Notre Dame (66k) or Cornell (full price)? Forum

[Blount1046]

I have narrowed down my choices to Notre Dame ($22,000 a year) and Cornell (full price). I visited both campuses and thought they both were top notch. I am Irish and Catholic and have wanted to attend ND my entire life, but never thought I would have the opportunity to. However, I also did not think I would ever have the opportunity to attend a school such as Cornell, and want to put myself in the best position to be successful. I would like to work in Chicago or New York when I graduate. If possible, I would like to do "big law" for the first few years out, but ultimately, I would like to be a judge. Is Cornell worth the full price and $100,000+ more in tuition than Notre Dame? Which school do you think I should attend?

[eaters333]

Notre Dame

[UFMatt]

ND places well into both of those markets, especially Chicago. Given your Irish Catholic background, I think ND would be a sensible choice. Plug that extra $100,000 into a loan repayment calculator, and allow the horror to set in.

[thebookcollector]

I'd personally go to Notre Dame over Cornell. Although Cornell is higher ranked, I don't think it'd be worth the extra debt, especially since Notre Dame's alumni network tends to be more proactive than that of other schools.

As an Irish Catholic, I understand your Notre Dame interest... it is a great community, and you'd probably fit in very well.

[saltoftheearth]

Cornell

[danidancer]

I'm facing a similar decision (Fordham scholarship vs. potential T14 WL acceptance), and leaning towards Fordham assuming I don't get any significant need-based aid from the hypothetical T14. The monetary difference between Notre Dame and Cornell in your instance is $100,000, possibly more. That's nothing to sneeze at! I really think the freedom of being less in debt from a great school like Notre Dame is hard to pass up in this instance. Have you visited both?

[cahesu]

Notre Dame... you've wanted to go all your life and you will regret it if you don't take that opportunity.

Cornell, on the other hand, you have no real attachment to.

Besides, I hear from a "friend" around campus that the football team will be better soon

[fortissimo]

Wasn't ND completely owned at OCI? (top 15% getting locked out)

Cornell didn't do so hot either when compared to other top 14, but I thought it fared significantly better than ND at OCI?

[sanpiero]

ND

[gossipgirl]

It's all about job prospects. Consider yourself at median at both schools. Which would you rather be at? I'm not sure what the correct answer to this question is but 66k is not a lot of money if the employment prospects at median are different for both schools.

I really don't think the fact that it's been a dream school of yours should be a huge factor, even if its for religious/cultural reasons. In this economy, you should definitely primarily value job prospects (unless you'll be an emotional wreck anywhere other than ND).

[Blount1046]

I'm facing a similar decision (Fordham scholarship vs. potential T14 WL acceptance), and leaning towards Fordham assuming I don't get any significant need-based aid from the hypothetical T14. The monetary difference between Notre Dame and Cornell in your instance is $100,000, possibly more. That's nothing to sneeze at! I really think the freedom of being less in debt from a great school like Notre Dame is hard to pass up in this instance. Have you visited both?

Thanks for the input! Yes, I actually visited both within a week of each other. I thought both had top notch facilities, but I enjoyed the Notre Dame campus more and felt more comfortable there.

[fortissimo]

It's all about job prospects. Consider yourself at median at both schools. Which would you rather be at? I'm not sure what the correct answer to this question is but 66k is not a lot of money if the employment prospects at median are different for both schools.

I really don't think the fact that it's been a dream school of yours should be a huge factor, even if its for religious/cultural reasons. In this economy, you should definitely primarily value job prospects (unless you'll be an emotional wreck anywhere other than ND).

Median at every school outside of HYS didn't fare that well at OCI this year, so that doesn't really help. Biglaw odds at Cornell are, for sure, a lot better, but people at Columbia median were striking out this year. (I know people above median at Chicago who struck out too.)

I guess the more narrow question is, what secondary markets do you want to work in/mass mail if you are at median?

[gossipgirl]

It's all about job prospects. Consider yourself at median at both schools. Which would you rather be at? I'm not sure what the correct answer to this question is but 66k is not a lot of money if the employment prospects at median are different for both schools.

I really don't think the fact that it's been a dream school of yours should be a huge factor, even if its for religious/cultural reasons. In this economy, you should definitely primarily value job prospects (unless you'll be an emotional wreck anywhere other than ND).

Median at every school outside of HYS didn't fare that well at OCI this year, so that doesn't really help. Biglaw odds at Cornell are, for sure, a lot better, but people at Columbia median were striking out this year. (I know people above median at Chicago who struck out too.)

I guess the more narrow question is, what secondary markets do you want to work in/mass mail if you are at median?

I've spoken with Chicago career services about this exact question. They categorically deny that the prevailing trend for OCI last year was that Chicago students at median were "striking out." While they admit that there are anomalies (like there are every year), they say that their data suggests that while hiring was down, even students below median were receiving offers (albeit fewer).

I've heard what you're saying before on TLS so my question for you is: Is Chicago career services bullshitting me or are you using anomalies to justify a trend?

[Blount1046]

It's all about job prospects. Consider yourself at median at both schools. Which would you rather be at? I'm not sure what the correct answer to this question is but 66k is not a lot of money if the employment prospects at median are different for both schools.

I really don't think the fact that it's been a dream school of yours should be a huge factor, even if its for religious/cultural reasons. In this economy, you should definitely primarily value job prospects (unless you'll be an emotional wreck anywhere other than ND).

Median at every school outside of HYS didn't fare that well at OCI this year, so that doesn't really help. Biglaw odds at Cornell are, for sure, a lot better, but people at Columbia median were striking out this year. (I know people above median at Chicago who struck out too.)

I guess the more narrow question is, what secondary markets do you want to work in/mass mail if you are at median?

As far as markets go, I do not really have my heart set on any region. My fiance has a career that travels well. I like the idea of working in a big city, and think that a big city would be better for job opportunities. However, I do not want to be living in an apartment my entire life, and would like to have a house with some land by the time I have children, even if that means commuting. I would be happy in any market that really gives me that opportunity.

[danidancer]

It's all about job prospects. Consider yourself at median at both schools. Which would you rather be at? I'm not sure what the correct answer to this question is but 66k is not a lot of money if the employment prospects at median are different for both schools.

I really don't think the fact that it's been a dream school of yours should be a huge factor, even if its for religious/cultural reasons. In this economy, you should definitely primarily value job prospects (unless you'll be an emotional wreck anywhere other than ND).

The difference isn't $66K though. Cornell's annual cost of attendance (in 09/10) is $67,250 while Notre Dame's is $55,720. That's a nearly $35K difference in their sticker costs alone! ie, choosing Cornell would put OP more than $100K deeper in debt than choosing Notre Dame, a school OP seems to like much much more. My vote still goes with ND, but it really is hard turning your back on the T14!

[jcunni5]

Cornell

you'll still have to take a bunch of loans out at ND and they got screwed at OCI like LR people getting shut out, every school got screwed but Cornell is the much better investment

I'm an Irish Catholic from Chicago area so I totally get the ND thing tho

[fortissimo]

It's all about job prospects. Consider yourself at median at both schools. Which would you rather be at? I'm not sure what the correct answer to this question is but 66k is not a lot of money if the employment prospects at median are different for both schools.

I really don't think the fact that it's been a dream school of yours should be a huge factor, even if its for religious/cultural reasons. In this economy, you should definitely primarily value job prospects (unless you'll be an emotional wreck anywhere other than ND).

Median at every school outside of HYS didn't fare that well at OCI this year, so that doesn't really help. Biglaw odds at Cornell are, for sure, a lot better, but people at Columbia median were striking out this year. (I know people above median at Chicago who struck out too.)

I guess the more narrow question is, what secondary markets do you want to work in/mass mail if you are at median?

I've spoken with Chicago career services about this exact question. They categorically deny that the prevailing trend for OCI last year was that Chicago students at median were "striking out." While they admit that there are anomalies (like there are every year), they say that their data suggests that while hiring was down, even students below median were receiving offers (albeit fewer).

I've heard what you're saying before on TLS so my question for you is: Is Chicago career services bullshitting me or are you using anomalies to justify a trend?

This information isn't perfect,since it takes into account only permanent offers and it doesn't pertain to this most recent OCI, but this is hard data from the class of 2009.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

These people had OCI in 2007, when the economy was a lot better. A few were no offered/deferred, but they still counted "deferred" people under these stats. I somehow don't think the economy improved that much since they were no offered (after 2L SA, so maybe fall 2008/early 2009) to fall 2009 (most recent OCI) to see a big increase in biglaw placement for the class of 2011. It wouldn't make sense for firms to no offer people they have trained/spent a ton of money on, and then hire a bunch of newbies in a period that spans less than one year. OCI 2009 was supposedly "the worst" in a long, long time for the legal sector. So honestly? I am not exactly sure about those at median (although if OCI 2009 was the worst in a period of over 25 years I wouldn't be surprised if median were locked out), but I bet that people below median placing at OCI 2009 were "anomalies" rather than the norm. People at median definitely have options, but they definitely shouldn't rely on OCI.

[gossipgirl]

This information isn't perfect,since it takes into account only permanent offers and it doesn't pertain to this most recent OCI, but this is hard data from the class of 2009.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

These people had OCI in 2007, when the economy was a lot better. A few were no offered/deferred, but they still counted "deferred" people under these stats. I somehow don't think the economy improved that much since they were no offered (after 2L SA, so maybe fall 2008/early 2009) to fall 2009 (most recent OCI) to see a big increase in biglaw placement for the class of 2011. It wouldn't make sense for firms to no offer people they have trained, and then hire a bunch of newbies in a period that spans less than one year. OCI 2009 was supposedly "the worst" in a long, long time for the legal sector. So honestly? I am not exactly sure about those at median (although if OCI 2009 was the worst in a period of over 25 years I wouldn't be surprised if median were locked out), but I bet that people below median placing at OCI 2009 were "anomalies" rather than the norm.

Taking into account Chicagoans who go into clerkships (in which Chicago places very well), top public interest jobs, and other opportunities of interest that are not included in this figure, the 53.1% is not as bad as you make it sound. I understand that OCI 2009 was bad but 1. The number of 2L interns has to be greater than the number who began as first year associates, 2. You need to account for all the people who got offers but chose to work in something else, and 3. You need to account for people who took equally as prestigious internships in other fields. Under this scenario, I cannot imagine that being median at Chicago is even close to bad news for the typical student. I think this is a tough question though (since we can only look at figures like this and the words of career services) and so I'm just trying to get your thoughts instead of trying to inflammatory.

As far as Cornell vs Notre Dame, this chart shows 41.5% vs. 28.8%. For me, this seems like a considerable difference in placement and in 2L OCI likelihood. Again, I would have to couple this information with career services, but if OP's goal is big law in a big city, I think Cornell is a great choice. The return on investment (even if it is 100k more) seems to be more likely higher at Cornell.

[fortissimo]

This information isn't perfect,since it takes into account only permanent offers and it doesn't pertain to this most recent OCI, but this is hard data from the class of 2009.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

These people had OCI in 2007, when the economy was a lot better. A few were no offered/deferred, but they still counted "deferred" people under these stats. I somehow don't think the economy improved that much since they were no offered (after 2L SA, so maybe fall 2008/early 2009) to fall 2009 (most recent OCI) to see a big increase in biglaw placement for the class of 2011. It wouldn't make sense for firms to no offer people they have trained, and then hire a bunch of newbies in a period that spans less than one year. OCI 2009 was supposedly "the worst" in a long, long time for the legal sector. So honestly? I am not exactly sure about those at median (although if OCI 2009 was the worst in a period of over 25 years I wouldn't be surprised if median were locked out), but I bet that people below median placing at OCI 2009 were "anomalies" rather than the norm.

Taking into account Chicagoans who go into clerkships (in which Chicago places very well), top public interest jobs, and other opportunities of interest that are not included in this figure, the 53.1% is not as bad as you make it sound. I understand that OCI 2009 was bad but 1. The number of 2L interns has to be greater than the number who began as first year associates, 2. You need to account for all the people who got offers but chose to work in something else, and 3. You need to account for people who took equally as prestigious internships in other fields. Under this scenario, I cannot imagine that being median at Chicago is even close to bad news for the typical student. I think this is a tough question though (since we can only look at figures like this and the words of career services) and so I'm just trying to get your thoughts instead of trying to inflammatory.

As far as Cornell vs Notre Dame, this chart shows 41.5% vs. 28.8%. For me, this seems like a considerable difference in placement and in 2L OCI likelihood. Again, I would have to couple this information with career services, but if OP's goal is big law in a big city, I think Cornell is a great choice. The return on investment (even if it is 100k more) seems to be more likely higher at Cornell.

I think median does fine, just not necessarily at OCI. As for the clerkship stats, I think a lot of schools' clerkship placement stats have gone up this year. It used to be that only the top of the class landed clerkships. Unless many of these people who are placing into clerkships this year were from the top of their class and "no-offered" at top firms, then perhaps getting biglaw at OCI is, in some circumstances at least, becoming harder than landing a clerkship (although tbh it is probably unlikely that someone locked out of OCI 2008 would land a clerkship). I would probably still go to Cornell over ND, but I wouldn't rely on OCI if I were median at either one.

[09042014]

100K debt at ND, or 200K at Cornell.

If OCI 2011 is like OCI 2009, you've got a very small shot at getting a big law job from ND. Nobody was safe. LR Top 10% weren't getting offers. Cornell was bad, but it seems like top 1/3 were safe, and above median gave you a shot but was no guarantee.

I think Cornell is the better risk if you are looking for big law.

But if you are happy slugging it out in Chicago shitlaw for 50K a year, ND isn't a bad choice. You'll have less debt. And there is a 50-50% shot you'll end up there from Cornell anyway.

If you are looking for Chicago city jobs, ND might be a better choice anyway.

[Blount1046]

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate your different perspectives. Prior to the creation of this thread, I had made the decision to go to Notre Dame, and just wanted to hear different ideas before I finalized my decision. I am going to attend Notre Dame next year. I understand that I will face a bit more difficult job prospects, but I would be much happier at Notre Dame, and still feel that I will have plenty of quality options coming from Notre Dame. Thank you again for your input, I wish everyone the best of luck in their respective cycles.