My turn: OSU or MSU(full) Forum

[sarlis]

So I have finally narrowed down my choices to two schools, OSU and MSU.

I am an OSU UG and love columbus. But, I did not get a scholarship to OSU, making them $24,000 tuition a year.

MSU, on the other hand, gave me a full scholly. I visited there this past weekend and LOVED it. Their new Dean is heading the school in the absolute right direction, and they have a ton of clinical options and a great moot court and mock trial team (something I am very interested in).

I love OSU, but I may want something new, but then again I don't. So help me decide everyone.

I want to have the best biglaw job opportunities, so I guess it doesn't matter if I end up in MI or OH to practice.

What are you thoughts on this?

Thanks!

[cavebat2000]

benefits of going to OSU does not outweigh a FREE legal education, IMHO.

[sarlis]

Any other thoughts on this?

[keg411]

Stipulations on the MSU scholarship?

Even without I'm still inclined to say OSU.

[sarlis]

Stipulations on the MSU scholarship?

Even without I'm still inclined to say OSU.

to maintain a 3.0 GPA.

[keg411]

Stipulations on the MSU scholarship?

Even without I'm still inclined to say OSU.

to maintain a 3.0 GPA.

That doesn't help; what's % is a 3.0 at MSU?

[baboon309]

So I have finally narrowed down my choices to two schools, OSU and MSU.

I am an OSU UG and love columbus. But, I did not get a scholarship to OSU, making them $24,000 tuition a year.

MSU, on the other hand, gave me a full scholly. I visited there this past weekend and LOVED it. Their new Dean is heading the school in the absolute right direction, and they have a ton of clinical options and a great moot court and mock trial team (something I am very interested in).

I love OSU, but I may want something new, but then again I don't. So help me decide everyone.

I want to have the best biglaw job opportunities, so I guess it doesn't matter if I end up in MI or OH to practice.

What are you thoughts on this?

Thanks!

Even with the scholarship, I am still paying more than you do in the first year....

[sarlis]

So I have finally narrowed down my choices to two schools, OSU and MSU.

I am an OSU UG and love columbus. But, I did not get a scholarship to OSU, making them $24,000 tuition a year.

MSU, on the other hand, gave me a full scholly. I visited there this past weekend and LOVED it. Their new Dean is heading the school in the absolute right direction, and they have a ton of clinical options and a great moot court and mock trial team (something I am very interested in).

I love OSU, but I may want something new, but then again I don't. So help me decide everyone.

I want to have the best biglaw job opportunities, so I guess it doesn't matter if I end up in MI or OH to practice.

What are you thoughts on this?

Thanks!

Even with the scholarship, I am still paying more than you do in the first year....

haha, touche.

[lsathelp]

OSU all the way!

[sarlis]

Murray State has a law school?

I'll take that as a vote for OSU

[Z3RO]

I was the first person to vote for OSU, and I'm glad to see that other people agree with me.

Seriously, OSU can get you a decent job in Cleveland, Cincinnati or Columbus. MSU might get you a job in Detroit?

[Puffy]

Magic Johnson went to Michigan State.

[sarlis]

Stipulations on the MSU scholarship?

Even without I'm still inclined to say OSU.

to maintain a 3.0 GPA.

That doesn't help; what's % is a 3.0 at MSU?

i think that is top 40-50%

[sarlis]

I was the first person to vote for OSU, and I'm glad to see that other people agree with me.

Seriously, OSU can get you a decent job in Cleveland, Cincinnati or Columbus. MSU might get you a job in Detroit?

what about jobs in Lansing, the state capitol?

[84Sunbird2000]

For BigLaw opportunities, OSU wins in a landslide, they place 3-4x as much into those firms as MSU. Now, that is not to say that MSU won't close that gap to some degree over the next several years, but it does mean that the current alumni base in such firms is much stronger at OSU.

Plus, if you want to do a risk management equation, the dean told me that 75% of MSU full scholly recipients retain them all three years. Thus, assuming 80% of full scholly students retain them after 1L and an additional 5% lost them after 2L, the value of Michigan State's scholarship would come out to around 85% of its possible value (thus about 15k less than a good standing full ride). Now, I don't mean to infer that you would lose it or should project losing it, but simply as an equation looking at oneself from the outside in a cold, calculating manner.

So, assuming that, with COL similar between the schools, I'd calculate OSU as 60k more expensive. However, with a higher median salary at higher reporting percentages and larger shot at BigLaw, then I'd say that (based on another level of risk management equations) that OSU would come out ahead in projections 4 years out of school

However, all that aside, MSU very likely leaves you with smaller debt coming out. Both schools are not BigLaw powerhouses, so less debt means that a job at a government firm (unless you want to stay in that job for 10 years and use IBR) or smaller private firm will be much easier to take.

If it comes down (as an ultimatum) to large firms or bust, then OSU by a mile.

[ndpfn]

I don't know much about tOSU, but I would assume that it's got a great rep in Columbus and around the state in terms of firm placement.

MSU, from what I undertand, does really well in Grand Rapids (supposedly the new "best" city in MI), but I think it's definitely a struggle to get much outside the state. It's a really attractive option both because it's free and because, I think anyway, it's a school that has the ability to outperform its current status as a T3 (good study abroad options, clinics and externships, decent placement around MI). It's a school that really has a lot going for it right now and is working hard to attract better students.

The safe choice is probably tOSU, but MSU for free is not a bad option at all.

[llama11]

Good luck telling Spartans you come from Ohio State. But seriously, MSU has a program that has a lot of interest for me and by all accounts is on the up-and-up (super niche market), but ultimately I've been resoundingly advised not to go there (that's where I did UG). Before doing a lot of research into law school I would have considered MSU, but probably not so much now. Granted, I'm a URM so I've got options beyond my numbers and the thought of living in EL another three years isn't exciting either. Don't get me wrong, it was great for undergrad but I wouldn't want to go to law school there. Too many distractions and not enough housing close to the school that isn't party all the time.

[sarlis]

any other opinions?

[XxSpyKEx]

any other opinions?

Yeah. OSU sucks!

--ImageRemoved--

EDIT: I actually read your OP now, and I'll post something more substantive: don't pay sticker at OSU. $24K tuition means you will be paying around $40K /year to attend OSU when you figure in cost of living, books, health insurance, etc or $120K total in debt. From my understanding, OSU got pwnd the worst out of all the big ten schools (I really have nothing backing this up, but that's what I've read on blogs and shit). In any event, even if you figure OSU will do just as well in biglaw as UIUC or ND then that would leave you with roughly a 10% shot at biglaw (which is the % of the class that placed in biglaw at UIUC & ND). That's absolutely horrible odds. You might be better off just taking that $120K and going to Vegas. I'm not saying MSU for free is a great bargain either (you will still be out $45K for cost of living, books, health insurance, etc) but definitely apply to other schools and/or re-take the LSAT and get into a t13 (which is probably the only places where paying sticker in this economy would be justifiable).

[sarlis]

EDIT: I actually read your OP now, and I'll post something more substantive: don't pay sticker at OSU. $24K tuition means you will be paying around $40K /year to attend OSU when you figure in cost of living, books, health insurance, etc or $120K total in debt. From my understanding, OSU got pwnd the worst out of all the big ten schools (I really have nothing backing this up, but that's what I've read on blogs and shit). In any event, even if you figure OSU will do just as well in biglaw as UIUC or ND then that would leave you with roughly a 10% shot at biglaw (which is the % of the class that placed in biglaw at UIUC & ND). That's absolutely horrible odds. You might be better off just taking that $120K and going to Vegas. I'm not saying MSU for free is a great bargain either (you will still be out $45K for cost of living, books, health insurance, etc) but definitely apply to other schools and/or re-take the LSAT and get into a t13 (which is probably the only places where paying sticker in this economy would be justifiable).

does anyone else agree with this. It seems that the prospects for BigLaw are better from OSU, although not t14 prospects by any stretch. Also, wouldn't the debt at OSU be justified by the better job prospects in general?

[the lantern]

You are talking about a lot of money for a very very small increase in biglaw prospects. They might take a couple more people from OSU than they do from MSU (read: not taking very much from either school). If you are basing your decision solely on the biglaw factor, it is ridiculous to spend 24k more a year for only a marginal increase in chances at a biglaw spot. If I were in your situation and I had to make a decision in the exact same situation, I"d choose OSU for a lot of reasons, but biglaw is not one of them (because both schools have pretty much the same shot at biglaw: virtually none, or at least that is the way you should look at it).

[84Sunbird2000]

OSU, for the somewhat down year of 2009, placed 16% into NLJ 250. Since there are some firms outside of that that might still pay pretty well (bigger law firms that are perhaps single offices in the various mid-sized Ohio cities), 20% might be a realistic estimate for BigLaw or that resembling it in terms of office structure and higher pay. It's definitely well above 10% placement, and in up economies, it's over 20% NLJ 250.

The increase is small in one sense (10-15% more placement than MSU), but unless you get into a T14, less than 50% is still going into BigLaw. Even then, one must always take into account that NOT EVERYONE WANTS BIGLAW. I very much doubt that, even if I finished Top 5% at whatever school I go to, I'd take BigLaw. I'm not alone in this - some still want PI, PD, ADA, Clerkships (NOT always taken in order to go into BigLaw as a 2nd Year Associate). If the proportion of people who want or would take BigLaw to those that don't is...say....70:30 (and it clearly varies by school - re: Yale), then you can probably calculate a rough placement probability. So, if OSU stays at its lower 2009 rate of 16% placement, then you might guess that around top 25% would give you a shot, maybe 30-35% in an up year. At MSU, it would probably be more like top 10%.

Either way, BigLaw is not something to count on, but (assuming your chance at any class rank are the same at each school) your odds of being competitive for BigLaw at OSU are probably 50-75% of your chance of retaining your full ride at MSU after 1L.

[baboon309]

any other opinions?

Yeah. OSU sucks!

--ImageRemoved--

[strike]EDIT: I actually read your OP now, and I'll post something more substantive: don't pay sticker at OSU. $24K tuition means you will be paying around $40K /year to attend OSU when you figure in cost of living, books, health insurance, etc or $120K total in debt. From my understanding, OSU got pwnd the worst out of all the big ten schools (I really have nothing backing this up, but that's what I've read on blogs and shit). In any event, even if you figure OSU will do just as well in biglaw as UIUC or ND then that would leave you with roughly a 10% shot at biglaw (which is the % of the class that placed in biglaw at UIUC & ND). That's absolutely horrible odds. You might be better off just taking that $120K and going to Vegas. I'm not saying MSU for free is a great bargain either (you will still be out $45K for cost of living, books, health insurance, etc) but definitely apply to other schools and/or re-take the LSAT and get into a t13 (which is probably the only places where paying sticker in this economy would be justifiable).

[/strike]

Dude knows nothing. You'll be paying about 1k for loan payment every month with 120k debt coming out of law school.
It`s actually pretty manageable even with 70k salary. After tax +( tax returns), your net income will be about 50-55k.
Since you'll be paying 1k a month, your disposable income will fall between 38-43k .

So what kind of life will that be?

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofli ... iving.html

43k in columbus = 100k(which is very close to the disposable income of those 160k associates in NYC )

I think that you'll be fine if you manage to graduate top 50%.

The following are 2008 data from the OSU website
-----------------------------------
Employment Type No. Average Salary
Private Practice (Overall) 108 $104,245
Solo 4 N/A
2-10 Attorneys 21 $49,250
11-25 Attorneys 9 $75,444
26-50 Attorneys 6 $96,600
51-100 Attorneys 4 $83,250
101-250 Attorneys 16 $103,630
251-500 Attorneys 16 $126,875
501+ Attorneys 21 $142,619
Government (Overall) 35 $45,568
Judicial Clerkship (Overall) 12 $50,668
Business or Industry (Overall) 28 $71,354
Public Interest 6 $39,375
Average Starting Salary $84,304

[XxSpyKEx]

OSU, for the somewhat down year of 2009, placed 16% into NLJ 250. Since there are some firms outside of that that might still pay pretty well (bigger law firms that are perhaps single offices in the various mid-sized Ohio cities), 20% might be a realistic estimate for BigLaw or that resembling it in terms of office structure and higher pay. It's definitely well above 10% placement, and in up economies, it's over 20% NLJ 250.

The increase is small in one sense (10-15% more placement than MSU), but unless you get into a T14, less than 50% is still going into BigLaw. Even then, one must always take into account that NOT EVERYONE WANTS BIGLAW. I very much doubt that, even if I finished Top 5% at whatever school I go to, I'd take BigLaw. I'm not alone in this - some still want PI, PD, ADA, Clerkships (NOT always taken in order to go into BigLaw as a 2nd Year Associate). If the proportion of people who want or would take BigLaw to those that don't is...say....70:30 (and it clearly varies by school - re: Yale), then you can probably calculate a rough placement probability. So, if OSU stays at its lower 2009 rate of 16% placement, then you might guess that around top 25% would give you a shot, maybe 30-35% in an up year. At MSU, it would probably be more like top 10%.

Either way, BigLaw is not something to count on, but (assuming your chance at any class rank are the same at each school) your odds of being competitive for BigLaw at OSU are probably 50-75% of your chance of retaining your full ride at MSU after 1L.

I think the bolded pretty much sums it up. The problem is if you are paying $120K to attend law school, you have to get biglaw to pay it back comfortably. If you leave law school making $45K /year, then post-taxes that leaves you with just over $30k /year in your hands. And your loan repayments will be around $18k /year (assuming a typical 10 year repayment). You can’t do that. There’s always IBR and the 25 year repayment, but that’s definitely not something you should plan on utilizing. Then there’s PI, but if you’re not a PI person, planning on doing something for 10 year just to repay your loans is insane.

Also, I wanted to add 84Sunbird2000 numbers are entirely too optimistic. We are in the middle of a recession right now. If GULC is placing roughly 25% of its class in NJL250 firms, then 20% of OSU is NOT able to make biglaw. That 16% number should scare you. That was in 2009, which is a class that did their OCI in 2007. 2009 numbers at schools like UIUC were roughly 40% (according to dean pless anyway, I’d say probably closer to a 1/3 when you factor in people who didn’t reply to the survey). If UIUC is at 10%, just think about where OSU is in terms of biglaw..

any other opinions?

Yeah. OSU sucks!

--ImageRemoved--

[strike]EDIT: I actually read your OP now, and I'll post something more substantive: don't pay sticker at OSU. $24K tuition means you will be paying around $40K /year to attend OSU when you figure in cost of living, books, health insurance, etc or $120K total in debt. From my understanding, OSU got pwnd the worst out of all the big ten schools (I really have nothing backing this up, but that's what I've read on blogs and shit). In any event, even if you figure OSU will do just as well in biglaw as UIUC or ND then that would leave you with roughly a 10% shot at biglaw (which is the % of the class that placed in biglaw at UIUC & ND). That's absolutely horrible odds. You might be better off just taking that $120K and going to Vegas. I'm not saying MSU for free is a great bargain either (you will still be out $45K for cost of living, books, health insurance, etc) but definitely apply to other schools and/or re-take the LSAT and get into a t13 (which is probably the only places where paying sticker in this economy would be justifiable).

[/strike]

Dude knows nothing. You'll be paying about 1k for loan payment every month with 120k debt coming out of law school.
It`s actually pretty manageable even with 70k salary. After tax +( tax returns), your net income will be about 50-55k.
Since you'll be paying 1k a month, your disposable income will fall between 38-43k .

So what kind of life will that be?

http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofli ... iving.html

43k in columbus = 100k(which is very close to the disposable income of those 160k associates in NYC )

I think that you'll be fine if you manage to graduate top 50%.

The following are 2008 data from the OSU website
-----------------------------------
Employment Type No. Average Salary
Private Practice (Overall) 108 $104,245
Solo 4 N/A
2-10 Attorneys 21 $49,250
11-25 Attorneys 9 $75,444
26-50 Attorneys 6 $96,600
51-100 Attorneys 4 $83,250
101-250 Attorneys 16 $103,630
251-500 Attorneys 16 $126,875
501+ Attorneys 21 $142,619
Government (Overall) 35 $45,568
Judicial Clerkship (Overall) 12 $50,668
Business or Industry (Overall) 28 $71,354
Public Interest 6 $39,375
Average Starting Salary $84,304

I love it when 0Ls try to call me out, and cite to the school’s website to back themselves up. Guess what? Virtually every single law school in the country reports a median salary of $160K. OSU is at least a little bit more honest, but simply looking at these numbers you can tell the odds aren’t great. For 1) there was a 70% reporting rate, so you can assume those bottom 30% worked at the local McDonald’s or mopping jizz off the floors in a porn preview shops (that’s how it is everywhere with unreported salaries). Then you have this massive 28 people that reported “business.” Guess what? Contrary to the typical 0L, business does NOT mean working at Mckinsey or I-banking, but actually means that “these were bums that could not find legal work at all” and ended up doing stuff like mopping jizz off the floors in a porn preview shops. Sure a few people went back to their old jobs, and pulled that average up, but that doesn’t even mean that the average jizz mopper is now making $71K leaving OSU. Also, notice how they use an “average” for all their salaries, and not a median, which suggested that the data points were skewed.

For biglaw, notice that a total of 37 students ended up at anything in the realm of being called biglaw. That’s 37 out of 216 graduates or roughly 17%. If you want to talk real biglaw (as in firms over 500) then that’s 21 out of 216 or 9.7%. And that’s 2008 numbers, so a class that OCI’d in 2006, when things were really good. Firms were hiring down to the bottom third of my class in 2006. Trust me, things have changed. I would not pay $120K for a 9.7-17% shot at biglaw in 2008, and I certainly would not pay $120K for what amount to probably a 5% shot (if that) at biglaw currently (you have to figure OSU did at least significantly worse than UIUC or ND, and their numbers were around 10%).

Additionally, you’re smoking crack if you think top 50% at OSU is going to get you a $70K /year job. There are 3Ls at my t10, with decent grades, that would kill for a $70K /year job right now. I actually would be surprised if median 2Ls at OSU has any kind of paying legal employment lined up at all this summer because I know median at schools like Notre Dame don’t (hell, even people below the median at my school couldn’t find any kind of paying legal employment for the summer). And guess what? 2L OCI is pretty much the only shot you have at working in biglaw, so that means all these people that got boned this year are very likely to never get biglaw.

Also, I have no idea where this clown comes up with this “1k for loan payment every month with 120k debt coming out of law school” thing. That is just absurd. Just run the numbers. 120K /year will leave you with roughly an aggregate interest rate of 8% (with Stafford + gradPLUS). 120K * 8% = $9.6K in interest your first year out of law school alone. I just ran this through my financial calculator and your exact payments on a $120K loan at 8% interest with a 10 year repayment schedule comes out to: $17,883.54 per year.

[baboon309]

[

Also, I have no idea where this clown comes up with this “1k for loan payment every month with 120k debt coming out of law school” thing. That is just absurd. Just run the numbers. 120K /year will leave you with roughly an aggregate interest rate of 8% (with Stafford + gradPLUS). 120K * 8% = $9.6K in interest your first year out of law school alone. I just ran this through my financial calculator and your exact payments on a $120K loan at 8% interest with a 10 year repayment schedule comes out to: $17,883.54 per year.

lol. Now you are talking like a TTT financial advisor. If you wanna learn more about finance, just PM me.
Btw, I was talking about 25 years repayment plan.