Wake Forest v UNC for NLJ 250 Forum

[traehekat]

Wake Forest placed 20% (30/150) of their 2009 graduates into NLJ 250 firms, whereas as UNC placed 15% (34/227). Given this, would it be foolish to take UNC over Wake Forest if you are going for BigLaw? I'm not a North Carolina resident, and it is difficult to gain residency in NC, so I would be paying OOS tuition all three years at UNC. I'm guessing the difference in cost over three years will be about $15,000 at Wake Forest.

I've always been under the impression UNC has a stellar reputation in the state (some would say even better than Duke's), but perhaps this is more in reference to government and public interest work? Do Wake Forest graduates really outshine UNC graduates, or is it perhaps the case there are students at UNC who have the option to go into BigLaw but choose government/public interest because of the school's reputation?

[patrickd139]

Wake Forest placed 20% (30/150) of their 2009 graduates into NLJ 250 firms, whereas as UNC placed 15% (34/227). Given this, would it be foolish to take UNC over Wake Forest if you are going for BigLaw? I'm not a North Carolina resident, and it is difficult to gain residency in NC, so I would be paying OOS tuition all three years at UNC. I'm guessing the difference in cost over three years will be about $15,000 at Wake Forest.

I've always been under the impression UNC has a stellar reputation in the state (some would say even better than Duke's), but perhaps this is more in reference to government and public interest work? Do Wake Forest graduates really outshine UNC graduates, or is it perhaps the case there are students at UNC who have the option to go into BigLaw but choose government/public interest because of the school's reputation?

I have nothing to say to the above, other than please don't go to either school expecting biglaw. Especially at sticker.

[traehekat]

Wake Forest placed 20% (30/150) of their 2009 graduates into NLJ 250 firms, whereas as UNC placed 15% (34/227). Given this, would it be foolish to take UNC over Wake Forest if you are going for BigLaw? I'm not a North Carolina resident, and it is difficult to gain residency in NC, so I would be paying OOS tuition all three years at UNC. I'm guessing the difference in cost over three years will be about $15,000 at Wake Forest.

I've always been under the impression UNC has a stellar reputation in the state (some would say even better than Duke's), but perhaps this is more in reference to government and public interest work? Do Wake Forest graduates really outshine UNC graduates, or is it perhaps the case there are students at UNC who have the option to go into BigLaw but choose government/public interest because of the school's reputation?

I have nothing to say to the above, other than please don't go to either school expecting biglaw. Especially at sticker.

Well, do you mean don't expect to go to either school and hit 20% or 15%, or don't expect even 20% at Wake and 15% at UNC to get you BigLaw?

Another thing to consider, which was pointed out to me by another user, is the class size of Wake and UNC. Wake's class size is around 154 while UNC's is 235. Here are the number of partners, associates, and council members at the top firms in North Carolina...

Womble Carlyle: WFU 68; UNC 62

Brooks Pierce: WFU 19; UNC 27

Kilpatric Stockton: WFU 21; UNC 11

Smith Moore: WFU 32; UNC 27

Parker Poe: WFU 24; UNC 50

Poyner and Spruill: WFU 30; UNC 39

While only 194 out of the 410 total partners, associates, and council members are Wake graduates (about 47%), only 154 out of the 389 graduates from both Wake and UNC are from Wake (about 39%). So, relative to their class size, Wake is doing better than UNC, even in NC. While this is sort of another way of saying the data previously presented, this also shows that contrary to the belief of some, Wake graduates are not outperforming UNC graduates in NLJ 250 place because of markets outside of North Carolina - they are actually outperforming them in the state of North Carolina as well.

[jakeoooh]

I voted for Wake. As an NC resident, my choice would obviously be much different because of the sticker prices of each school, but objectively I do think that the small class size at Wake gives you an advantage over UNC. Also, because it's a fairly wealthy private school, I think Wake has more resources available with career services, etc. than UNC does.

[patrickd139]

Wake Forest placed 20% (30/150) of their 2009 graduates into NLJ 250 firms, whereas as UNC placed 15% (34/227). Given this, would it be foolish to take UNC over Wake Forest if you are going for BigLaw? I'm not a North Carolina resident, and it is difficult to gain residency in NC, so I would be paying OOS tuition all three years at UNC. I'm guessing the difference in cost over three years will be about $15,000 at Wake Forest.

I've always been under the impression UNC has a stellar reputation in the state (some would say even better than Duke's), but perhaps this is more in reference to government and public interest work? Do Wake Forest graduates really outshine UNC graduates, or is it perhaps the case there are students at UNC who have the option to go into BigLaw but choose government/public interest because of the school's reputation?

I have nothing to say to the above, other than please don't go to either school expecting biglaw. Especially at sticker.

[strike]Well, do you mean[/strike]don't expect to go to either school and hit 20% or 15%,[strike]or don't expect even 20% at Wake and 15% at UNC to get you BigLaw?

Another thing to consider, which was pointed out to me by another user, is the class size of Wake and UNC. Wake's class size is around 154 while UNC's is 235. Here are the number of partners, associates, and council members at the top firms in North Carolina...

Womble Carlyle: WFU 68; UNC 62

Brooks Pierce: WFU 19; UNC 27

Kilpatric Stockton: WFU 21; UNC 11

Smith Moore: WFU 32; UNC 27

Parker Poe: WFU 24; UNC 50

Poyner and Spruill: WFU 30; UNC 39

While only 194 out of the 410 total partners, associates, and council members are Wake graduates (about 47%), only 154 out of the 389 graduates from both Wake and UNC are from Wake (about 39%). So, relative to their class size, Wake is doing better than UNC, even in NC. While this is sort of another way of saying the data previously presented, this also shows that contrary to the belief of some, Wake graduates are not outperforming UNC graduates in NLJ 250 place because of markets outside of North Carolina - they are actually outperforming them in the state of North Carolina as well.[/strike]

[T14_Scholly]

$160,000

[Auroch]

Are NLJ250 and BigLaw the same thing?

[84Sunbird2000]

Umm, I'd just like to point out that 20 percent NLJ250 doesn't mean you need top 20%. It would help, obviously, but not nearly everyone who does well in law school wants BigLaw. Some people who do well want PD, ADA, PI, or want to go back and work for their family firm or even some mid-sized firm that they interned or externed at and really liked. Moreover, a few of the people who do well and want BigLaw are probably going to give bad interviews or have holes in their approach to searching for employment. Thus, if you get top 33% or even 40% at Wake, I think you'd have a SHOT - not a guarantee - but a shot.

[Matteliszt]

I have nothing to say to the above, other than please don't go to either school expecting biglaw. Especially at sticker.

How does paying sticker factor into the question? His question wasn't "What are my chances at getting big law at Wake v UNC" He obviously knows what the statistical placement of both schools are. Traehekat asked two questions.

Given this[20% placement vs 15% placement], would it be foolish to take UNC over Wake Forest if you are going for BigLaw?

and

Do Wake Forest graduates really outshine UNC graduates, or is it perhaps the case there are students at UNC who have the option to go into BigLaw but choose government/public interest because of the school's reputation?

I also think it's unfair to say he wont place top 10-20% in his class when it had nothing to do with his question.

To Traehekat,
I think that either school is good for the North Carolina market. Charlotte has a fair amount of firms and is a fairly strong business center. I would, as other posters have said, figure out the debt at one vs the debt at the other. I don't know the answer to your two questions, and am eager to see what others have to say(as I am in a similar situation)

[patrickd139]

I have nothing to say to the above, other than please don't go to either school expecting biglaw. Especially at sticker.

How does paying sticker factor into the question? His question wasn't "What are my chances at getting big law at Wake v UNC" He obviously knows what the statistical placement of both schools are. Traehekat asked two questions.

Given this[20% placement vs 15% placement], would it be foolish to take UNC over Wake Forest if you are going for BigLaw?

and

Do Wake Forest graduates really outshine UNC graduates, or is it perhaps the case there are students at UNC who have the option to go into BigLaw but choose government/public interest because of the school's reputation?

I also think it's unfair to say he wont place top 10-20% in his class when it had nothing to do with his question.

To Traehekat,
I think that either school is good for the North Carolina market. Charlotte has a fair amount of firms and is a fairly strong business center. I would, as other posters have said, figure out the debt at one vs the debt at the other. I don't know the answer to your two questions, and am eager to see what others have to say(as I am in a similar situation)

How do you say the bolded, and then, in your message to the OP, attack the same premise I did? Debt load has everything to do with being able to stay solvent post-graduation. Taking on $150k+ in loans is an asinine idea, IMO, for a 15-20% chance to obtain the earnings potential to pay it off and still live a comfortable lifestyle. On the contrary, taking out ~$30k in student loans for the same prospects is a different calculus.

Further, I think it's foolish for anyone to go to any law school expecting to place into the top 10-20% of their class. I definitely don't know enough about the OP to make such a prediction; even less so was I attacking him/her in some way. Your post seems very 0L-esque, which a quick glance at your profile confirms.

Finally, I answered his original post by saying that I didn't have an opinion about his original question. Instead, I offered some unsolicited advice from the other side by someone who had faced a similar decision.

[Matteliszt]

I didn't understand your post as the same point I was making, I read it as "Don't go to either school expecting to place well or get a job", which I thought was bleak and unfair. I wasn't intending to make a post hating on you or anything, nor do I disagree with what you are saying now that it has been clarified to me. Sorry to make it sound otherwise.

[traehekat]

Let me just say I am aware that it is difficult to obtain top 15-20% at ANY school, and you shouldn't assume you will be in that position. That said, I was merely asking which school gives you a higher probability of actually having the option to start out in a NLJ 250 firm.

Sunbird, I thought about that too, and I sort of alluded to it when I mentioned there are probably some top UNC students who head into other fields. However, I'm not sure of those numbers so I am kind of just working with what I have.

Also, I am aware the difference in debt load would factor into the decision. I guess I should have clarified by say something like, all things being equal, and given the presented information, which would you choose for BigLaw?