just class of 2010 is lower. it seems observationalist didn't subtract recent grads from the 28 value when figuring out the percentage out of 195 total class of 2010 students.

C'mon, think for a minute...there will be 2010 grads who get clerkships a year or two out as well, so statistically it's a wash. We're talking about total clerkship placement, not the number of clerkships that follow immediately after 3L year. Every other school that talks about its placement rate for classes of 09 or 10 is going to include recent grads as well.

Texas has 60 from their current 3L class, which I found to be pretty impressive. They also have an alum clerking for Kennedy this next term.[/quote]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but are you sure that's just current 3Ls with Article III and not total Article III placement for this hiring cycle or all 3L clerkship gigs? For Article IIIs Vandy's total went from 18 in '09 to 28 in '10. Texas was at 46 in '09, and while 60 in '10 seems believable enough, if that stat doesn't include recent grads the true number might be 70-75, which sounds like a HUGE jump.

[woeisme]

There are a few of us from Chicago here at Cornell. I chose Cornell over UT (I didn't have interest in and therefore didn't apply to Vandy). For me, it was about maximizing prestige/opportunities and personal fit. Cornell just made sense for me. Out of the three, it's certainly the most prestigious nationally, and certainly in Chicago. I'd really only suggest going to Vandy or UT if (1) you have some reason to believe you'd be very unhappy at Cornell or (2) Vandy/UT will cost you significantly less and you're excited about the idea of working in the south.

A visit to all the schools may be in order too. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

[soullesswonder]

There are a few of us from Chicago here at Princeton Law. I chose Princeton Law over UT (I didn't have interest in and therefore didn't apply to Vandy). For me, it was about maximizing prestige/opportunities and personal fit. Princeton Law just made sense for me. Out of the three, it's certainly the most prestigious nationally, and certainly in Chicago. I'd really only suggest going to Vandy or UT if you (1) you have some reason to believe you'd be very unhappy at Princeton Law or (2) Vandy/UT will cost you significantly less and you're excited about the idea of working in the south.

A visit to all the schools may be in order too. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

Vandy outpaced Cornell by almost 6% in NLJ250 hiring last year, despite not being in close proximity to any of the big four legal markets (NY, LA, DC, NYC). In no way does going to Vandy limit your options to the south, or even put you in the category of needing to be top quarter to leave the region.

[woeisme]

There are a few of us from Chicago here at Princeton Law. I chose Princeton Law over UT (I didn't have interest in and therefore didn't apply to Vandy). For me, it was about maximizing prestige/opportunities and personal fit. Princeton Law just made sense for me. Out of the three, it's certainly the most prestigious nationally, and certainly in Chicago. I'd really only suggest going to Vandy or UT if you (1) you have some reason to believe you'd be very unhappy at Princeton Law or (2) Vandy/UT will cost you significantly less and you're excited about the idea of working in the south.

A visit to all the schools may be in order too. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

Vandy outpaced Princeton Law by almost 6% in NLJ250 hiring last year, despite not being in close proximity to any of the big four legal markets (NY, LA, DC, NYC). In no way does going to Vandy limit your options to the south, or even put you in the category of needing to be top quarter to leave the region.

NLJ250 is your metric? Cornell just gets more prestigious firm jobs and clerkships. Vanderbilt is among the best regional schools in the nation, and its numbers have increased substantially in recent years. I'm not saying that Vandy necessarily limits you to the south, I'm saying that it's just not a sure-thing. More importantly, my argument is that Cornell will place better in Chicago than Vandy will (assuming mediocre to poor grades).

[soullesswonder]

There are a few of us from Chicago here at Princeton Law. I chose Princeton Law over UT (I didn't have interest in and therefore didn't apply to Vandy). For me, it was about maximizing prestige/opportunities and personal fit. Princeton Law just made sense for me. Out of the three, it's certainly the most prestigious nationally, and certainly in Chicago. I'd really only suggest going to Vandy or UT if you (1) you have some reason to believe you'd be very unhappy at Princeton Law or (2) Vandy/UT will cost you significantly less and you're excited about the idea of working in the south.

A visit to all the schools may be in order too. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

Vandy outpaced Princeton Law by almost 6% in NLJ250 hiring last year, despite not being in close proximity to any of the big four legal markets (NY, LA, DC, NYC). In no way does going to Vandy limit your options to the south, or even put you in the category of needing to be top quarter to leave the region.

NLJ250 is your metric? Princeton Law just gets more prestigious firm jobs and clerkships. Vanderbilt is among the best regional schools in the nation, and its numbers have increased substantially in recent years. I'm not saying that Vandy necessarily limits you to the south, I'm saying that it's just not a sure-thing. More importantly, my argument is that Princeton Law will place better in Chicago than Vandy will (assuming mediocre to poor grades).

Yeah, in a down economy I think NLJ250 placement (i.e. having a decent paying job) is a metric that has more relevance for the average student. Also, I know you're at Cornell right now and I don't want to completely discount whatever anecdotal evidence you have, but from looking at the placement stats I don't think mediocre to poor grades will get you to Chicago from either Vandy or Cornell.

[woeisme]

There are a few of us from Chicago here at Princeton Law. I chose Princeton Law over UT (I didn't have interest in and therefore didn't apply to Vandy). For me, it was about maximizing prestige/opportunities and personal fit. Princeton Law just made sense for me. Out of the three, it's certainly the most prestigious nationally, and certainly in Chicago. I'd really only suggest going to Vandy or UT if you (1) you have some reason to believe you'd be very unhappy at Princeton Law or (2) Vandy/UT will cost you significantly less and you're excited about the idea of working in the south.

A visit to all the schools may be in order too. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

Vandy outpaced Princeton Law by almost 6% in NLJ250 hiring last year, despite not being in close proximity to any of the big four legal markets (NY, LA, DC, NYC). In no way does going to Vandy limit your options to the south, or even put you in the category of needing to be top quarter to leave the region.

NLJ250 is your metric? Princeton Law just gets more prestigious firm jobs and clerkships. Vanderbilt is among the best regional schools in the nation, and its numbers have increased substantially in recent years. I'm not saying that Vandy necessarily limits you to the south, I'm saying that it's just not a sure-thing. More importantly, my argument is that Princeton Law will place better in Chicago than Vandy will (assuming mediocre to poor grades).

Yeah, in a down economy I think NLJ250 placement (i.e. having a decent paying job) is a metric that has more relevance for the average student. Also, I know you're at Princeton Law right now and I don't want to completely discount whatever anecdotal evidence you have, but from looking at the placement stats I don't think mediocre to poor grades will get you to Chicago from either Vandy or Princeton Law.

I was talking more about in a normal economy, really. But yeah, in any economy I think you'd have to do better coming from Vandy in order to get Chicago. OP should talk to some attorneys (if he knows any) and get their advice.

[jsarna1]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but are you sure that's just current 3Ls with Article III and not total Article III placement for this hiring cycle or all 3L clerkship gigs? For Article IIIs Vandy's total went from 18 in '09 to 28 in '10. Texas was at 46 in '09, and while 60 in '10 seems believable enough, if that stat doesn't include recent grads the true number might be 70-75, which sounds like a HUGE jump.

Texas hired a UChicago prof who took over their clerkship program and they have been pouring money and resources into it per them. The jump seems to reflect this, and at the ASW they seem to expect this trend to continue. Vanderbilt has 8 COA clerks this year and Texas has 20. I do like that the BigLaw prospects from Vandy seem to be higher. It seems that Texas' constitutional law program is better than Vandy's... any thoughts on this?

[Esc]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but are you sure that's just current 3Ls with Article III and not total Article III placement for this hiring cycle or all 3L clerkship gigs? For Article IIIs Vandy's total went from 18 in '09 to 28 in '10. Texas was at 46 in '09, and while 60 in '10 seems believable enough, if that stat doesn't include recent grads the true number might be 70-75, which sounds like a HUGE jump.

Texas hired a UChicago prof who took over their clerkship program and they have been pouring money and resources into it per them. The jump seems to reflect this, and at the ASW they seem to expect this trend to continue. Vanderbilt has 8 COA clerks this year and Texas has 20. I do like that the BigLaw prospects from Vandy seem to be higher. It seems that Texas' constitutional law program is better than Vandy's... any thoughts on this?

Prof. Kadens is quite a powerhouse. One correction is that only about 45 of the 60 clerks are Article III. 19 of those are COA, the rest district. The other 15 are mostly bankruptcy judges, with a few state supreme court judges thrown in.

Those are all 3Ls though - I have no idea how many alums are clerking.

There are a ton of Con Law classes offered here, with some very esteemed profs. Dunno how it compares to Vandy.

[gogators]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but are you sure that's just current 3Ls with Article III and not total Article III placement for this hiring cycle or all 3L clerkship gigs? For Article IIIs Vandy's total went from 18 in '09 to 28 in '10. Texas was at 46 in '09, and while 60 in '10 seems believable enough, if that stat doesn't include recent grads the true number might be 70-75, which sounds like a HUGE jump.

Texas hired a UChicago prof who took over their clerkship program and they have been pouring money and resources into it per them. The jump seems to reflect this, and at the ASW they seem to expect this trend to continue. Vanderbilt has 8 COA clerks this year and Texas has 20. I do like that the BigLaw prospects from Vandy seem to be higher. It seems that Texas' constitutional law program is better than Vandy's... any thoughts on this?

Vandy con law program has some powerhouses like Blumstein, Sherry, Rubin, and Lisa Bressman. Vandy did a similar thing by hiring Professor Michael Bressman to truly press clerkships and the rise in stats clearly shows this just like the situation at UT. Also, when looking at raw numbers and not %'s that UT's class is pretty damn big compared to Vandy.

On a slightly different note, I basically I had this same decision last year and choose Vandy. I visited Cornell several times last summer and have always been a huge UT fan but the atmosphere and student body at Vandy is incredible. After visiting several other law schools I've never seen a more relaxed and fun environment where everyone knows each other and genuinely enjoys hanging out, discussing the law, etc. I've talked to many of my friends at other law schools and they all seem to convey the notion that its all like a job, with everyone commuting and no one knowing anybody else. I personally know virtually everyone in both sections, and most of the 2 and 3L's and I'm certainly not a huge social butterfly. I encourage you if possible to come to the ASW next week or at least visit before making a final decision.

[jsarna1]

I went to UT's ASW last weekend, and just came back from Nashville. I was hoping one of the two would suck so my decision would be easier... didn't happen. I am going to have a phone call with Prof. Bressman, so hopefully he can give me some additional information. I really liked the atmospheres at both schools, and the student bodies are also really cool... or at least seem that way.

I would like to thank everyone so far for their input... it's definitely great to hear a variety of opinions! And if anyone has any additional information, I would gladly welcome it! It's all very much appreciated!

[woeisme]

I went to UT's ASW last weekend, and just came back from Nashville. I was hoping one of the two would suck so my decision would be easier... didn't happen. I am going to have a phone call with Prof. Bressman, so hopefully he can give me some additional information. I really liked the atmospheres at both schools, and the student bodies are also really cool... or at least seem that way.

I would like to thank everyone so far for their input... it's definitely great to hear a variety of opinions! And if anyone has any additional information, I would gladly welcome it! It's all very much appreciated!

Out of curiosity, why isn't Cornell the front runner here? I'm sensing you want (a) Chicago; (b) strong Conlaw program; and (c) clerkship prospects. I'm just confused why you seem to be focused so heavily on UT and Vandy. Did I miss something?

[jsarna1]

From resources I have checked out, it seems that Texas has a better con law program than Cornell or Vandy. I don't particularly care if I ever work in NYC, and the Ithaca winters are something I'm not a fan of, especially coming from South Bend winters. I also haven't received any aid info from Cornell yet, and since it's coming down to the wire here, if that doesn't come soon, then I can't realistically attend.

[woeisme]

From resources I have checked out, it seems that Texas has a better con law program than Cornell or Vandy. I don't particularly care if I ever work in NYC, and the Ithaca winters are something I'm not a fan of, especially coming from South Bend winters. I also haven't received any aid info from Cornell yet, and since it's coming down to the wire here, if that doesn't come soon, then I can't realistically attend.

Well, the winters aren't much different here than in Chicago (they're arguably more tolerable, actually). But yeah, if you're only willing to come with financial aid, that's a valid point that I overlooked. You should let Cornell know about your money from University of Texas. I know in past years Cornell has taken Texas scholarships into consideration and often threw some money to lure cross-admits. As far as I know, though, they don't really take Vanderbilt's scholarships into consideration (presumably under the theory that Vandy tends to more loosely throw money around). Good luck!

ETA: I can't speak to Texas's constitutional law program, but I'd be pretty surprised if it really were much better than Cornell's. Cornell has a number of very highly regarded Constitutional Law professors. Actually, hold on, I feel like I saw something on this somewhere. I'll edit later.

[soullesswonder]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but are you sure that's just current 3Ls with Article III and not total Article III placement for this hiring cycle or all 3L clerkship gigs? For Article IIIs Vandy's total went from 18 in '09 to 28 in '10. Texas was at 46 in '09, and while 60 in '10 seems believable enough, if that stat doesn't include recent grads the true number might be 70-75, which sounds like a HUGE jump.

Texas hired a UChicago prof who took over their clerkship program and they have been pouring money and resources into it per them. The jump seems to reflect this, and at the ASW they seem to expect this trend to continue. Vanderbilt has 8 COA clerks this year and Texas has 20. I do like that the BigLaw prospects from Vandy seem to be higher. It seems that Texas' constitutional law program is better than Vandy's... any thoughts on this?

Prof. Kadens is quite a powerhouse. One correction is that only about 45 of the 60 clerks are Article III. 19 of those are COA, the rest district. The other 15 are mostly bankruptcy judges, with a few state supreme court judges thrown in.

Those are all 3Ls though - I have no idea how many alums are clerking.

There are a ton of Con Law classes offered here, with some very esteemed profs. Dunno how it compares to Vandy.

Thanks for the correction. Texas has what? about 400 grads? That would put about 11% of 3Ls with Article III clerkships. observationalist said that he expected about 10% of Vandy 3Ls to have federal clerkships, so the two would appear to be very close.