Am I insane? ND ($) v. Full Ride Forum

[ncls]

I've narrowed my decision down to two schools: ND w/ 18k per year scholarship and SLU with a full tuition scholarship. No stipulations on either outside of good academic standing. Am I insane to actually be considering SLU? (Although I'm leaning towards ND.)

I want to practice in St. Louis and really have no interest in practicing in any other city. I would like to practice corporate law of some kind (maybe securities). Quite simply, I'd be content with the best possible job in St. Louis.

There's no doubt ND would offer more doors nationally, but I'm not totally sure about in St. Louis. What do you think?

[gvaugn12]

Although SLU law is somewhat of a regional school, that shouldn't matter to you at all if you want to practice in St. Louis. I'm sure their alumni network in the city is strong, and you got a full ride. I say without a question, go to SLU. The scholly to ND is very tempting, but I think simply because you want to practice in St. Louis and you got a full ride that you should go to SLU. Graduating with as little debt as possible is huge--something that I myself find very important in this day and age.

[Great Satchmo]

Pragmatically, SLU is the way to go if you are sure you want to be there. Only COL debt has to be a nice feeling.

If I was in your shoes (and I'm not), I'd go to ND simply because the idea of going there, to me, is something I couldn't pass up. Maybe I'm a lame-o.

[ncls]

Anyone want to make an argument for ND?

[scionb4]

Did you not get into Washington University at Saint Louis? I would think that is you got into Notre Dame with a 17k scholarship, you'd have at least been given an offer by WashU.

[sluguy14]

Did you not get into Washington University at Saint Louis? I would think that is you got into Notre Dame with a 17k scholarship, you'd have at least been given an offer by WashU.

I agree. Did you apply to WUSTL? I realize you're set on working in St. Louis, but WUSTL would give you strong placement within the city and the flexibility to go somewhere else if you change your mind.

With that said... SLU is a no-brainer if you are absolutely certain you want to stay in St. Louis. Their alumni network within the city is second to none, and graduating with minimal (if any) debt takes a huge weight off your shoulders.

[CanadianWolf]

St. Louis University is clearly the better choice in your case. As a full tuition scholarship recipient you should be well positioned to graduate near the top of your class, make law review, and get strong references from your professors to local law firms.
Consider contacting the hiring partners at top St. Louis law firms to ask for their advice & opinions. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results from these contacts.

[scionb4]

Did you not get into Washington University at Saint Louis? I would think that is you got into Notre Dame with a 17k scholarship, you'd have at least been given an offer by WashU.

I agree. Did you apply to WUSTL? I realize you're set on working in St. Louis, but WUSTL would give you strong placement within the city and the flexibility to go somewhere else if you change your mind.

With that said... SLU is a no-brainer if you are absolutely certain you want to stay in St. Louis. Their alumni network within the city is second to none, and graduating with minimal (if any) debt takes a huge weight off your shoulders.

I agree with the second part of your statement. SLU has better placement in St. Louis than even the University of Missouri does, which is ranked much higher.

[TonyDigital]

If you're insane then I am too. I'm passing up in-state tuition at a Top30 to go to a regional Tier 3 school. Just so happens, that's the exact region I want to live and work in and a full scholarship.

There are "the rankings" then there are "your rankings". Just COL debt is awesome. Then again, I'm 30...jus paid off my credit cards and still have a mortgage hanging over my head. Debt sucks. Jus sayin...

[thisiswater1488]

.

[ncls]

I'm definitely starting to come around on SLU. And to answer the questions about WUSTL, I was placed on the "hold" list with a bunch of others yesterday, so probably not an option.

[cahesu]

ND with 18k a year!!! That's a pretty substantial scholarship.

Broaden your horizons. You'll still look attractive to the St. Louis market since you have a connection there, lived there, etc.

[ncls]

Shameless bump.

[DOS]

I have a friend, who went to a top 15 UG, who got into WUSTL and SLU (I assume with $$ but I never asked) and choose SLU since he wanted to stay in town and, as I suspect you know, WUSTL places surprisingly poorly for St. Louis.

Then despite his credentials he had grades only slightly above the median, and thus he did not have a job when he graduated. St. Louis has an advanced law infrastructure since it is home to many Fortune 500 and Bryan Cave, but even in good times only Detroit has a more stagnant legal market. St. Louis provides a good living for those with jobs, but offers very few new legal jobs for a city of its size since the importance of the metro area is shrinking not growing.

So going to SLU is a real gamble. On a side note, SLU is a very Catholic School (more so than ND law IMO) so make sure you are comfortable around that.

Finally, I hate to sound like a snob, but in 2008 I was at Midway Airport and there was a large advertisement for SLU law right in baggage pick-up. I do not consider that a good sign.

[BruceBarr]

I think your problem is how bad you want to stay in St. Louis...

[You Gotta Have Faith]

Although I would personally pick ND (given the decent scholly), if I were in your shoes SLU would seem like a reasonable option. If you KNOW you want St Louis, then SLU is a great place to be, especially as an 1843 Scholar. I forgot precisely what the stats are, but something like 48% of the attorneys in St Louis are SLU Law grads. So you will obviously have a built-in network for the city of your choice. And you'll graduate debt-free!

On a side note, if you do happen to still be interested in WUSTL, keep hanging on. Every year, they generally take people off of the wait list, particularly those who are persistent with visits and LOCIs. And oftentimes, a handful of those people get some money. But if it came to WUSTL with no help or the scholly you have at ND, I'd totally go with ND or the full ride at SLU.

I have a friend, who went to a top 15 UG, who got into WUSTL and SLU (I assume with $$ but I never asked) and choose SLU since he wanted to stay in town and, as I suspect you know, WUSTL places surprisingly poorly for St. Louis.

I'm sorry, but I must answer this. I do not think WUSTL places fewer people in St Louis for lack of ability. There just happen to be fewer at WUSTL who actually want to stay in St Louis. It actually places more people in Chicago than St Louis, so I wouldn't exactly say that any one city is its "feeder" market, though its presence in the Midwest is a bit stronger. Remember that only 15% of its class is from Missouri at all. Most of them leave for other places. Usually, the ones who stay do just fine as it's considered the upper-crust school around the St Louis area. Although their network isn't nearly as large as SLU's in the St Louis area, it certainly has a presence.

Finally, I hate to sound like a snob, but in 2008 I was at Midway Airport and there was a large advertisement for SLU law right in baggage pick-up. I do not consider that a good sign.

Haha, I do agree with this. The only rebuttal I can think of is mentioning that not too long ago, Harvard Business School was engaged in advertising a lot over the internet. Nonetheless, I was critical of it then as well and have never seen it as a great sign when a school has to advertise too much.

[stratocophic]

Go to SLU. If you are 100% certain you want to and will be in St. Louis (which is another matter entirely, but I can understand wanting to stay home), you have no reason to consider ND. Anyone telling you otherwise is most likely unfamiliar with the way St. Louis' legal market works. If you were looking at Michigan or Northwestern instead, sure. Arguments could be made for T14s, maybe even at sticker. However, it's likely that you'd be better off going to SLU for free over even WUSTL, given your goals. Stick with the dominant alumni network if you don't mind forfeiting the chance at Chicago or elsewhere.

[patrickd139]

Anyone want to make an argument for ND?

Yes. You'll be able to get a job when you graduate.

[stratocophic]

Anyone want to make an argument for ND?

Yes. You'll [strike]be able to get a job when you graduate.[/strike]end up with the same 35-50k job, but with 3 times as much debt and the exact same shot, if not worse, at BigStLouisLaw!

FTFY

[patrickd139]

Anyone want to make an argument for ND?

Yes. You'll [strike]be able to get a job when you graduate.[/strike]end up with the same 35-50k job, but with 3 times as much debt and the exact same shot, if not worse, at BigStLouisLaw!

FTFY

QFP

[stratocophic]

Anyone want to make an argument for ND?

Yes. You'll [strike]be able to get a job when you graduate.[/strike]end up with the same 35-50k job, but with 3 times as much debt and the exact same shot, if not worse, at BigStLouisLaw!

FTFY

QFP

From a UConn vs. W&L thread:

Do you want to work in CT or the D.C. area/VA? Pick one, go to the closest school geographically.

For consistency's sake, let's rephrase: does OP want to work in South Bend, IN/Chicago or St. Louis, MO? Pick one, go to the closest school geographically.

Full ride at a school that dominates the city OP wants to end up in vs. <50% at a Midwest regional school that caters mainly to Chicago. Considering that the top of ND's class can't get jobs out of OCI on their own merits at this point, I'd take the alumni network in the city I want to work in and the safety net of only having to pay for COL in the event of a crisis over... well... a higher ranking and not much else (for OP's purposes), personally. Any other situation, it's ND with no questions asked. For OP? No. A thousand times no.

[patrickd139]

GMU and UConn are peer schools.

ND and St. Louis Universittty are not.

xoxohth

[jcunni5]

Nd hands down I understand that u want to work in stl but everyone at slu will be gunning for the same jobs and st Louis is not that big of a market and frankly slu is pretty bad school especially compared to nd the choice u have IMO is no debt and no job at slu or debt and decent job outta nd although u might have to seek employment somewhere other than stl. I know ppl get jobs outta slu but I imagine their students are hurting pretty bad ITE

[stratocophic]

GMU and UConn are peer schools.

ND and St. Louis Universittty are not.

xoxohth

No shit, Sherlock. My points stand. The importance of peer status is irrelevant to the point of negligibility for these two schools in this context.

xoxohth

Edit: OP, FWIW, I'm not saying SLU is a slam dunk. ND will afford opportunities as well... but I'd carefully consider the alumni network (due to the ridiculous % of SLU grads represented within the St. Louis legal market) and the (potentially, perhaps even likely, pointless) difference in debt. Beyond that, 1843 scholars are very frequently at the top of SLU's class. You can't count on being at the top of the class at any school just because of a higher LSAT/GPA blah blah blah, but differences in LSAT scores also mean a lot more when the school's median is further down the percentage scale.

[patrickd139]

No shit, Sherlock. My points stand. The importance of peer status is irrelevant to the point of negligibility for these two schools in this context.

My apologies, I didn't realize that SLU was the golden ticket in St. Louis that you make it out to be. Which would explain why you're leaning towards WashU, instead of matriculating at SLU yourself (I think your quote was along the lines of "SLU for free is even a better bet than WashU"). Or does moving up those 3 spots in the rankings suddenly make peer schools relevant again? I'm confused.